| FORUM | ARCHIVE |                    | TOTAL QUIZ RESULT |


  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - How divergent a language can get?
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login


Welcome stranger, click here to read about some of the great benefits of registering for a free account with us and joining us in our global online community.


How divergent a language can get?

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>
Author
Al Jassas View Drop Down
King
King


Joined: 08 Aug 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 5000
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: How divergent a language can get?
    Posted: 22 Jun 2010 at 05:14
Hello to you all
 
When I was watching a program shot in Morocco the other day I was shocked that the channel used subtitles to "translate" what the people were saying. The problem is I later learned that they standarised the subtitling to cover all their programs shot in Arab countries because of accent difference. While I do agree that the Magharibi accents are incomprehensible I think using subtitles for the rest of the Arab world is not a good idea since the language is quite close and the grammer and vocabulary is about the same with of course some local differences.
 
This got me thinking, how is it that (except in the UK, I simply couldn't understand a single word some country people say) english is quite universally understood without much of a problem? Is it because English spread is relatively short term (it only got out of the isles back in the 17th century)?
 
What about other languages? What about Spanish and the Latin world parallel in many respects to the Arab world? If three guys from three Cordobas (Spain, Mexico and Argentina) came together will they understand each other fine or is it the same way with the Arab world? I mean I always see in equipment guides at least two Spanish (and two Portuguese) guides, is this necessary?
 
Al-Jassas
Back to Top
Sponsored Links


Back to Top
Ziegenbartami View Drop Down
Earl
Earl
Avatar

Joined: 29 Nov 2009
Location: Iowa, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 285
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ziegenbartami Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jun 2010 at 05:18
I once caught a bit of a program on German TV where a Swiss man was being interviewed and Hochdeutsch subtitles were used. I also have many friends from Ostfriesland in northwestern Germany, who would be unable to understand someone speaking a southern dialect such as Bayerisch or Schwaebisch.

Edited by Ziegenbartami - 22 Jun 2010 at 11:41
"The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule."
- H.L. Mencken (1880-1956)
Back to Top
Al Jassas View Drop Down
King
King


Joined: 08 Aug 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 5000
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jun 2010 at 05:29

Hello Ziegen

I totally forgot about German. Indeed I read about this when I was reading about Bavaria. One of the guys advocating Bavarian independence cited language as a powerfull reason, I think he said that "northerners" (Saxons I believe the word he used) spoke a different language than his and that it was closer to Dutch or something. Also when I was reading about the Amish the Penn Dutch they used was an archaic form of German that ended centuries ago and only Baltic Germans could understand it or something like that.
 
Al-Jassas
Back to Top
gcle2003 View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar
PM Honorary Member

Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Location: Luxembourg
Status: Offline
Points: 13238
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jun 2010 at 05:32
I was once invited to their dinner by one of those livery companies or whatever that run the Cologne carnival. So were a couple of non-local German colleagues. They were just as baffled by the Kölsch stand up comic as I was.
 
In Britain I could barely understand the Glasgow comedian Billy Connoly. Jo Anne, from Atlanta, couldn't understand a word of it, and was totally lost by the dialogue in the Scouse film 'Letter To Brezhnev'.
 
I also remember looking blankly at the Georgia waitress the first time I was asked if I wanted my barbecue sla-yuced or chee-yupped.
 
(The advantage in talking to Georgians is that they do give you a lot of time to figure out what they are saying.)
 
 


Edited by gcle2003 - 22 Jun 2010 at 05:34
Citizen of Ankh-Morpork.

Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.

Back to Top
drgonzaga View Drop Down
King
King
Avatar
Plus Ultra

Joined: 02 Oct 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 6262
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jun 2010 at 08:02
Al Jassas inquired:
 
What about other languages? What about Spanish and the Latin world parallel in many respects to the Arab world? If three guys from three Cordobas (Spain, Mexico and Argentina) came together will they understand each other fine or is it the same way with the Arab world? I mean I always see in equipment guides at least two Spanish (and two Portuguese) guides, is this necessary?
 
No...for even though pronunciational differences abound and there exist peculiarisms in vocabulary between the peninsular states and their former colonial orbs, written Spanish and Portuguese do not require regional curiosities for mutal comprehension. Presupposing educational and social equality between the individuals drawn from the the three Cordobas, they would all understand their peculiar jabberings. In the world of writing there is no venture into incomprehension. Some words migh be employed peculiarly but a frijol is a frijol even if it is a fabada! No Latin American, even a Brazilian one,  would have comprehension problems in Sevilla--now I would not recommend their sojourn in Barcelona but that's an entirely different faena.
 
PS: Even the peculiarities in American English described by Gcle are fast becoming quaint anachronisms...chalk it up to the Media and its penchant for "Middle Americanese".


Edited by drgonzaga - 22 Jun 2010 at 08:07
Honi soit qui mal y pense
Back to Top
Omar al Hashim View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master


Joined: 05 Jan 2006
Location: Bush Capital
Status: Offline
Points: 7823
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jun 2010 at 10:11
I once watched a live conversation between Mark Taylor and Michael Holding* after a match. Niether could understand anything the other was saying, although both as far as I know only speak English. They both grabbed a few words the other said and extropolated their own sentence.
 
Similarly at a small town in North Carolina my sister failed to make herself understood to the shopkeeper until our cousin (from Conneticut) translated. (And that wasn't because the Americans have a completely different set of works for small baked things)
 
But generally, English is far less diverse than Arabic. A better comparison for Arabic would be Latin - French, Italian, Spanish, Portugese, Romanian and Church Latin are all Latin in the same way Egyptian, Morrocon, Modern Standard and Iraqi are Arabic.
 
 
*For those in the audience who won't automatically recognise the names. They are both commentators and former Cricketers. Taylor is Australian, Holding is West Indian, both have heavy sterotypical accents.
Back to Top
Flipper View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 23 Apr 2006
Location: Anatolia&Balkan
Status: Offline
Points: 2798
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jul 2010 at 06:18
Originally posted by Al Jassas Al Jassas wrote:

This got me thinking, how is it that (except in the UK, I simply couldn't understand a single word some country people say) english is quite universally understood without much of a problem? Is it because English spread is relatively short term (it only got out of the isles back in the 17th century)?
 


Hello Al Jassas!
English is easily understood because we hear it on regular basis. Especially American English. Our ears are used to it. I mean, even Australian English is common to me, because I happen to turn on the tv before going to work and an Australian series is on display. Personally, I could mimic for you american, australian, UK english and scottish accents pretty successfully.  

Originally posted by Al Jassas Al Jassas wrote:


What about other languages? What about Spanish and the Latin world parallel in many respects to the Arab world? If three guys from three Cordobas (Spain, Mexico and Argentina) came together will they understand each other fine or is it the same way with the Arab world? I mean I always see in equipment guides at least two Spanish (and two Portuguese) guides, is this necessary?


In my 2 native languages (Greek & Swedish) there are vast differences between dialects. I have never seen subtitles for Swedish, but I have seen for Greek and specifically the Griko dialect of south Italy. Apart from that, I've never seen it again. However Pontic Greek, some Cypriot dialects and some local dialects of northern Greece can be impossible to understand if spoken fast.

When it comes to written language, it is one and the same since Koine became standard back in Hellenistic ages. No matter what dialect you speak, you always write the same.

As for what you say about two spanish and two portuguese texts in equipment guides i really wonder as well if it's necessary. Sometimes, when I have an equipment guide that includes Norwegian and Danish instead of Swedish, it works just fine for me.



Edited by Flipper - 30 Jul 2010 at 06:22
FΑΝΑΚΤΟΥ ΜΙΔΑ ΓΟΝΟΣ
Back to Top
Killabee View Drop Down
Earl
Earl


Joined: 02 Feb 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 280
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Killabee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Sep 2010 at 09:35
I can easily understand Mandarin spoken in Taiwan and Southern China. The Northern Chinese Mandarin, especially from the provinces like Shandong, Henan and  the North-Eastern part, I am absolutely clueless of they are talking about without subtitles. Even the Beijing Mandarin, which is what standard Mandarin supposedly modeled after, I am hard-pressed to understand what they are saying.  
Back to Top
Kaysaar View Drop Down
Consul
Consul
Avatar

Joined: 27 Aug 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 370
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kaysaar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Sep 2010 at 11:35
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Al Jassas inquired:
 No Latin American, even a Brazilian one,  would have comprehension problems in Sevilla--now I would not recommend their sojourn in Barcelona but that's an entirely different faena.


While I agree with the majority of your post, I must disagree with you here. Through my jobs and education (degree in Spanish language, work in English language education, and restaurant employee in the southern USA), I've had the opportunity to speak with Spanish speakers of varied educational backgrounds and from almost every Spanish-speaking country. From my experience, I believe that Andalusian Spanish is among the more difficult to understand, due to the relaxed intonation, and looser pronunciation of words. During my studies in Salamanca, Spain, my host-mothers daughter-in-law spent a week staying with us, and understanding her Spanish was significantly more difficult than understanding anybody else that I spoke with during the entire year. I also work with a Spaniard from Barcelona, and I find that his Spanish is significantly easier to understand, and he also encountered difficulties during his tenure as a factory manager in Sevilla. 

I also find that I have trouble with some Dominican speakers, due to their pace of speech, and their aspiration of 's' sounds.
�Vamos Bar�a! �Vamos a por el triplete otra vez!
Back to Top
drgonzaga View Drop Down
King
King
Avatar
Plus Ultra

Joined: 02 Oct 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 6262
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Sep 2010 at 13:27
Francisco Franco is that you?
 
Sorry, Kaysar, just as Franco attacked the autonomy of Catalan, Basque, and even Galician, so too he sought to "eradicate" the Mother Tongue of the Americas, Andalusian Spanish, by imposing such things as the "th" (zeta) and decrying the aspirated ending consonant in the final syllable (e.g. cansado not cansa[d]o.) Calling such traits "uneducated" and not Castellano. Guess what, it did not work. Given that on the East Coast of the United States, Cuban, Puerto Rican, and Dominican speakers have no difficulty understanding each other, neither would they have any trouble in communicating effectively on Calle Sierpes in Sevilla! Matter of fact, one might say that Andalusian Spanish is the Spanish of modern poetry and has been essentially since the advent of Modernismo at the close of the XIXth century. Listen to a Cuban guajira and it all becomes clear. No Latin American speaks Castellano for to do so would be thought affectatious, it is as simple as that. I can "theta" with the best of them, but I do not because frankly its usage is dialectical and bound to a specific region of the peninsula with no more primacy than any other and when juxtaposed to the majoirty of speakers of Spanish really quite provincial...now let us hear the uproar from the gachupines
 
Se le vio caminar..
Labrad, amigos,
de piedra y sueno, en el Alhambra,
un tumulo al poeta,
sobre una fuente donde llore el agua,
y eternamente diga:
el crimen fue en Granada.. en su Granada!

Antonio Machado


Edited by drgonzaga - 29 Sep 2010 at 13:29
Honi soit qui mal y pense
Back to Top
lirelou View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 26 Mar 2009
Location: Tampa, FL
Status: Offline
Points: 1346
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Sep 2010 at 14:22
Local variations in Spanish can lead to misunderstandings. Mafalda's innocent "Ay, que bicho!" en Buenos Aires draws a completely different reaction from Puertorrican Spanish speakers, where 'bicho' is understood to mean the penis. Likewise, even educated terms can acquire different meanings within different societies. Hispanidad is one example. But otherwise, Spanish is generally comprehensible throughout the Spanish speaking world.
Phong trần mài một lưỡi gươm, Những loài giá áo túi cơm sá gì
Back to Top
drgonzaga View Drop Down
King
King
Avatar
Plus Ultra

Joined: 02 Oct 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 6262
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Sep 2010 at 15:12
C'mon Lirelou, local colloquialisms are another matter entirely. And if you drag in BA then there is far more than just bicho! For example do not say this innocent phrase from Tenerife in the Plaza de Mayo: Voy a coger la guagua![The Canarian colloquial for autobus is the BA slang for prostitute and we all know what happened to the simple verb in certain regions of the Americas in vulgar speech] Such is the fate of regional slang in all languages. Nevertheless, such are exceptions to the general understanding and often a function of transformation from original meanings.
Honi soit qui mal y pense
Back to Top
opuslola View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 23 Feb 2011
Location: MS, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 1009
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Mar 2011 at 12:27
My connection of any type is with the Spanish I found spoken in Madrid (Castilian), the Spanish of Barcelona (Catalonian) and the Spanish spoken in N. America.  And, to me, they are all different.
The Catalans it seem, try to reverse years and years of Castilian speaking, by refusing to speak it in their cities, or teach it in their schools.  It is reportedly more related to the Langue d'Oc, or Occitan, than to Castilian Spanish.
 To my ear, the language in Madrid, seemed to be spoken with a "lisp!"
 
 
 
So just how divergent is d'Oc to d' Oil?, and to Castilian?
Back to Top
Joe View Drop Down
Baron
Baron
Avatar

Joined: 19 Jan 2011
Status: Offline
Points: 473
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Joe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Mar 2011 at 13:15
Jamaicans are a perfect example of this. I'm from the US and its so impossible to understand them when they speak fast.
Back to Top
pinguin View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar

Joined: 29 Sep 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 15238
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Mar 2011 at 22:07
Originally posted by opuslola opuslola wrote:

My connection of any type is with the Spanish I found spoken in Madrid (Castilian), the Spanish of Barcelona (Catalonian) and the Spanish spoken in N. America.  And, to me, they are all different.
The Catalans it seem, try to reverse years and years of Castilian speaking, by refusing to speak it in their cities, or teach it in their schools.  It is reportedly more related to the Langue d'Oc, or Occitan, than to Castilian Spanish.
 To my ear, the language in Madrid, seemed to be spoken with a "lisp!"
 
...
 
So just how divergent is d'Oc to d' Oil?, and to Castilian?


They are different? You should listen to Argentinean and Chilean Spanish Confused... Those are truly different.
Back to Top
opuslola View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 23 Feb 2011
Location: MS, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 1009
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Mar 2011 at 23:07
Originally posted by Joe Joe wrote:

Jamaicans are a perfect example of this. I'm from the US and its so impossible to understand them when they speak fast.
I work with a number of Jamaicans, and believe me, their language, with a few exceptions, is not understandable even spoken slowly.  Yes, there are  a lot of English words in it, but even most of them have a changed pronounciation that mostly defies explanation, although this site tries to explain it.
 
 
Ron
Back to Top
Zagros View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar
Kaveh ye Ahangar

Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Location: MidX,Engelistan
Status: Offline
Points: 12490
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Mar 2011 at 23:17
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

I was once invited to their dinner by one of those livery companies or whatever that run the Cologne carnival. So were a couple of non-local German colleagues. They were just as baffled by the Kölsch stand up comic as I was.
 
In Britain I could barely understand the Glasgow comedian Billy Connoly. Jo Anne, from Atlanta, couldn't understand a word of it, and was totally lost by the dialogue in the Scouse film 'Letter To Brezhnev'.
 
I also remember looking blankly at the Georgia waitress the first time I was asked if I wanted my barbecue sla-yuced or chee-yupped.
 
(The advantage in talking to Georgians is that they do give you a lot of time to figure out what they are saying.)
 
 


I think the key is familiarity.  When i first moved to London, I would have to keep asking peple to repeat themselves, which was quite funny and embarrassing since I was told i was the one with the accent a few times (yet an accent which they clearly understood).  real cockney isn't quite as clear as only fools and horses.

I find deep Irish and Glaswegian most difficult to comprehend though nothing would warrant subtitles.

I think they used to subtitle Scots for the English back in the day didn't they?

I love this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7Ef5Aob4cE


Edited by Zagros - 10 Mar 2011 at 23:18
"There was glory in pissing, Corabb decided as he watched the stream curve out and make that familiar but unique sound as it hit the ground." So true.
Back to Top
Al Jassas View Drop Down
King
King


Joined: 08 Aug 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 5000
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Mar 2011 at 02:32

Hello to you all

I actually have very few problems understanding most Irish accents, to me most of them are easier than countryside English or most Scottish ones.
 
Now for Arabic, I have been exploring this world a bit more closer and discovered that its easier to understand Moroccan Arabic or even Aramaic than some "Arab" accents particularly in Yemen. In fact Yemenis themselves couldn't understand some of the dialects that are largely a creole of Arabic and ancient semitic languages that became extinct.
 
Now what about Russian and other slavic languages, are they as close as latin languages or quite divergent? Do they have unintelligible regional dialects like English or mere colloquils?
 
Al-Jassas
Back to Top
opuslola View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 23 Feb 2011
Location: MS, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 1009
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Mar 2011 at 02:45
"Now what about Russian and other slavic languages, are they as close as latin languages or quite divergent? Do they have unintelligible regional dialects like English or mere colloquils?
 
Al-Jassas"
 
You will probably only have problems with the "Georgian" accent!LOL  Since it seems be "sliced or diced" depending upon your desires!Wink
 
Regards,
 
Ron
Back to Top
Joe View Drop Down
Baron
Baron
Avatar

Joined: 19 Jan 2011
Status: Offline
Points: 473
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Joe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Mar 2011 at 02:56
Originally posted by opuslola opuslola wrote:

Originally posted by Joe Joe wrote:

Jamaicans are a perfect example of this. I'm from the US and its so impossible to understand them when they speak fast.
I work with a number of Jamaicans, and believe me, their language, with a few exceptions, is not understandable even spoken slowly.  Yes, there are  a lot of English words in it, but even most of them have a changed pronounciation that mostly defies explanation, although this site tries to explain it.
 
 
Ron

Some Jamaicans and people from other islands like Antigua are easily understandable but some I believe do not speak English. US English is in my opinion the closest to the original language. I mean its all veered off and whats an "original" language anyway? I just feel that if compared US English and Jamacian english they could be classified as different. It wouldn't be especially easy for vice versa to go to either place and easily understand people speaking. Give it another couple years and I guarantee you their different 100%. Like French and Italian.

I wonder if it'd be viable if during a plan to conquer another nation would the idea of conquering language and bloodlines applicable? Not cultural genocide but I guess you say that but I wonder what the steps would be to undertake such a task.


Edited by Joe - 11 Mar 2011 at 02:57
Back to Top
Kaysaar View Drop Down
Consul
Consul
Avatar

Joined: 27 Aug 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 370
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kaysaar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Mar 2011 at 03:25
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:


They are different? You should listen to Argentinean and Chilean Spanish Confused... Those are truly different.


Chilean Spanish I haven't had issues with, but trying to understand interviews with Argentine soccer player Leo Messi is tricky for me because he has a very closed intonation and speech pattern, in addition to mumbling. In commercials he's easier to understand, I'd assume due to not developing the idea himself.

The accents throughout Spain vary depending on the regions. The Catalan pronunciation of Spanish varies from the tone, intonation, and pace of speech from Albacete or Madrid, or from Galicia. Much of it has to do with the local languages in the north of Spain (Gallego, Euskadi, Catalan, Austriano etc.).




Edited by Kaysaar - 11 Mar 2011 at 03:26
�Vamos Bar�a! �Vamos a por el triplete otra vez!
Back to Top
opuslola View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 23 Feb 2011
Location: MS, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 1009
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Mar 2011 at 03:50
Joe, here in the USA, there still exists the remains of at least four old English/Scot/Irish accents.  The small states of New England, contain the remains of at least one of them, and Maryland, Virginia, N./S. Carolina, and Georgia, also contain at least two versions.  Of course these accents were modified as the original settlers and their descendants moved further from their ancestorial homes near the coast, and up rivers N. S., and West!  These accents, all of a version of the English spoken in their ancestral places in England, English Scotland, N. Ireland, and Wales, etc., and thus they very a great deal.  Also apparent is the fact that social status of the ruling class, seems to have survived as well.  Thus the English spoken by the society people in Maryland, VA, N./S. Carolina and GA, also remained, as well as the accent of the under-classes, I.e. those persons who came here as indentured servants, etc.!
 
As a young man/boy I was raised in the area around Memphis, TN, and was pretty well travelled, and as well, I think I had a  natural appituded towards accents and thus the ability to pretty much identify the home of someone, based entirely upon their accent.
 
But, to make a long and boring story short, I feel that if society was to crash, and speedy transportation was to regress to the horse and wagon days, and the transmission of radio and TV were to cease, and required education to receed, then within 80-100 years or so, one might be well hard pressed to carry on an intelligent conversation with a person from Atlanta, or Little Rock, or New Orleans, or Louisville, or Ashville, or Mobile, etc., without some preparation time, or a translator.
 
That is how quickly I feel strong accents could be reintroduced today, as in the past.  England, even today, as has been  mentioned, still has areas where the  locals speak a version of English sometimes almost un-recognizable to others, Cockney, is but one example.
 

Regards,
 
Ron
Back to Top
lirelou View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 26 Mar 2009
Location: Tampa, FL
Status: Offline
Points: 1346
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Mar 2011 at 05:19
Anyone who has read Chaucer in the original, and then read Shakespeare, should have a pretty good idea of just how far a language can diverge. Perhaps a good modern example is Afrikaans, as compared to modern spoken and literary Dutch. It is not just a matter of accent, but choice of target languages for loan words and verb declination practice (or lack thereof).
Phong trần mài một lưỡi gươm, Những loài giá áo túi cơm sá gì
Back to Top
Zagros View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar
Kaveh ye Ahangar

Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Location: MidX,Engelistan
Status: Offline
Points: 12490
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Mar 2011 at 05:43
Originally posted by Al Jassas Al Jassas wrote:

Hello to you all

I actually have very few problems understanding most Irish accents, to me most of them are easier than countryside English or most Scottish ones.
 


de won oim tinkin af, I assure you that you would struggle.

What do you mean by countryside English?   In the South East the countryside English you would find quite intelligible.  Maybe you mean regional English like Yorkshire, Lancashire, Liverpudlian, Geordie etc.
"There was glory in pissing, Corabb decided as he watched the stream curve out and make that familiar but unique sound as it hit the ground." So true.
Back to Top
gcle2003 View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar
PM Honorary Member

Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Location: Luxembourg
Status: Offline
Points: 13238
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Mar 2011 at 06:36
Originally posted by Al Jassas Al Jassas wrote:

Now what about Russian and other slavic languages, are they as close as latin languages or quite divergent?
Based on my experience with vaious ones I'd have said they're about as close to each other as Latin languages are, remembering Latin languages range from Portuguese to Rumaniian. There is of couse the further difference that they use two (and a bit) different alphabets.
Quote
Do they have unintelligible regional dialects like English or mere colloquils?
 
That I don't know for sure.
Citizen of Ankh-Morpork.

Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.

Back to Top
Al Jassas View Drop Down
King
King


Joined: 08 Aug 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 5000
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Mar 2011 at 06:59
Originally posted by Zagros Zagros wrote:

Originally posted by Al Jassas Al Jassas wrote:

Hello to you all

I actually have very few problems understanding most Irish accents, to me most of them are easier than countryside English or most Scottish ones.
 


de won oim tinkin af, I assure you that you would struggle.

What do you mean by countryside English?   In the South East the countryside English you would find quite intelligible.  Maybe you mean regional English like Yorkshire, Lancashire, Liverpudlian, Geordie etc.
 
I mean all the accents spoken by deep countryside folks except those who hail from the home counties. Liverpudlian is what an upperclass englishman sounds when he tries to speak an Irish accent while geordie is the Scottish version of the above.
 
 
Al-Jassas
 
Back to Top
opuslola View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 23 Feb 2011
Location: MS, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 1009
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Mar 2011 at 08:15
I hope all of you realize that the only things keeping verb forms, spelling rules, and vocalization, in any manner uniform, is the result of the "printing press, and its usage", and enforced education!
 
It seems that religious educational institutions were able to keep most of it  straight, until the advent of radio and later TV!
 
But, I still cringe when a new-reporter says "He was shot dead!", or the "alleged killer pleaded guilty, today!"  I hate "alleged" and "pleaded" in the above case!  You will even read in modern novels that "Bob, lighted her cigarette!"  Aggugu!  I would of course, being somewhat old-fashioned, use the smaller words "Pled" for "Pleaded" and "Lit" for "Lighted!"
 
But, what the hay?
 
Ron
 
Regards,
 
Ron
Back to Top
Omar al Hashim View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master


Joined: 05 Jan 2006
Location: Bush Capital
Status: Offline
Points: 7823
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Mar 2011 at 08:16

Slavic I understand is like Latin. With careful choice of words and perhaps some training for accents it can be understood. Serbs and Russians can chat to each other, but a Russian may not be able to enter a conversation between Serbs.

To contradict Joe and opuslola I don't think that any English dialect is unintelligible to another. Some accents that you are unfamiliar with may take a short while to get used to, but they are not unintelligible. It all comes down to exposure. I can understand any North American accent fine, but many US American cannot understand Australians. That's is solely because we watch their TV and they don't watch ours.

West Indian English (ie, Jamacian) is the same. Once you get used to the accent it's fine. Have you ever heard an East Indian-West Indian speak (that is to say, a West Indian who's ancestors come from the Indian subcontinent not Africa)? Their English, while identical to their African-West Indian neighbours, is not in a deep accent, and much easier to understand (for me anyway). It sounds weird because the sentence structures a bit odd**, but its perfectly understandable. For me, understanding any West Indian accent only requires a little bit of exposure or them speaking clearly - I have no problem understanding Michael Holding's Cricket commentry (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Holding).

I also have no doubt that a West Indian could go to the Torres Straight, or Norfork Island and be able to communicate fine. Even PNG pidgeon should not be major problem, and that is strictly speaking not English. An American on the other hand is far more likely to have problems, because they are much less exposed to different accents.


**It actually sounds wierder with a higher pitched voice.

Quote US English is in my opinion the closest to the original language. I mean its all veered off and whats an "original" language anyway?

It is true that the US has preserved some old English words that were lost in other areas. One example is the word "gotten", which is just uneducated English here that has entered through American TV, though the word "forgotten" persists as good English. In other places US English has diverged more - using Spanishised spelling (eg color for colour), and West African words like 'Cool' (as in that's a cool car).

What I am interested in is why accents in Australia are relatively homogenous. Except for Sydney, which has at least 2 distinct accents, regional dialects are quite homogenous varying only by the pronouciation of a few words. The Kiwi accent also appears to have "Maorised" in the last 40 years, in old TV shows it's much closer to Australian than it is now.

 

Back to Top
Flipper View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 23 Apr 2006
Location: Anatolia&Balkan
Status: Offline
Points: 2798
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Mar 2011 at 08:45
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim Omar al Hashim wrote:

To contradict Joe and opuslola I don't think that any English dialect is unintelligible to another. Some accents that you are unfamiliar with may take a short while to get used to, but they are not unintelligible. It all comes down to exposure. I can understand any North American accent fine, but many US American cannot understand Australians. That's is solely because we watch their TV and they don't watch ours.


Let me also agree with this. More or less your first encounters with "different" English might trouble you. Afterwards, you get used to different accents.

Originally posted by Omar al Hashim Omar al Hashim wrote:

West Indian English (ie, Jamacian) is the same. Once you get used to the accent it's fine. 


Omar al Hashim mi bredda... Let me wonce agan agree wit u. LOL Jamaican might be the most difficult to understand, but even non-native english speakers can get used to it. I've always had a rasta flavour in music and because of that my ear is trained. The hard part with Jamaican, is not the accent I believe, but the different expressions and sometimes the vocabulary. For example instead of cemetery you say boneyard Confused


FΑΝΑΚΤΟΥ ΜΙΔΑ ΓΟΝΟΣ
Back to Top
opuslola View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 23 Feb 2011
Location: MS, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 1009
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Mar 2011 at 08:46
Omar, here in the USA, there are programs designed to actually record as many of these dialects and accents as possible, before all of them die out!
 
What a good idea for every nation?
 
Regards,
 
Ron
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.01
Copyright ©2001-2018 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.125 seconds.