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Hitler gets and keeps France and England's Navies.

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Henry Fleischmann View Drop Down
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    Posted: 26 Nov 2012 at 01:30
In this world he almost got some of France's, and Churchill in fact sunk some of the rest, fearing the French might hand them over, (which was unlikely, the French Admiral made it clear he would scuttle his ships first and actually did scuttle some and/or surrendered them to the British)
 
What if Hitler had acted more quickly and ruthlessly in two cases, taking the French Navy by holding Paris hostage, then using it cover his invasion of England, after which he could force the surrender of the British Fleet by using the same ploy on London?
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gcle2003 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Nov 2012 at 20:21
Britain put a stop to that right at the beginning, as soon as France surrendered, by destroying such of the French fleet that refused to turn themselves over to Britain.

I don't know what you mean by holding Paris hostage. The French fleet would have been pt out of action anyway. It wasn't up to them to choose.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Henry Fleischmann Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Dec 2012 at 14:28
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Britain put a stop to that right at the beginning, as soon as France surrendered, by destroying such of the French fleet that refused to turn themselves over to Britain.

I don't know what you mean by holding Paris hostage. The French fleet would have been pt out of action anyway. It wasn't up to them to choose.
 
My understanding is that most of the French Fleet turned themselve over to the Brits for internment, or were in Brit ports.
 
There were 3 or so BBS that were in North African ports, and these were attacked and sunk or disabled by the Brits in the invasion of North Africa, it was, as I understand it, a matter of some controversy since several French sailors were killed.
 
Now what I am talking about is these ships in Africa actively escaping, along with whatever French ships were at sea or in neutral ports. How could this have happened?
 
By holding Paris hostage I mean Hitler rigging all of Paris's great buildings to blow up if he French Navy refuses to come back to occupied or Vichy ports and surrendering to German crews.
 
Same thing could be applied to the British Navy if Hitler held London.
 
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Henry Fleischmann View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Henry Fleischmann Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Dec 2012 at 15:11
One thing I'd like to make perfectly clear, I am NOT in any way, shape or form, engaging in any sort of wishful thinking here. I am perfectly satisfied and very, very happy things happened as they did. I'm just trying to make up an alternate world which would create the story I want to write, where, incidentally, the Germans loose even though just about everything turns their way at first.

Edited by Henry Fleischmann - 19 Dec 2012 at 15:16
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Captain Vancouver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Dec 2012 at 18:33
The French ships would have made little difference. The key factor that prevented a German invasion of Britain was air superiority, which they were unable to achieve. The French ships would not have helped out here. In fact, by that time battleships were already proving to be slipping into obsolescence, and would have bolstered Germany only to a minimal degree. Mer el Kebir was, in hindsight, a mistake IMO. It fanned Anglo-French animosity, which had serious consequences later, but achieved little in the way of removing a serious threat.
 
The British navy was globally placed, with bases around the world, and could have easily disbursed to Canada and other locations. It's unlikely they would have given up.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Dec 2012 at 19:38
Originally posted by Henry Fleischmann Henry Fleischmann wrote:

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Britain put a stop to that right at the beginning, as soon as France surrendered, by destroying such of the French fleet that refused to turn themselves over to Britain.

I don't know what you mean by holding Paris hostage. The French fleet would have been pt out of action anyway. It wasn't up to them to choose.
 
My understanding is that most of the French Fleet turned themselve over to the Brits for internment, or were in Brit ports.
 
There were 3 or so BBS that were in North African ports, and these were attacked and sunk or disabled by the Brits in the invasion of North Africa, it was, as I understand it, a matter of some controversy since several French sailors were killed.
 
Now what I am talking about is these ships in Africa actively escaping, along with whatever French ships were at sea or in neutral ports. How could this have happened?
 
It couldn't have. As you point out, the Royal Navy destroyed them. The only choice the French had was to turn over their ships to Britain, or be sunk or otherwise put out of action.
 
Incidentally there were nearly 1300 French killed against two British. 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Mar 2015 at 05:34
One thing that happened in the Battle of Britain air war, is that Britain attacked Berlin, and thus the Germans started to attack London and other British cities, instead of finishing British air power.
British air power was a little bit in trouble from attacks on air fields, etc. before the Berlin attack,
the switch to the cities essentially gave the British breathing room.  But don't take my word for
it, look it up yourself.
If you knock out british air power, and keep England isolated, then maybe you can hypothesize England falling.
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