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Hitlers Rise

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    Posted: 01 Apr 2019 at 16:58
Adolph Hitler became the Chancellor of Germany in 1934, and set in motion one of the most abhorrent periods in human history.

We all know what happened, but my question is, how?

As a result of losing World War I, Germany was prohibited from having a large military, but, somehow from under the noses of allied countries, built and army, navy and air force of such proportions that Germany was able to overrun a large part of Europe, attack the UK and Russia. Millions of troops were stationed in occupied areas, while the navy ran riot in the Atlantic Ocean and North Sea.

How did the allies not know what was going on in pre-war Germany?

How did they not know about the death camps? And if they did, why not stop the murder of millions of people.

Were the intelligence agencies so underfunded or incompetent as to not know that Germany was gearing up for war?

How about economists, how did they not know about the diversion of resources from normal trade to building a war machine?

I can't even believe that political weakness or incompetence could be the reasons.

Anyone enlighten me?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Apr 2019 at 22:17
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

We all know what happened, but my question is, how?
By exploiting German anger over national suoppression and economic woes, utilising organised violence and creating a scapegoat, plus the weakness of the Weimar Republic.
Quote As a result of losing World War I, Germany was prohibited from having a large military, but, somehow from under the noses of allied countries, built and army, navy and air force of such proportions that Germany was able to overrun a large part of Europe, attack the UK and Russia. Millions of troops were stationed in occupied areas, while the navy ran riot in the Atlantic Ocean and North Sea.
Well, yes, but early in the war Germany was unprepared for an escalation of the conflict. Originally Hitler did not envisage attacking Russia until 1944, the year after the re-armament program was supposed to be complete. Remember that in 1939 the Germans were worried that France, who had more and heavier tanks than Germany, plus the image of the world's greatest army, would attack. They did, but only advanced a few kilometres and no further. In fact, Hitler was concerned about the strength of Russia's armed forces. After the Soviet embarrassment in Finland, Hitler wanted to invade Russia in late 1940, and his generals had to persuade him that this was not a good idea. Britain would of course fall victim to the U-Boat blockade sooner or later (and we wobbled dangerously at one point).

Quote How did the allies not know what was going on in pre-war Germany?
They did, or at least the more obvious aspects. But Germany had also done deals with Russia and tested tanks and aeroplanes in Soviet territory even before Hitler became Chancellor in 1033.

Quote How did they not know about the death camps? And if they did, why not stop the murder of millions of people.
Rumours and intelligence had gotten out. However, no-one could believe the scale of what was going on, not even the German public who were just in the dark as everybody else.

Quote Were the intelligence agencies so underfunded or incompetent as to not know that Germany was gearing up for war?
Victory disease. After the allied victory in 1918 it was inconceivable that Germany would rise like that again, but even when it was obvious that Germany was indeed rising to threaten the estabklished order, many actually liked the economic revival and strong central government of Germany, especially America.

Quote How about economists, how did they not know about the diversion of resources from normal trade to building a war machine?
Okay, be careful, because full rotating 24hr factory working in Germany was not established until 1943 along with rationing. Hitler wanted the German people to feel happy and secure, so they were not told the actual events of the war until they admitted the defeat at Stalingrad.

Quote I can't even believe that political weakness or incompetence could be the reasons.
The Soviets knew full well how powerful Germany was and tried darn hard to stay on their good side. France was chaotic and quite unprepared to go to war at all. Their soldiers were always finding excuses to go on holiday and French leadership was appallingly bad. The British had quite a sizeable number of appeasers in high positions, and lucky for us Churchill survived the shenanigans designed to stop him running Britain (He was seen as a disastrous loose cannon by many). America was very pro-German and under the Neutrality Act, but Hitler declared war on them to legitimise submarine interdiction of American goods heading for Britain anyway, and Churchill had successfully brought the American administration to the point of accepting that war was necessary - just an excuse was needed by 1941.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Apr 2019 at 11:04
OK, so the answer seems to be that the Allies knew about Germany's build up, but simply failed to act.

Political stupidity!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Apr 2019 at 14:17
I have heard (Lukacs) that Churchill was given the PM in expectation that he was thus going to have to be the one to capitulate.  And he didn't.

When has anyone really been involved in another country to stop a genocide?  
Bob Dole put pressure on Clinton to get involved in Bosnia, but I don't think that was really an active military intervention.  More like observation, documentation, policing and political involvement.  btw, Bob Dole was patched up by an Armenian doctor after WWII, and so Dole saw it as an Armenia happening all over again.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Apr 2019 at 01:18
In addition to the excellent examples so far, I would add "group psyche" to the rise of Hitler at least.
Lloyd DeMause has written a lot on the treatment of children that grew up after WW1. The conditions for living and working were bad and people were generally suicidal. There is documentation from British aid  services who helped where they could. Infancy itself was agony as children were swaddled tightly in rags and hung on wall while parents struggled to feed themselves. Freud observed in Hitler- the Oedipus complex and paranoid fear of Germany and himself being "strangled" by surrounding nations, a frequent theme in Hitler's speeches. DeMause has researched Hitler's youth and by his account Hitler was hated and beaten by his father and his mother lavished him with love and attention. 

The tightly swaddled neglected children observed by aid workers, became the Nazis.
For a few years the Germans did enjoy being sold on the Nazi party. It came with free vacations.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Apr 2019 at 09:18
Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

In addition to the excellent examples so far, I would add "group psyche" to the rise of Hitler at least.
Lloyd DeMause has written a lot on the treatment of children that grew up after WW1. The conditions for living and working were bad and people were generally suicidal. There is documentation from British aid  services who helped where they could. Infancy itself was agony as children were swaddled tightly in rags and hung on wall while parents struggled to feed themselves. Freud observed in Hitler- the Oedipus complex and paranoid fear of Germany and himself being "strangled" by surrounding nations, a frequent theme in Hitler's speeches. DeMause has researched Hitler's youth and by his account Hitler was hated and beaten by his father and his mother lavished him with love and attention. 

The tightly swaddled neglected children observed by aid workers, became the Nazis.
For a few years the Germans did enjoy being sold on the Nazi party. It came with free vacations.


I don't disagree with you, but my point is why the Allies allowed Germany to rearm to the extent that it did. At any time between, say, 1934 and 1939 the Allies could have intervened by decisive action against Germany, in Germany, which could have spoiled Hitlers plans.

As for your post, I'm aware that young school children were indoctrinated into the Nazi programme, went on the be members of the Hitlerjugend, and ultimately died fighting for Germany before reaching adulthood.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Apr 2019 at 16:12
I think you mean, 'why couldn't they have done anything sooner?'  The British Army almost got stuck in France.  If they didn't do _anything_ then it wouldn't have been in France, would it?  France thought it would be protected by their Maginot line if I recall.  They were tired of war from WWI, and like many victors, they were fighting the last war (which really was hardly a victory.)  Does one have to mention Neville Chamberlin?  Churchill gave the British a spine for action, destroying the French fleet at Oran, may seem to some to be a waste killing allies, but it also gave Roosevelt the realization that the British were serious, and that opened the lend lease.  As far as I understand the issues.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Apr 2019 at 03:56
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

In addition to the excellent examples so far, I would add "group psyche" to the rise of Hitler at least.
Lloyd DeMause has written a lot on the treatment of children that grew up after WW1. The conditions for living and working were bad and people were generally suicidal. There is documentation from British aid  services who helped where they could. Infancy itself was agony as children were swaddled tightly in rags and hung on wall while parents struggled to feed themselves. Freud observed in Hitler- the Oedipus complex and paranoid fear of Germany and himself being "strangled" by surrounding nations, a frequent theme in Hitler's speeches. DeMause has researched Hitler's youth and by his account Hitler was hated and beaten by his father and his mother lavished him with love and attention. 

The tightly swaddled neglected children observed by aid workers, became the Nazis.
For a few years the Germans did enjoy being sold on the Nazi party. It came with free vacations.


I don't disagree with you, but my point is why the Allies allowed Germany to rearm to the extent that it did. At any time between, say, 1934 and 1939 the Allies could have intervened by decisive action against Germany, in Germany, which could have spoiled Hitlers plans.
As for your post-
When you say 'could have' you must consider the political/psychological will to do something. The guns and bullets are always lying around, the WILL to use them is the mechanism and that's pure psychology. Example- reaction to Trump demonstrates the extreme will to destroy him.

Quote As for your post, I'm aware that young school children were indoctrinated into the Nazi programme, went on the be members of the Hitlerjugend, and ultimately died fighting for Germany before reaching adulthood.
Right but long before Hitler's youth everyday policemen began carrying out executions of unarmed women and children. One day the man is a policeman, the next day an executioner-why?
Psychological snap, group think, I'm next, foreigners taking our jobs etc., or did growing up in a hellish post war Germany knock their schadenfreude into a most refined evil?

And lastly, let's not forget adorable Joe "hate a jew" Kennedy. His influence with Roosevelt wasn't the point, everyday peeps loved him. Kennedy represented the same kind of hegemony as the Hapsburg dynasty and Americans loved the bloody Kennedys. Smart people can be wrong and influential, toyomotor. Public opinion in US was isolationist in 1939. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Apr 2019 at 11:24
When do 'the allies' come into existence?  I would say that the allies are Britain, USSR, USA, China. With maybe the Free French, and the Poles as lesser partners (lesser despite what DeGaule may have thought).  But, to talk about the Allies in 1934 is a little disingenuous.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Apr 2019 at 12:33
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

When do 'the allies' come into existence?  I would say that the allies are Britain, USSR, USA, China. With maybe the Free French, and the Poles as lesser partners (lesser despite what DeGaule may have thought).  But, to talk about the Allies in 1934 is a little disingenuous.

OK, I didn't mean to imply that the "alliance"  existed in 1934, but the victorious parties from WW1 certainly did.

I think my main point has been overlooked or misinterpreted. What I'm saying, basically, is that WW1 victors must have known what Hitler was doing in rebuilding Germany's armed forces before he commenced the blitzkrieg of Europe.

IF lack of political will was the reason that they did nothing, I'd be staggered.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Apr 2019 at 12:36
V
Quote Smart people can be wrong and influential, toyomotor. Public opinion in US was isolationist in 1939.

Yes, I know, and had it not been the victim of another "Day of Infamy" it possibly still would be.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Apr 2019 at 21:20
Not necessarily. Remember that Churchill had worked hard to get Roosevelt on-side, and whilst American legality and mindset was against intervention in Europe, Roosevelt had exhorted America to become the "Arsenal of Democracy", which was an opportunity for arms sales abroad. The GErmans knew this too, thus they were increasingly attacking US shipping ever closer to their shores and in fact Hitler made his declaration of war against America to legitimise his attacks on US shipping to support the economic blockade and eventual surrender of Britain. Remember too that a popular joke had it that 'Churchill wants to fight to the last American'.
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