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How nature was destroyed in Asia and Europe

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Feb 2011 at 07:06
Yes!  So do I, and it is mildly un-nerving to have people making wise-cracks about a fellow poster!  Perhaps, I am incorrect, but does not some code of conduct have any force here?
But, perhaps you guys were thinking out-loud concerning the "stacatto" and "unnatural" statements made by gcle-2003 or fantasus?  Certainly you did not mean me?
 
Of course not, that would be rude, and childish, at least to me!  But, I do not know how gcle-2003 and fantasus might take them?
 
Nice meeting you both!Wink  It seems some of us will have to "keep you close!" or rather "closer!"
 
But, wait!  Gcle-2003 is a site moderator!  Certainly you did not  mean to demean him, since he might well get mad?  I guess it was "fantasus" that you demeaned and derided?
 
I am sure it was all in good fun!  I happen to like his postings!
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Feb 2011 at 07:38
They are not "wise-cracks" given the fact that you are taking the "poetic" (settlements as "islands" in the sea of nature) to an absurd level. The fact that you are drawing heavily on the Low Countries--as well as not explaining the "man made" of later times (e.g. Wroclau)--and then speaking of Medieval Europe is more than hard to follow, it is pure disconnection. It is amply captured by this effort at ambiguation:
 
"Now, I reiterate, I did not ever suggest that most cities were founded because the land was an island, I clearly stated that these "most important" cities (where conditions allowed) were mostly eventually created to act as islands, etc.!  What part of this do you not understand?"
 
Of course, one could also engage in deconstruction more directly: Opuslola--shades of Burke Breathed!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Feb 2011 at 07:56
"-shades of Burke Breathed!"
Ahh!  You have now mentioned one of my favorite persons!  Did you are did you not figure that out via my by-name "OpusLola?"
 
If it is so, then you are the very first of hundreds of posters over the years, that actually saw that relationship!
 
Regards,
 
OPUS!  phibbbth!Clap
 
You must be kind to my "fine feathered" cousin "Penguin!"LOL
 
I have a collection of all of the "Bloom County" books, and a great deal of the toys thus generated!
 
I know that I probably mispelled "the tounge word" maybe it is or was "thibbitth", etc.?  But I  know it was this symbol; Tongue, and it is sent to you with all of the recognition you deserve!LOL


Edited by opuslola - 25 Feb 2011 at 08:09
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Feb 2011 at 08:25
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Feb 2011 at 09:02
What a strange little thread this is?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Feb 2011 at 09:21
Originally posted by fantasus fantasus wrote:

An example of the extreme differences between human population and "transformation" of different parts of "Eurasia": The size of contemporary Russia is about the same as South America but it is far less populated. The average population density of the rest of "Eurasia" much higher than the rest of the world.


South America has impacted the environment less simply because it population is usually concentrated in very large cities and sets of cities, while there are still large regions that are almost empty.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Feb 2011 at 09:21
Originally posted by Panther Panther wrote:

What a strange little thread this is?


Of course. Dr. Stragelove is in it... Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Feb 2011 at 10:26
I will risk my French again, by saying "Voila!"
 
Yes that dirty old cat!  Bill, he was!
 
I think that Opus' sound was somewhat different, but perhaps it varied from cartoon to comic!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Feb 2011 at 10:50
And, again, another of my favorite movies!  Dr. Strangelove!  What a great cast!  Sterling Hayden, George C. Scott, etc.!  And of course the navigator and pilot!  Played by James Earl Jones and Slim Pickens, as well as that guy who played Inspector Clouseau!  Clap  Amongst other greats! "OK,but you will have to answer to the Coca-cola company!"  His father was also a great character actor!  Can you guys remember Keenan Wynn?  The son of Ed?
 
Thanks for the memories!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Feb 2011 at 13:25
 
By the way it is suspected that Nature is on life-support somewhere in Sweden after being rescued in a comatose state by a notorious international eco-freak known to frequent these threads. He too has been known to advocate tasteless art and has raised the ire of Fatima Struggle (aka Lola Granola and jilted love-interest of a certain Opus Penguin).

Edited by drgonzaga - 25 Feb 2011 at 13:36
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Feb 2011 at 13:45
Dr. Gonzaga. Searching your pseudo-heraldic past, I found you aren't Gallician! But it is even worst, your origins are from the Canarias islands. Therefore your are a CANARIO (canary)...

I suspected you were a parrot LOL, but a Canario is close enough.

Picture of a Canario.






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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Feb 2011 at 16:01
You had best be careful Penguin when questioning one who descends from a family that already had 64 quarterings in their Arms by 1696! I can assure you there are no canaries there at all and not even a bar sinister! And the last thing you would want to do is raise the ire of a clan that "knows its own" spread not only throughout Latin America but Facebook as well! Besides, there are no canaries native to las Canarias and the name derives from rather short-sighted ancient sailors that confused monk seals for dogs!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Feb 2011 at 21:39
Originally posted by opuslola opuslola wrote:

Yes, my French sucks!  Thanks for reminding me!
 
But, pray tell, just what do you consider the difference between a "moat", a "ditch" and a "canal?"
 
Moats are deliberately dug for defensive purposes. Moats are a subclass of ditches: a ditch can be any small to medium-sized declavity in the ground, natural or artificial, not necessarily containing water. I dug a lot of ditches on vacation jobs in my youth. A canal is an artifical waterway deliberately dug to aid transport of goods by barge. 'Canals' as used in connection with Venice, for instance, are not really canals but branches of the sea between the original islands.
 
The English Channel is sometimes referred to as a 'ditch' or even 'the ditch', but that's to some extent metaphorical: 'ditch' is usually reserved to small features.
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The "ring roads" surrounding Lille, are the remains of old moats, and walls, etc.!
Some of them probably. But that's a big climbdown from your original claim, especially since you are now throwing in 'walls, etc.'. If you want simply to say thatmost medieveal towns were walled I certainly won't disagree. But it's hardly worth saying.
 
Lille itself was never surrounded by water, and certainly wasn't founded there because it was. Towns and cities for the most part are founded near water, for the obvious reason that water supplies are critical, but there's no particular reason for the water to be all around.
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Amstel is full of man made ditches, or canals, or moats!  Are you stating that they had no defensive part in the defense of the city?
Nope, though I am definitely saying theywere not constructed for that purpose. The canals of Amsterdam are canals pure and simple. 
Quote  
I also made my point clear above where I wrote;
 
"Now, I reiterate, I did not ever suggest that most cities were founded because the land was an island, I clearly stated that these "most important" cities (where conditions allowed) were mostly eventually created to act as islands, etc.!  What part of this do you not understand?"
That is NOT what you originally wrote. What's difficult to understand is what on earth you are trtying to say because you keep changing what you're saying.
This is what you originally wrote.
Originally posted by opuslola opuslola wrote:

What I meant to demonstrate above, was the fact that most all important cities of the Middle
Ages or later, were surrounded by water!
That's an unjustifiable statement and you have been steadily backing off from it all along.
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Certainly, if the "conditions did not allow for the use of water-filled moats", then they were not built!  Perhaps I could have been more clear in my first mention, but it is again as "obvious as the nose upon your face!"  Which might well now be growing larger?Wink
 
Sorry, I could not control my typing fingers!  But, concerning your mention of the city of Cologne, the following map, seems to show extant city walls with a large moat, at least up until the 19th century!
 
The map I grant is difficult to read, but it seems to me to shpw a walled city with no moat, with what are now the various streets of the Ring (Barbarossa, Hohenstaufen, Hohenzollern, etc.) running behind the walls. That's especially clear if you look at Deutz, the quarter of Cologne that is east of the river.
No it doesn't. Moscow was founded at the confluence of the Moskva and a tributary the name of which I forget. It therefore follows a not uncommon pattern of sitting in the angle between two rivers, with the third side open (as far as water is concerned). That in fact is what your map very clearly shows.
 
Quote
And those were "just off the top of my head!"
No they weren't. It's obvious from the URLs that you had to search for them.


Edited by gcle2003 - 25 Feb 2011 at 21:40
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Feb 2011 at 21:47
Originally posted by opuslola opuslola wrote:

Yes!  So do I, and it is mildly un-nerving to have people making wise-cracks about a fellow poster!  Perhaps, I am incorrect, but does not some code of conduct have any force here?
http://www.allempires.net/forum/ae-code-of-conduct-terms-of-use_topic123940&FID=19&PR=3.html
 
Recommended reading.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Feb 2011 at 01:23
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

...Besides, there are no canaries native to las Canarias and the name derives from rather short-sighted ancient sailors that confused monk seals for dogs!


Confused monk seas for dogs? Both these species bark.

That makes sense. LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Feb 2011 at 04:18
Just keep in mind Penguin that both also bite as your many "wounds" on your feathered carapace indicate--besides you should keep in mind that seals are one of the major predators of your species.
 
Now back to topic...
 
As Gcle has amply shown the notion that "islands" represented the major rationale for Medieval urbanization is little more than a thesis demanding unhistorical tenets as substantives. One need only look at the continuous history of Carcassonne to understandd why. The introduction of defensive designs in the 14th century can hardly be called a conscious replication of any "island" principle given that fact that the major motivator there was the introduction of the cannon to late Medieval warfare. Admittedly, I was fascinated by the effort at interpreting the origins of Paris as a fortified "island" given the fact that Roman Lutetia was no such thing:
 
 
One should also note that if you do wish to make generalizations over urbanization in the Medieval period one can not look at the relatively novel patterns of Northern Europe but must instead focus on the Mediterranean ambit for it is there that true continuity exists. Now would someone care to explore the mystery of Lugdunum Batavorum?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Feb 2011 at 04:38
As any fule no it is an advance base for the BEF in 1914 and 1939, accidentally caught up by a time slip that sent the whole of that particular beach back nearly 2,000 years during which time it was only occaasionally visible. One of the great mysteries of WW2 - why did Hitler stop the attack before Dunkirk in 1939 - was because the entire BEF and  few French units found their way into the timeslip and vanished from sight, leaving the German army scratching its head wondering where they had got to.
 
All this thanks to spells somewhat erratically cast by Merlin, who, just as described by CS Lewis in That Hideous Strength, had returned with Arthur to help the Britons in their hour of need (Note it is the Brittenburg not the Angleburg or Saxonburg).
 
The truth is, of course, stranger than fiction, though fiction does a pretty good job. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Feb 2011 at 04:45
Oh no! Caligula once again declares war on Neptune!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Feb 2011 at 07:50
And even Moscow, it seems;
 
 
Gcle- "No it doesn't. Moscow was founded at the confluence of the Moskva and a tributary the name of which I forget. It therefore follows a not uncommon pattern of sitting in the angle between two rivers, with the third side open (as far as water is concerned). That in fact is what your map very clearly shows."
 
Actually it does not show a possible confluence of the two streams in the upper right corner, which is not a part of the representation!  But it is close enough for "government work!" 
 
And those were "just off the top of my head!"
Gcle- "No they weren't. It's obvious from the URLs that you had to search for them."
 
Well of course gcle, to show you the very representations, I had to search for them!  Your "off the top of your head" did make me show that you were wrong , or possibly wrong, in a few instances!
 
And presenting places where by the cities were located upon "high places" or in the mountains, certainly does not take a lot of quick thinking to mention!  Besides you seem to live within a 5 hour drive of most of the places mentioned, and you have probably seen many of them in person, which is not the case with me!  So, by default, you do have the edge in that!
 
PS, have you ever really looked at the sites I mentioned?  I mean, before this disucussion?  I will make the assumption that a lot of the respondants to this thread had never before viewed them?
 
But, of course, as in so many things, I could well be wrong?
 
You also wrote above these words concerning personal conduct;
 
"http://www.allempires.net/forum/ae-code-of-conduct-terms-of-use_topic123940&FID=19&PR=3.html
 
Recommended reading."
 
Yes, I did read it!  Did I violate any of the rules?  Did any of the others?
 
Regards,
 
P. S.-Playing games with each other is fun, so please keep it going?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Feb 2011 at 23:39
Originally posted by opuslola opuslola wrote:

And even Moscow, it seems;
 
 
Gcle- "No it doesn't. Moscow was founded at the confluence of the Moskva and a tributary the name of which I forget. It therefore follows a not uncommon pattern of sitting in the angle between two rivers, with the third side open (as far as water is concerned). That in fact is what your map very clearly shows."
 
Actually it does not show a possible confluence of the two streams in the upper right corner, which is not a part of the representation!  But it is close enough for "government work!" 
 
You might at least try to be serious.
And how can anything not show something in the upper right corner which is not part of the representation? The sentence doesn't make sense.
 
If you're trying to say that the map may be inadequate because there may be a watery surround that it doesn't show, then it was pointless and stupid to post it in the first place, wasn't it? Any map of anywhere could indicate it was surrounded by water not shown in the map. <sigh>
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And those were "just off the top of my head!"
Gcle- "No they weren't. It's obvious from the URLs that you had to search for them."
 
Well of course gcle, to show you the very representations, I had to search for them!  Your "off the top of your head" did make me show that you were wrong , or possibly wrong, in a few instances!
Because it was strictly 'off the top of my head' I agree I was more likely to be wrong occasionally that if I had pondered. But you still didn't show me to be wrong in any instance - in fact your map of Moscow backed me up completely.
Quote
 
And presenting places where by the cities were located upon "high places" or in the mountains, certainly does not take a lot of quick thinking to mention!  Besides you seem to live within a 5 hour drive of most of the places mentioned, and you have probably seen many of them in person, which is not the case with me!  So, by default, you do have the edge in that!
Also I've seriously studied the subject, albeit some time ago now. Back in my undergrauate days, the development of the medieval town was a rather fashionable subject. And I don't generalise from inadequate information.
Quote  
PS, have you ever really looked at the sites I mentioned?  I mean, before this disucussion?  I will make the assumption that a lot of the respondants to this thread had never before viewed them?
Of course I have looked at many of them, though I doubt anybody has looked at all. Especially in the old Netherlands, where, as you point out, I happen to live and have done for 25 years
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But, of course, as in so many things, I could well be wrong?
Why the question mark?
Quote
 
You also wrote above these words concerning personal conduct;
 
"http://www.allempires.net/forum/ae-code-of-conduct-terms-of-use_topic123940&FID=19&PR=3.html
 
Recommended reading."
 
Yes, I did read it!  Did I violate any of the rules?  Did any of the others?
You asked if there were rules of conduct in these forums. I answered you by pointing you to them. I assumed you were being sincere in asking: it seems idiotic to ask if there are rules if you've already read them.
Quote
 
Regards,
 
P. S.-Playing games with each other is fun, so please keep it going?
Until and unless it just gets boring. I don't come here to play silly games with people.


Edited by gcle2003 - 26 Feb 2011 at 23:44
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Feb 2011 at 11:44
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Originally posted by opuslola opuslola wrote:

Yes, my French sucks!  Thanks for reminding me!
 
But, pray tell, just what do you consider the difference between a "moat", a "ditch" and a "canal?"
 
Moats are deliberately dug for defensive purposes. Moats are a subclass of ditches: a ditch can be any small to medium-sized declavity in the ground, natural or artificial, not necessarily containing water. I dug a lot of ditches on vacation jobs in my youth. A canal is an artifical waterway deliberately dug to aid transport of goods by barge. 'Canals' as used in connection with Venice, for instance, are not really canals but branches of the sea between the original islands.
 
The English Channel is sometimes referred to as a 'ditch' or even 'the ditch', but that's to some extent metaphorical: 'ditch' is usually reserved to small features.
Quote  
The "ring roads" surrounding Lille, are the remains of old moats, and walls, etc.!
Some of them probably. But that's a big climbdown from your original claim, especially since you are now throwing in 'walls, etc.'. If you want simply to say thatmost medieveal towns were walled I certainly won't disagree. But it's hardly worth saying.
 
Lille itself was never surrounded by water, and certainly wasn't founded there because it was. Towns and cities for the most part are founded near water, for the obvious reason that water supplies are critical, but there's no particular reason for the water to be all around.
Quote  
 
Actually gcle-2003, you again placed your foot in your mouth!  According to Wiki, if you place any merit in its words, are these words;  "

From 830 until around 910, the Vikings invaded Flanders. After the destruction caused by Norman and Magyar invasion, the eastern part of the region fell under the eyes of the area's princes.

The name Lille comes from insula or l'Isla, i. "the island", since the area was at one time marshy. This name was used for the castle of the Counts of Flanders, built on dry land in the middle of the marsh. The Dutch name for the town, Rijsel, has the same meaning ("Ryssel" in French Flemish, from "ter Yssel" meaning "to/at the island").

The Count of Flanders controlled a number of old Roman cities (Boulogne, Arras, Cambrai) as well as some founded by the Carolingians (Valenciennes, Saint-Omer, Ghent, Bruges).

The County of Flanders thus extended to the left bank of the Scheldt, one of the richest and most prosperous regions of Europe."

Now are we clear that I may actually be correct and you might well be wrong?

Amstel is full of man made ditches, or canals, or moats!  Are you stating that they had no defensive part in the defense of the city?
Nope, though I am definitely saying theywere not constructed for that purpose. The canals of Amsterdam are canals pure and simple.
 
And, just how do you know the above is true?  Do you know that a canal and a moat can provide the same amount of purposes?  Thus the purpose of the canals might well be of a dual nature?  Come on man, give it a break? 
Quote  
I also made my point clear above where I wrote;
 
"Now, I reiterate, I did not ever suggest that most cities were founded because the land was an island, I clearly stated that these "most important" cities (where conditions allowed) were mostly eventually created to act as islands, etc.!  What part of this do you not understand?"
That is NOT what you originally wrote. What's difficult to understand is what on earth you are trtying to say because you keep changing what you're saying.
This is what you originally wrote.
Originally posted by opuslola opuslola wrote:

What I meant to demonstrate above, was the fact that most all important cities of the Middle
Ages or later, were surrounded by water!
That's an unjustifiable statement and you have been steadily backing off from it all along.
Quote  
Certainly, if the "conditions did not allow for the use of water-filled moats", then they were not built!  Perhaps I could have been more clear in my first mention, but it is again as "obvious as the nose upon your face!"  Which might well now be growing larger?Wink
 
Sorry, I could not control my typing fingers!  But, concerning your mention of the city of Cologne, the following map, seems to show extant city walls with a large moat, at least up until the 19th century!
 
The map I grant is difficult to read, but it seems to me to shpw a walled city with no moat, with what are now the various streets of the Ring (Barbarossa, Hohenstaufen, Hohenzollern, etc.) running behind the walls. That's especially clear if you look at Deutz, the quarter of Cologne that is east of the river.
No it doesn't. Moscow was founded at the confluence of the Moskva and a tributary the name of which I forget. It therefore follows a not uncommon pattern of sitting in the angle between two rivers, with the third side open (as far as water is concerned). That in fact is what your map very clearly shows.
 
Quote
And those were "just off the top of my head!"
No they weren't. It's obvious from the URLs that you had to search for them.
You are usually not so particular about posts, especially your own, as I have proved above concerning the origin of Lille/L'Isle!  You keep trying to tie me down to specific statement, and the above is one that I stand by!
As wel I stand by my asseration that the "moat" or "canal", shown here;
 
 
Did, or was intended to, extend around the entire city!  Perhaps this particular map, was  made before the completion of the "grand canal?", but even in the lessor extent, it seems it encompassed over 70% of the landward side!
 
Do you also have a problem with Rotterdam?
 
 
You may, of course, include metaphorical words to defend yourself!
 
Just admit it, you have lost this small battle!
 
Regards,
 
Ron


Edited by opuslola - 27 Feb 2011 at 11:55
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Feb 2011 at 12:50
What battle? That you hurled a petard and encountered an incessant cannonade hardly entitles a proclamation of victory either with respect to the Middle Ages or urbanization. That you mention Rotterdam even undermines your argument. A dam was not constructed on the Rotte until 1263 as part of the Schielands Dike and the town itself does not come into being until 1340, with the associated canal (the Rotterdamse Schie) brought into being in the subsequent decade not for any "defensive" purpose but so as to grant the small town access to the larger towns in its environs. To be frank, the many small counties of the left bank of the Rhine were hicksville until the latter part of the 16th century and the turmouil that engulfed the richer counties of Flanders, Brabant , and Luxembourg.
 
In short: Rotterdam does not qualify as "evidence" for the original posit either.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Feb 2011 at 12:59
Gcle-2003 wrote concerning my statement concerning "rules" these words;
 
"You asked if there were rules of conduct in these forums. I answered you by pointing you to them. I assumed you were being sincere in asking: it seems idiotic to ask if there are rules if you've already read them."
 
What it seems sir, is that the rules (and the enforcement of them) are supposed to be a part of your position on this site!
 
Of course I was speaking tounge and cheek, just to see if you were capable of paying attention?Wink  That is unless you think that I am a complete imbecile?  But, perhaps you so do suppose?
 
And, I saw, by your response, that you seem unable to enforce your own rules!
 
Shame sir, shame!
 
Regards anyway!
 
Ron
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Feb 2011 at 21:39
Originally posted by opuslola opuslola wrote:

[
You are usually not so particular about posts, especially your own, as I have proved above concerning the origin of Lille/L'Isle! 
The origin of 'Lille' is in 'L'Isle' referring to the island fortress that the city grew up about. Itdoesn't mean that the city of Lille was an island, any more than the fact that the Tower of London is moated means that London is an island. Or any more than the town of Lomme (now part of Lille) was buit on a man.¨
Quote  
You keep trying to tie me down to specific statement,
It would be nice, yes.
Quote
and the above is one that I stand by!
As wel I stand by my asseration that the "moat" or "canal", shown here;
 
 
Did, or was intended to, extend around the entire city!  Perhaps this particular map, was  made before the completion of the "grand canal?", but even in the lessor extent, it seems it encompassed over 70% of the landward side!
The ring wall around the western bank settlement is shown with a dark line all around it - not the normal way of designating a moat. Immediately inside that line is a strip obviously intended to indicate the thickness of the wall.  
Quote
 
Do you also have a problem with Rotterdam?
 
I don't and never have denied there were moated towns in parts of Europe in the middle ages.
Quote
 
You may, of course, include metaphorical words to defend yourself!
What on earth does that mean?
Quote
 
Just admit it, you have lost this small battle!
 
 
You started out claiming that almost all important towns were surrounded by water. You have subsequently given up all of that claim and been reduced to asserting that some towns, most of them relatively insignificant had defensive moats buit around then, or partially around them.
 
Which is a massive climbdown from the first assertion, and one that noone would have paid much arttention to if that had been all you claimed, it being blatantly obvious.
 
Don't try and mask it. The result is too plain.
 
Moreover this is an economic  forum not a military history one, and the style and type of fortification has no significance in the economic development of the town.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote King Kang of Mu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Feb 2011 at 00:37
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Moreover this is an economic  forum not a military history one, and the style and type of fortification has no significance in the economic development of the town.
 
it wouldn't surprise me if there were very few minor exceptions but thanks for pointing out that we are getting little drifted away from  the original topic by pinguin.Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Feb 2011 at 00:48
Absolutely. This thread has nothing to do with the original question.

The question was how was Europe (and Asia, particularly China) tranformed to fit human needs and development. Certainly, we know that Holland was made almost from scratch, taking little by little land from the sea. It is less known that most of the modern European environment is artificial.
Channels, cleanning wetlands, burning or cutting whole forests, etc.

That's what I wanted to discuss, and also why if Europe and China did it, Brazil shouldn't do the same with the Amazon?


 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Feb 2011 at 02:51
A question has been posed:
 
That's what I wanted to discuss, and also why if Europe and China did it, Brazil shouldn't do the same with the Amazon?

Well the Chinese are not upset in the least and you will certainly not find an official Chinese presence in the circles of Eco-freakdom as agiprop. Further one can not confuse the Argument for Conservation with the fancies of the protest crowd and their demands for stasis nor the illusions of international bureaucrats and their fiction over "carbon-sinks" [which essentially boil down to old "but not in my backyard" cavils]. Humanity has been transforming their immediate environs from the first moment it dawned on Homo sapiens that the cavernicular sucked!
 
It is as simple as that...all the rest is advocacy rhetoric.
 
PS: Notice the furor that follows...the late Bill safire would have loved it!


Edited by drgonzaga - 28 Feb 2011 at 13:14
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Feb 2011 at 04:13
Curious. I agree with you in this, Dr. Gonzaga.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Feb 2011 at 09:57
And, I also disagree with the esteemed Doctor!
And especially the use of this word by him, thus the word "cavernicular?"  If I might well  ask, just what is the meaning of this word might be?, and just why would you use it?  It seems that this word does not seem to exist!
 
cavernicular, then all following posts are supposed to be predicated upon your use of this word?
 
Sorry, but I am more than normally confused!
 


Edited by opuslola - 28 Feb 2011 at 09:57
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Feb 2011 at 10:37
When the ignorance surpasses him, Dr. Gonzaga feel free to invent words.
Indeed, the word doesn't exist, as the Webster dictionary on line says:

cavernicular

The word you've entered isn't in the dictionary. Click on a spelling suggestion below or try again using the search bar above.

  1. cavernicolous

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