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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jun 2017 at 16:20
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Vanuatu



Now, looking at the Pacific Islanders, allegedly arriving from Taiwan, a Chinese Island, by sea. Most Chinese/Taiwanese, AFAIK, are small in stature compared to the average European. What admixture has been added to the Fijians, Tongans etc, who really are massive people?

As for my being and interesting mixture, it's all because of my genetic mixture.LOL

The large islanders look more like Australian Aboriginal people than they do Asians. Are Aboriginal people large in stature? They appear so in pictures.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jun 2017 at 02:09
Vanuatu

Now, looking at the Pacific Islanders, allegedly arriving from Taiwan, a Chinese Island, by sea. Most Chinese/Taiwanese, AFAIK, are small in stature compared to the average European. What admixture has been added to the Fijians, Tongans etc, who really are massive people?

As for my being and interesting mixture, it's all because of my genetic mixture.LOL
[/QUOTE]

The large islanders look more like Australian Aboriginal people than they do Asians. Are Aboriginal people large in stature? They appear so in pictures.

No


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[/QUOTE]
No, The Pacific Islanders bear no resemblance at all to Australian Aborigines, whose nearest genetic relations are Papua New Guineans.

Excuse me for using the term "pure blood" young aborigines are predominantly fairly slender, but at the same time muscular, wiry. Not tall and large framed like Tongans and Fijians.

Don't forget that the Australian Aborigines are the last of the Iron Age people, and were undisturbed until the arrival of whites in 1788. There was minor contact with white sea voyagers and Indonesian fisherman on our north coast, but no interbreeding.

Are there any pockets of ancient Viking YDNA along the East Coast of the USA?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jun 2017 at 15:10
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:



The large islanders look more like Australian Aboriginal people than they do Asians. Are Aboriginal people large in stature? They appear so in pictures.

No


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[/QUOTE]
No, The Pacific Islanders bear no resemblance at all to Australian Aborigines, whose nearest genetic relations are Papua New Guineans.

Excuse me for using the term "pure blood" young aborigines are predominantly fairly slender, but at the same time muscular, wiry. Not tall and large framed like Tongans and Fijians.

Don't forget that the Australian Aborigines are the last of the Iron Age people, and were undisturbed until the arrival of whites in 1788. There was minor contact with white sea voyagers and Indonesian fisherman on our north coast, but no interbreeding.

Are there any pockets of ancient Viking YDNA along the East Coast of the USA?
[/QUOTE]

I tried searching for that, all roads lead back to Europe. I read that 1 in 33 people have Viking DNA so it must include people in the US with European background.

Recently saw some video of Samoans and now that you have said it I can see the resemblance to the Papua New Guinea people. Now, on Vanuatu they appear tall and slender again unlike the Tongans but with faces like the Australian Aborigines.  The Aborigines didn't travel by boat as far as I know. 

What do you know about sea travel among Aborigines?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jun 2017 at 02:58
Because Australian Aborigines had no written language, there is no history to learn from.

It's thought that they migrated down the Indonesian archipelago by foot, possibly using logs in some small crossings that were to deep. Of course this was all before the sea rose.

Tongans and Fijians are of a different race, as are the Bouganvillians who live just off the coast of New Guinea, and who have been fighting for independance for years.

When you write aabout the Viking YDNA in American people, is that ancient DNA or as the result of incomers during the 17th and 18th centuries?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jun 2017 at 03:34
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Because Australian Aborigines had no written language, there is no history to learn from.

It's thought that they migrated down the Indonesian archipelago by foot, possibly using logs in some small crossings that were to deep. Of course this was all before the sea rose.

Tongans and Fijians are of a different race, as are the Bouganvillians who live just off the coast of New Guinea, and who have been fighting for independance for years.

When you write aabout the Viking YDNA in American people, is that ancient DNA or as the result of incomers during the 17th and 18th centuries?



That would be the descendants of European settlers. There are theories about Vikings making it all the way across the continental US. Runic symbols across the country including Narragansett, Rhode Island are of great interest.
Quidnessett Rock:

  

Intense interest

Minnesota-based geologist Scott Wolter, host of the History Channel show “America Unearthed,” who has researched the stone for nearly 15 years and is set to make a presentation to the North Kingstown Town Council on Tuesday, calls the stone and its story the “greatest one that’s never been told.”

North Kingstown town historian Tim Cranston agrees that the stone is an important artifact and that its origins, though hotly debated, are a mystery. “The whole thing, the stone, the history, the story, is very exciting for us,” he said.

Very exciting may be an understatement for Wolter: “This is simply the greatest, biggest national, no, international, story. All the evidence is there, it’s just been overlooked.”

Researchers and students from as far away as Iceland and Sweden who have studied the runes inscribed on the stone are convinced that the carvings were done by Viking explorers well before the arrival of Columbus.

http://www.thewesterlysun.com/news/latestnews/5415769-129/fabled-rune-stone-returning-to-public-view.html

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jun 2017 at 06:07
Yes, the original inhabitants of Europe, and I daresay the Americas and Asia were all from the Out of Africa Great Migration, whether it was the first or later migrations, whether by coast or inland.

The other questions to be asked is how much Neanderthal DNA and Denisovan DNA do Europeans carry? 

They were in Europe before the Homo Sapiens Sapiens or what is commonly called Anatomically Modern Humans (AMH). So far scientists have found some, but I wonder just how much of the earlier DNA exists.

More recently, the Out of Africa theory has been challenged by an Out of Iberia theory. I'll wait to see what the outcome of that is.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jun 2017 at 04:08
Someday they'll be able to trace the DNA back to the first paramecium (or even the first single mecium)<grin>  Just don't hold your breath.

There is some account that says that there was a human die off and genetic bottleneck, 50,000 ybp or something like that. Do you know anything about that toyomotor?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jun 2017 at 08:10
toyomotor, what about the DNA of the Basque people found among Native Americans? Would you comment on that please?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jun 2017 at 09:31
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Quote There is some account that says that there was a human die off and genetic bottleneck, 50,000 ybp or something like that. Do you know anything about that toyomotor?

Not a lot. Read the web site maintained by Dienekes Ponticles. I think he wrote an article about it. I think the bottle neck occured in Europe, I'll need to refresh my memory.

Vanuatu
Quote toyomotor, what about the DNA of the Basque people found among Native Americans? Would you comment on that please?

This is a curious one. Genetically the Basque people are linked to the Ainu, Japans Aborigines. this, AFAIK, could have only occurred due to the Great Coastal Migration when a group broke away and travelled inland-Iberia.

I think at some later stage, they probably joined a migrating group over the Beringian Land Bridge, and so on to the Americas, but all of them had the Basque gene of course.

I think the Basques carry the YDNA E Haplogroup which an off shoot of the D Haplogroup which exclusively Japanese (Ainu) and Andamese.

Work is still being done on the Basques, their DNA and language.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jun 2017 at 17:00
Vanuatu
You will have realised that I simplified the story of the Basques. They're not Spanish, their language is a Proto Indo/European (PIE) which indicates that they originated in Eastern Europe, and possibly as far away as the Pontic Steppe.

In the great movements of people that took place, they eventually settled in Spain. It's possible that some, instead of going west, went east instead over the land bridge.

Many of the DNA curiosities that have been found have been attributed to back migration, back into Africa, or at least part of the way, and in some cases back again, bringing new DNA sub-clades with them.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jul 2017 at 04:27
I found this article on the Dienekes Anthropological Blog Page, it's only the first part of a longer paper that I recommend.
Quote

Deepest Neandertal mtDNA split

The authors interpret the new result from HST as placing a lower boundary on an introgression from Africans to Neandertals at more than 290kya, which explains why Africans are genomically closer to Neandertals than to Denisovans.

Of course, when one looks at the mitochondrial phylogeny, it has the form:

(Denisovans, (Neandertals, Modern Humans))

Within the Modern Humans, Eurasians are a branch of a tree which is mostly African. This has been interpreted for decades as evidence for the Out of Africa hypothesis for the origin of Modern Humans. But, within the phylogeny as a whole, Modern Humans are a branch of the Eurasian tree. This has not (why?) in general been interpreted as evidence for Out of Eurasia for the common ancestor of Modern Humans and Neandertals.

It seems to me that this hypothesis, that Modern Humans and Neandertals stem from a non-African ancestor (a non-African population of H. heidelbergensis, for example), has much to recommend it.

Eurasia has twice the size of Africa and has been home to hominins for ~1.8 million years. It was inhabited by diverse hominins, and thanks to blind luck we discovered that as late as a few tens of thousands years ago, it also sported two of the populations that split off before anyone else: first H. floresiensis, and second Denisovans.

While a North African source of modern humans is plausible, the data seems to favor a Eurasian origin of the (Modern Human, Neandertal) ancestor.

Nature Communications 8, Article number: 16046 (2017) doi:10.1038/ncomms16046


http://dienekes.blogspot.com.au/
The  paper suggest a more likely origin for AMH is Eurasia rather than Africa!





Edited by toyomotor - 05 Jul 2017 at 04:28
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jul 2017 at 04:56
Vanuatu

If memory serves me correctly, and, at my age it sometimes doesn't, in an earlier post you mentioned a backlog or blockage of DNA at some earlier stage.

I've forgotten where and when. I was trying to research it more.

Would you please invigorate these old grey cells by reminding me what you wrote?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jul 2017 at 05:53
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Vanuatu

If memory serves me correctly, and, at my age it sometimes doesn't, in an earlier post you mentioned a backlog or blockage of DNA at some earlier stage.

I've forgotten where and when. I was trying to research it more.

Would you please invigorate these old grey cells by reminding me what you wrote?



I think it was thread relating to animal diversity in the wild. The same implications apply. Anthropologists theorize that they were many bottlenecks throughout history. It's when the diversity of DNA is reduced bc of dwindling populations, disease or other losses that wipe out significant portions of a population. 

These bottle necks can reduce the alleles being passed through the mtDNA and the appearance of the alternative forms of gene mutation are reduced. Both desirable and undesirable traits. 

These bottleneck events seem to explain the diversity among human beings. The bottleneck events also support the possible "Out of Eurasia" theory. The descendants of only one female haplo group are found outside of Africa (mtDNA haplo group 3). They say only 2,000 mating pairs made the first walk out of Africa. But you knew that :)

Good Quote:
Scientists have mapped these events to geographic choke points around the world, based on decreasing genetic diversity as we migrated.

One bottleneck occurred when a small group of humans left Africa. Another happened when this group split up in the Middle East, with some of us heading to Europe and others to Asia. Others occurred when we left Southeast Asia for Austronesia, crossed the Beringia land bridge into Alaska, and spread into South America through what is now Panama.

This is why African populations tend to have far more genetic diversity in their DNA than populations native to the Americas.

It's also why, when you compare humans to other species, human DNA is not very diverse when you consider our globe-spanning range."

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jul 2017 at 10:20
Vanuatu

[quote]It's also why, when you compare humans to other species, human DNA is not very diverse when you consider our globe-spanning range."]/quote]

Yes, the African DNA has mixed with great diversity. This could be explained by the proximity to South Western Europe.

But AMH have, basically, only bred with AMH, although there is some evidence of breeding with Denisovans, and possibly Neanderthals, or even Denisovans who had mixed with Neanderthals.

Time will tell whether there is other admixture.


Edited by toyomotor - 08 Jul 2017 at 10:23
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jul 2017 at 16:58
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Vanuatu

[quote]It's also why, when you compare humans to other species, human DNA is not very diverse when you consider our globe-spanning range."]/quote]

Yes, the African DNA has mixed with great diversity. This could be explained by the proximity to South Western Europe.

But AMH have, basically, only bred with AMH, although there is some evidence of breeding with Denisovans, and possibly Neanderthals, or even Denisovans who had mixed with Neanderthals.

Time will tell whether there is other admixture.

Not much anatomy found to study the Denisovans; do you think they had a gracile body type?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jul 2017 at 17:06
Vanuatu

Don't know, neither do the experts, but I think it's expected that Denisovans closely resembled AMH-more than Neanderthals.

At present, scientists are working on what they suspect is another species, which would possibly fit in somewhere around the Neanderthal/Denisovan/AMH.

I'm not game enough to predict what it may be, but, at present, scientists are working on small bone fragments, so small in fact that any findings could well be challenged.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jul 2017 at 05:12
Have you read this? It's dated 7 days ago.

http://www.livinganthropologically.com/biological-anthropology/denisovans-neandertals-human-races/
Findings published in July 2017 seem to help resolve some of the puzzles that the 2010-2012 discoveries raised. As Carl Zimmer reports in the New York Times:

The common ancestors of Neanderthals and Denisovans spread across Europe and Asia over half a million years ago. Gradually the eastern and western populations parted ways, genetically speaking.
In the east, they became Denisovans. In the west, they became Neanderthals. The 430,000-year-old fossils at Sima de los Huesos — Neanderthals with Denisovanlike genes — capture the early stage of that split.
At some point before 270,000 years ago, African humans closely related to us moved into Europe and interbred with Neanderthals. Their DNA entered the Neanderthal gene pool. (In Neanderthal DNA, Signs of a Mysterious Human Migration; see also the finds of Homo sapiens in Morocco which helped set the stage for these earlier dates.)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jul 2017 at 05:54
Vanuatu
Quote In the east, they became Denisovans. In the west, they became Neanderthals. The 430,000-year-old fossils at Sima de los Huesos — Neanderthals with Denisovanlike genes — capture the early stage of that split.

I'm not sure about that. I've not read any authoratative reports that say that and I'm not sure of the time period overlap, whether or not it would permit that sort of development and later split.

Love to see some scientific report.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jul 2017 at 05:37
Vanuatu
On the topic of Denisovans and Neanderthals, Dienekes Ponticles says this,
Quote
The authors interpret the new result from HST as placing a lower boundary on an introgression from Africans to Neandertals at more than 290kya, which explains why Africans are genomically closer to Neandertals than to Denisovans.

Of course, when one looks at the mitochondrial phylogeny, it has the form:

(Denisovans, (Neandertals, Modern Humans))

Within the Modern Humans, Eurasians are a branch of a tree which is mostly African. This has been interpreted for decades as evidence for the Out of Africa hypothesis for the origin of Modern Humans. But, within the phylogeny as a whole, Modern Humans are a branch of the Eurasian tree. This has not (why?) in general been interpreted as evidence for Out of Eurasia for the common ancestor of Modern Humans and Neandertals.

It seems to me that this hypothesis, that Modern Humans and Neandertals stem from a non-African ancestor (a non-African population of H. heidelbergensis, for example), has much to recommend it.
See the rest of his comments at http://dienekes.blogspot.com.au/

When a respected anthropologist such as Dienekes leans toward non African population of early forms of human, I must put aside my inclination towards the total Out of Africa theory.

It seems that an Out of Eurasia theory is now gaining more traction and it may eventuate that there will be two or more origins of Homo Sapiens Sapiens.

His writings would dispel, I would think, the possibility of an east/west split.




Edited by toyomotor - 16 Jul 2017 at 05:39
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