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Human migrations

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Feb 2014 at 00:03
Originally posted by beorna beorna wrote:


Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

beorna:

I understand that the La Tene theory is under serious debate.

Until such time as I'm confronted with scientific evidence to the contrary, I maintain my position, as no doubt you will too.

Please show me some evidence of the Bell Beaker mass migration.

I asked it above, what do you understand as "mass migartion"? Migrations were done by smaller groups, in maximum to a few thousands. We have no good reports about it. The first informations are from Germanic eras. here we have numbers in maximum to 80,000. But that was probably not the rule. And AFAIK are even migrations of those Germanics archaeologically hard to prove.



That's precisely my point.

A Mass Migration would have involved thousands of people, sufficient to influence the culture and even the language of the countries that they migrated to or through. The Bell Beaker Pottery uptake was not, in itself, a culture, merely women taking advantage of a new fashion in pottery.

Of course there were smaller group migrations, but I'm saying that, IF there was a migration accompanying the Bell Beaker Potter phenomena, it was not sufficient to create a cultural change of it's own.

I reiterate, for the third time, the increase in the use of Bell Beaker Pottery throughout western Europe is not evidence, in itself, of a cultural change, which would surely have come about had there been, for example, thousands of people migrating with the pottery.

AND, you still haven't provided evidence to the contrary.

It's pointless continuing this discussion with you if you keep going around in circles.

Edited by toyomotor - 18 Feb 2014 at 00:07
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Feb 2014 at 21:12
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

beorna:

I understand that the La Tene theory is under serious debate.

Until such time as I'm confronted with scientific evidence to the contrary, I maintain my position, as no doubt you will too.

Please show me some evidence of the Bell Beaker mass migration.

I asked it above, what do you understand as "mass migartion"? Migrations were done by smaller groups, in maximum to a few thousands. We have no good reports about it. The first informations are from Germanic eras. here we have numbers in maximum to 80,000. But that was probably not the rule. And AFAIK are even migrations of those Germanics archaeologically hard to prove.
Etiam si omnes, ego non.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Feb 2014 at 20:48
beorna:

I understand that the La Tene theory is under serious debate.

Until such time as I'm confronted with scientific evidence to the contrary, I maintain my position, as no doubt you will too.

Please show me some evidence of the Bell Beaker mass migration.
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Feb 2014 at 20:39
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Originally posted by beorna beorna wrote:

First of all, what do you mean with "There is no evidence that there was any mass migration"What evidence do you need? Is there evidence, that there was no migration at all?
Second, what is for you a mass migration?

The problem with all those archaeological cultures is, that they can't say a thing about the ethnic structure, about the language. So all is just hypothesis.
But we have analogies. Germanic migrations, Slavic migrations to name just a few. They can show us how migrations change a linguistic or ethnic situation. Slavs e.g. did not migrate in masses, but they migrated. Slavic culture was adopted by others, via trade, after conquest, by neighbourhood.


Don't twist my words!

What I said was that there is no evidence of a mass migration accompanying the Bell Beaker spread.

Of course there were mass migrations, and yes, cultural spread, and a lingual spread, and to deny an archaeological connection with language is to deny fact.

There is simply not enough evidence to claim that an archaeological group is linguistically and ethnically homogenous. I wrote this somewhere about the LaTene culture. In the border area between Germanics and Celts, several celtic civitates are said to be germanic, while some germanic gentes have Celltic names and they all share the same LaTene-culture. especially for the bellbeaker culture, there are to many competiting hypothesis to say where it originated, if it was due to migrations that the culture spread, whether it was an upper class phenomenon etc.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Feb 2014 at 10:18
Originally posted by beorna beorna wrote:

First of all, what do you mean with "There is no evidence that there was any mass migration"What evidence do you need? Is there evidence, that there was no migration at all?
Second, what is for you a mass migration?

The problem with all those archaeological cultures is, that they can't say a thing about the ethnic structure, about the language. So all is just hypothesis.
But we have analogies. Germanic migrations, Slavic migrations to name just a few. They can show us how migrations change a linguistic or ethnic situation. Slavs e.g. did not migrate in masses, but they migrated. Slavic culture was adopted by others, via trade, after conquest, by neighbourhood.


Don't twist my words!

What I said was that there is no evidence of a mass migration accompanying the Bell Beaker spread.

Of course there were mass migrations, and yes, cultural spread, and a lingual spread, and to deny an archaeological connection with language is to deny fact.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Feb 2014 at 23:51
First of all, what do you mean with "There is no evidence that there was any mass migration"What evidence do you need? Is there evidence, that there was no migration at all?
Second, what is for you a mass migration?

The problem with all those archaeological cultures is, that they can't say a thing about the ethnic structure, about the language. So all is just hypothesis.
But we have analogies. Germanic migrations, Slavic migrations to name just a few. They can show us how migrations change a linguistic or ethnic situation. Slavs e.g. did not migrate in masses, but they migrated. Slavic culture was adopted by others, via trade, after conquest, by neighbourhood.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Feb 2014 at 23:02
Originally posted by beorna beorna wrote:

We can see it today and we know it for the past. People migrate. Therefor it is probably wrong to think cultural or languistic changes are simply based on trade, marriages or adopted customs. But it would be probably wrong as well to think, that these changes are only the result of migrations, especially mass migrations.


You're having an each way bet! And you're wrong.

My theory, and agreed upon by others, is that, for example the Bell Beaker pottery gained popularity throughout Europe, but to call it "a culture" is wrong. There is no evidence that there was any mass migration to accompany the use of Bell Beaker Pottery throughout Western Europe.

If you believe that the various "pottery cultures" as they're known indicate a mass migration of people, show us your evidence.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Feb 2014 at 22:17
We can see it today and we know it for the past. People migrate. Therefor it is probably wrong to think cultural or languistic changes are simply based on trade, marriages or adopted customs. But it would be probably wrong as well to think, that these changes are only the result of migrations, especially mass migrations.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Feb 2014 at 20:14
Originally posted by beorna beorna wrote:


Originally posted by sunitas sunitas wrote:

9,000 yrs old Latvia/Lithuanian language show very similarities with Sumerian language. 
Latvia/Lithuania is 10,000 yrs old (Uralic) civilization and Sumer is no more than 5,000 yrs old. Gradually, the Eastern Europeans (Uralic speakers) were loosing their languages to Indo-Europeans; Sami and Finns have still maintained their separate identity. Turkic belongs Altaic language family with Mongolians and Manchu-Tungus. Altaic and Uralic both share few common features and can be considered sister language. Culture could be different in the time period as Indo-Europeans and Mediterranean were highly influenced with Uralic culture and the affect is visible in their rituals, mythologies, gods, and customs. Indo-Europeans didn't come to Sumer so they could have maintained their ancient language and culture both. Sumer were more close Mediterranean nations and Turkey had a contact with indo-Europeans and Mediterranean, both. 

Latvian and Lithuanian are baltic languages, which are part of the huge indo-european linguistic family. The indo-europeans migration, which led to the evolution of the linguistic branches happened much later than 9ky ago. If you look to the corded war culture, you can see, that it covered a large territory where later balts, slavs, germanics, maybe even celts originated.
There is little known about Baltic words earlier than the medieval. I would like to know, how you know how your Latvian/Lithuanian sounded 9ky ago?
It is very hard to trace languages back into the past, so every of those linguistic super- or macrofamilies are debated. Even the former so-called Ural-Altaic superfamily is today highly disputed.



There is a later school of thought that the so called "Pottery Cultures" mean precisely that, the pottery type moved but not necessarily accompanied by any type of mass migration. Pottery, the province of women, more likely moved as the result of trade or "marriage".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jan 2014 at 22:20
Originally posted by sunitas sunitas wrote:

Yes, it's proved that Balts and Slavs words are of later origin, after the emergence of corded ware culture. There were no distinct language branch like Balts and Slavs before the spread of corded ware culture. The Balts and Slavs predecessors were speaking the common proto language, which was a part of Uralic language. You can find many similarities in Proto-Uralic language and Sumerian language. 
please refer: Lexiline: History of Civilization

There are several theoriesabout the origin of slavic and baltic languages and about a possible balto-slavic or even germano-balto-slavic family. All theories have one in common, nobody places balto-slavic into a an uralic language. It is true, that e.g. latvian has uralic influence, but they have as well germanic and slavic influence, but all due to the neighbourhood to all threse groups.

I don't know yet, how many expressions in Sumeric match Uralic or Proto-uralic. But Sumeric was also connected with a several other linguistic families, even with Bantu or Tibetian. If there are indeed some similarities, then it it much more possible, that this is due to a hypothetic nostratic macrofamily. But that was tens of thousands years ago.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sunitas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jan 2014 at 16:54
Yes, it's proved that Balts and Slavs words are of later origin, after the emergence of corded ware culture. There were no distinct language branch like Balts and Slavs before the spread of corded ware culture. The Balts and Slavs predecessors were speaking the common proto language, which was a part of Uralic language. You can find many similarities in Proto-Uralic language and Sumerian language. 
please refer: Lexiline: History of Civilization
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jan 2014 at 06:27
Originally posted by sunitas sunitas wrote:

9,000 yrs old Latvia/Lithuanian language show very similarities with Sumerian language. 
Latvia/Lithuania is 10,000 yrs old (Uralic) civilization and Sumer is no more than 5,000 yrs old. Gradually, the Eastern Europeans (Uralic speakers) were loosing their languages to Indo-Europeans; Sami and Finns have still maintained their separate identity. Turkic belongs Altaic language family with Mongolians and Manchu-Tungus. Altaic and Uralic both share few common features and can be considered sister language. Culture could be different in the time period as Indo-Europeans and Mediterranean were highly influenced with Uralic culture and the affect is visible in their rituals, mythologies, gods, and customs. Indo-Europeans didn't come to Sumer so they could have maintained their ancient language and culture both. Sumer were more close Mediterranean nations and Turkey had a contact with indo-Europeans and Mediterranean, both. 

Latvian and Lithuanian are baltic languages, which are part of the huge indo-european linguistic family. The indo-europeans migration, which led to the evolution of the linguistic branches happened much later than 9ky ago. If you look to the corded war culture, you can see, that it covered a large territory where later balts, slavs, germanics, maybe even celts originated.
There is little known about Baltic words earlier than the medieval. I would like to know, how you know how your Latvian/Lithuanian sounded 9ky ago?
It is very hard to trace languages back into the past, so every of those linguistic super- or macrofamilies are debated. Even the former so-called Ural-Altaic superfamily is today highly disputed.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sunitas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jan 2014 at 22:34
10,000 yrs old Latvia/Lithuania culture, mythologies, rituals were similar to Polar Uralic (Sami, Samoyedic, and Yukaghir). I have written an  article on this topic. I tried to summarized things with minimum doubts. I would appreciate if you go there and let me know if I have missed any points.

http://kuchhnahin.blogspot.in/

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sunitas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jan 2014 at 22:29
9,000 yrs old Latvia/Lithuanian language show very similarities with Sumerian language. 
Latvia/Lithuania is 10,000 yrs old (Uralic) civilization and Sumer is no more than 5,000 yrs old. Gradually, the Eastern Europeans (Uralic speakers) were loosing their languages to Indo-Europeans; Sami and Finns have still maintained their separate identity. Turkic belongs Altaic language family with Mongolians and Manchu-Tungus. Altaic and Uralic both share few common features and can be considered sister language. Culture could be different in the time period as Indo-Europeans and Mediterranean were highly influenced with Uralic culture and the affect is visible in their rituals, mythologies, gods, and customs. Indo-Europeans didn't come to Sumer so they could have maintained their ancient language and culture both. Sumer were more close Mediterranean nations and Turkey had a contact with indo-Europeans and Mediterranean, both. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 2014 at 02:53
Originally posted by sunitas sunitas wrote:

After the last ice age, Proto-Uralic people have migrated to Northern and Eastern Europe and came in contact with primitive PIE who were dwelling in forest steppes region. Not only the PIE language but their culture, pottery design, and burial rituals were also influenced with Eastern European Uralic (Latvia/Lithuania) culture. Surprisingly, Sumerian language shares many similarities with Uralic language of Eastern Europe (Latvia/ Lithuania)—existing before nomadic PIE incursion to Eastern Europe--and the same similarities have been found with extinct Basque (earliest people of Welsh) language as well. Eastern European Uralic influences can be found in Dnipper-Donnets and Bug-Dniester Neolithic age pottery, geometrical designs, myths, themes, and burial rituals. In addition to, there are few common features are observed between ancient Uralic language and Steppes language.
cultural impact on these civilizations depends on their various migration patterns. 

Latvian and Lithuanian Uralic? Sumerian Uralic? I think the theory, that the Sumerian cukture is Turkic has been proven wrong more than once.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sunitas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 2014 at 01:30
After the last ice age, Proto-Uralic people have migrated to Northern and Eastern Europe and came in contact with primitive PIE who were dwelling in forest steppes region. Not only the PIE language but their culture, pottery design, and burial rituals were also influenced with Eastern European Uralic (Latvia/Lithuania) culture. Surprisingly, Sumerian language shares many similarities with Uralic language of Eastern Europe (Latvia/ Lithuania)—existing before nomadic PIE incursion to Eastern Europe--and the same similarities have been found with extinct Basque (earliest people of Welsh) language as well. Eastern European Uralic influences can be found in Dnipper-Donnets and Bug-Dniester Neolithic age pottery, geometrical designs, myths, themes, and burial rituals. In addition to, there are few common features are observed between ancient Uralic language and Steppes language.
cultural impact on these civilizations depends on their various migration patterns. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rocket7777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Oct 2013 at 03:14
Here's 2013 genetic(haplogroup Y) map of human migrations.
Of course there's lots mix and bidirectional movements, but very good general spread of humans.


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