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If there is a God...

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Akolouthos View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Akolouthos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Sep 2014 at 04:54
Originally posted by caldrail caldrail wrote:

At the risk of making the same banal, pseudointellectual triticisms trotted out against the herculean efforts of some of the greatest scholars of the past several thousand year, I would have to point out that the greatest minds in Christendom are not necessarily the ones popularly espoused as such. It's like music. Sure, there are a few extraordinarily talented individuals selling records among the general mass of common or garden performers. There are also a great many more talented people who remain undiscovered or unwilling to progress to fame and fortune.

The analogy works further as well, because people generally listen for reasons other than intellectual credibility or rationale. Some of sanest, most intelligent advice, often goes ignored, mostly because what is being said isn't popular sentiment/rationale, understood, or is being spouted by those of lesser charisma or ability to command attention from the media.

But then, Christendom isn't widely known for intelligent conversation anyway :D


And so... you have said... nothing? I am sorry, caldrail. I expected more of a response to my post than that. To try to theatrically dress up the same sort of derision that I legitimately derided is a bit... well, pathetic, really.

If you do have an actual point, you are free to make it, but please be open, honest, and clear.

-Akolouthos
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Sep 2014 at 08:34
I've often railed against religion, but one thing is inescapably true, that is that the Ten Commandments are a good guide on how we should try to conduct our lives.
 
In the Christian world, the Ten Commandments have also provided the basis for our legal systems.
 
But, at the end of the day, as I've also said before, if belief in a Supreme Being provides some people with a sense of security and contentment, so be it.
 
Who am I to deny them?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Northman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Sep 2014 at 19:33
I can only envy my old friend Akolouthos for his deep knowledge about- and his devotion to the faith we all maybe could and should feel so strongly about.
However - I have to say that my knowledge of life on this planet plus my own experinces in life have lead me to think - if there is a allmighty God as claimed in the bible and as Ako believes in, I will find something else to believe in - if I ever should need something to worship.
The God of Abraham is not doing what I would expect from someone reknown for merci and love.

The horrors and sufferings shared by innocent people and children all over the globe has been rampant through all times - not once is there any record of devine intervention, on the contrary. The conditions are only getting worse - hunger, deceases, genocide, religious wars etc. etc. 
The excuse for God not to take any action would naturally be, that we don't do anything ourselves....   although we actually, as fellow humans, do have the means today to make a difference we don't do it.

Toyo - you mention The Ten Commandments - but they are only a small part of the law - a law that noone can live by today. So we take only what is convenient for us and leave the rest well forgotten. The Ten Commandments are also hopelessly outdated. 
Jesus said one sentence in his teachings to us that makes everything in the old law obsolete  - "Love Thy Neighbor"
If you live by that, you would never think of breaking any of the Ten Commandments.

Who can claim to be a Christian anyways?  If we should adhere to what Jesus demanded of his followers, noone in a modern society could come near that lifestyle.

So - I have stopped searching for a reason to believe - but there is one set of values I am trying to live by - to the best of my ability - and that I find in alignment with my mindset - the teachings of Jesus. 

~  Northman

   
   If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough.    (Albert Einstein)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Sep 2014 at 03:18
Northman:
I agree with what you say, and I share your sentiments.
But don't take my posts as being necessarily my personal view on some issues-as I've pointed out in my signature,"Sometimes I like to play the Devils Advocate........"
 
But, in this so-called modern world, it seems that we have two competing Gods-one of Christianity which preaches love, kindness and forgiveness-versus-one which preaches violence, hatred and death to non-believers.
 
Obviously these conflicted doctrines cannot be of the same God, so we end up with two Gods, or more.
 
If one were to study religions around the world, and perhaps dismiss animalism and shamanism, one would still be left with the inescapable conclusion that there must be a whole host of Gods to choose from-which one to choose?
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Panther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Sep 2014 at 10:03
First thought; How many translations has the bible been through in the last two thousand years? Do we know what has been changed? What's been left out? And what had remained factually correct & unchanged over the last the two millennium?

Originally posted by Northman Northman wrote:

I can only envy my old friend Akolouthos for his deep knowledge about- and his devotion to the faith we all maybe could and should feel so strongly about.
However - I have to say that my knowledge of life on this planet plus my own experinces in life have lead me to think - if there is a allmighty God as claimed in the bible and as Ako believes in, I will find something else to believe in - if I ever should need something to worship.
The God of Abraham is not doing what I would expect from someone reknown for merci and love.

 
As i always understood it: Mercy and love are for the soul and not these pounds of flesh.

Quote
The horrors and sufferings shared by innocent people and children all over the globe has been rampant through all times - not once is there any record of devine intervention, on the contrary.


Christians have pointed to original sin as the lot of human suffering. "Divine intervention", whether you believe it or not and however we choose to define it, has been recorded. What once was believed as miracles are now explained away as extraordinary events following a chain of action which leads to the only logical conclusion to be inferred. The truth! But who's truth?


Quote The conditions are only getting worse - hunger, deceases, genocide, religious wars etc. etc.


Your going to hate my mentioing this. But that is what the bible has always been saying would happen. What do other religions say?

Quote
The excuse for God not to take any action would naturally be, that we don't do anything ourselves.... 


How do we know God is not involved? (If a person doesn't believe, then just humor me, please.)

Quote
 although we actually, as fellow humans, do have the means today to make a difference we don't do it.


I am curious, but what are the means you are thinking of? Reading this quote, i'm thinking... One world government?

Quote
Toyo - you mention The Ten Commandments - but they are only a small part of the law - a law that noone can live by today. So we take only what is convenient for us and leave the rest well forgotten. The Ten Commandments are also hopelessly outdated. 
Jesus said one sentence in his teachings to us that makes everything in the old law obsolete  - "Love Thy Neighbor"
If you live by that, you would never think of breaking any of the Ten Commandments.


I don't think they are. They are pretty basic principles of ethics (& prayer which many disavow in our modern world), in which... a lot of us adhere to all the while unaware of it, specifically the ethics.

Quote
Who can claim to be a Christian anyways?  If we should adhere to what Jesus demanded of his followers, noone in a modern society could come near that lifestyle.


They couldn't back then either. In fact, Jesus said so himself. But then went on to say "that with God, anything is possible." (Mind you, i am no theologian. I am quoting from memory)

Quote
So - I have stopped searching for a reason to believe - but there is one set of values I am trying to live by - to the best of my ability - and that I find in alignment with my mindset - the teachings of Jesus. 

~  Northman



How do his teachings affect you or anyone of us? What have we really learned?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Panther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Sep 2014 at 10:21
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

 
But, in this so-called modern world, it seems that we have two competing Gods-one of Christianity which preaches love, kindness and forgiveness-versus-one which preaches violence, hatred and death to non-believers.


Christianity went through the exact near same thing that is currently afflicting the Islamic religion.

Quote
Obviously these conflicted doctrines cannot be of the same God, so we end up with two Gods, or more.
 


It is always a possibility of misinterpretation of the original source? I mean, it's not like humans have never put their own spin on events, had their own agendas, try to control others by proclaiming it comes from the highest authority of God himself, when we really have no clue if it does or not. What i mean is, that these two beings, might they be one in the same that we have differentiated by enforcing a definition onto them as an "other" whenever a religious subject pops up?. I don't know? But i've always wondered about it.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Northman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Sep 2014 at 11:51
Panther old buddy - thank you for trying to answer my outburst. I know how much it means to you, but you only confirm my thoughts on the matter...  and confirm what stated in my first post a while back.

There are an abundance of excuses for God not to intervene - you can dig up a passage from the  bible which can be read as an excuse for everything anyone can bring forward and ask "why is this or that happening". 


Originally posted by Panther Panther wrote:

First thought; How many translations has the bible been through in the last two thousand years? Do we know what has been changed? What's been left out? And what had remained factually correct & unchanged over the last the two millennium?

I know Ako could give us some insight of this - but whole gospels are left out for some reason - not because God said so, but the "editors"...  - the human powers ...

Originally posted by Northman Northman wrote:

I can only envy my old friend Akolouthos for his deep knowledge about- and his devotion to the faith we all maybe could and should feel so strongly about.
However - I have to say that my knowledge of life on this planet plus my own experinces in life have lead me to think - if there is a allmighty God as claimed in the bible and as Ako believes in, I will find something else to believe in - if I ever should need something to worship.
The God of Abraham is not doing what I would expect from someone renown for mercy and love.

Quote
As i always understood it: Mercy and love are for the soul and not these pounds of flesh.

So, the millions of children who never even heard of God, they can suffer, starve and die from hunger and illness without anyone divine reacting - and their souls are lost on top of that.
But if we have heard about God and pray to him, our souls are saved?
  

Quote
The horrors and sufferings shared by innocent people and children all over the globe has been rampant through all times - not once is there any record of devine intervention, on the contrary.

Quote
Christians have pointed to original sin as the lot of human suffering. "Divine intervention", whether you believe it or not and however we choose to define it, has been recorded. What once was believed as miracles are now explained away as extraordinary events following a chain of action which leads to the only logical conclusion to be inferred. The truth! But who's truth?
Divine intervention has been recorded? - where and when?
We are not talking about Moses and the Red Sea are we?

Quote The conditions are only getting worse - hunger, deceases, genocide, religious wars etc. etc.

Quote
Your going to hate my mentioing this. But that is what the bible has always been saying would happen. What do other religions say?

That is my point as mentioned before - always possible to dig up an excuse from the Bible.

Quote
The excuse for God not to take any action would naturally be, that we don't do anything ourselves.... 


How do we know God is not involved? (If a person doesn't believe, then just humor me, please.)

Quote
 although we actually, as fellow humans, do have the means today to make a difference we don't do it.

Quote
I am curious, but what are the means you are thinking of? Reading this quote, i'm thinking... One world government? 
No - why would I want another "One World Government"
We already have one almighthy, and he isn't doing anything - that's why we have this conversation!   Smile
No, what I was aiming at here is, that 2/3 (if not more) of the inhabitants on this globe is living below what I would considered decent standards (I didn't say poverty or any other normal measurement).
We, on the other hand are living in a capitalistic part of the world where the only goal is to grab as much from those who have less, as possible. Exploiting who and what we can without any thought or conscience for anything but ourselves.
If the readiness to share was a little more popular, things could be different - but it's not - me, me, me is the dominant war-cry here.

Quote
Toyo - you mention The Ten Commandments - but they are only a small part of the law - a law that noone can live by today. So we take only what is convenient for us and leave the rest well forgotten. The Ten Commandments are also hopelessly outdated. 
Jesus said one sentence in his teachings to us that makes everything in the old law obsolete  - "Love Thy Neighbor"
If you live by that, you would never think of breaking any of the Ten Commandments.

Quote
I don't think they are. They are pretty basic principles of ethics (& prayer which many disavow in our modern world), in which... a lot of us adhere to all the while unaware of it, specifically the ethics.

I don't disagree, but I was just making a point of The teachings of Jesus vs the old law - again, if you pick and chose from the law you are making a new law yourself. That's why the old law is obsolete - no one can live by it - so we have the new teachings Jesus gave us. If you live by them, you will not steal, you will not murder, you will not ... and so on.  
Quote
Who can claim to be a Christian anyways?  If we should adhere to what Jesus demanded of his followers, noone in a modern society could come near that lifestyle.


They couldn't back then either. In fact, Jesus said so himself. But then went on to say "that with God, anything is possible." (Mind you, i am no theologian. I am quoting from memory)

Quote
So - I have stopped searching for a reason to believe - but there is one set of values I am trying to live by - to the best of my ability - and that I find in alignment with my mindset - the teachings of Jesus. 

~  Northman


Quote
How do his teachings affect you or anyone of us? What have we really learned?


In my case, I find them inspirational - and trying to live them, emphasis on trying. 

~ North


Edited by Northman - 02 Sep 2014 at 11:55
   
   If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough.    (Albert Einstein)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Sep 2014 at 12:20
Panther wrote-in part:
 
Quote Christianity went through the exact near same thing that is currently afflicting the Islamic religion.
 
Hate to be pedantic, but we can't have an exact near same thing...
 
Historically, Christianity has been through periods of internal conflict, one period coming immediately to mind is the persecution of the Cathars in France. I say persecution, but I suppose it really depends on ones perspective.
 
But when comparing Christianity and Islam, they are, as practised today in many countries, direct opposites.
 
Islam has remained, in the main, in the medieval period, with horrendous punishments for even the most minor infraction of the doctrines. One may not choose to convert to another religion without facing the ultimate sanction. And, as they say, "There is no God but God, God is great."
 
Christianity has evolved into many different versions, most sharing the same biblical tenets as the Roman Catholic Church. In particular, the Protestant brands have modified services and relaxed procedures so as to try to keep pace with societal change. In saying Protestant brands, perhaps I should have said, non Roman Catholic or Orthodox brands.
 
Although there are moderate Islamic countries, those closer to the ancient Mesopotamian Region seem to cling harder to the fundamental and original teaching of Islam. Islam is a religion, many believe, born of fire and blood, a vengeful, punishing and intolerant religion, while modern day Christianity is generally accepted, imho, as a religion of love and peace and forgiveness.
 
Diametric opposites.
 
So, if I say that God is a belief system, rather than a physical but supernatural being,  I doubt that many would disagree with me. But this does not answer the question, or rather the conundrum, If there Is a God...what?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Captain Vancouver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Sep 2014 at 16:15
God was on the side of German troops in WW1. I guess the Christian God was hedging his/her/its bets though, because it also took the allied side. Twenty million or so dead, but God could wash his/her hands, because the real problem was original sin. If Adam hadn't eaten that apple, God would not have still been feeling petulant, and so still overseeing death and dismemberment on an industrial scale.

It's all nonsense, and all projection. In the more comfortable parts of the world, we can ruminate about a God of love and good order. In parts ravaged by violence, rage, and xenophobia, well, the God there is about hate and getting even. Quite a coincidence huh? My bet is that if the Mid-East ever gets its act together, and enjoys a few years of peace, the God there will morph into a being that likes peace and development.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Northman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Sep 2014 at 18:14
Well said Captain - Bob Dylan said something along that line 50 years back



~ North


Edited by Northman - 02 Sep 2014 at 18:16
   
   If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough.    (Albert Einstein)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Northman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Sep 2014 at 18:28
Toyo - I don't see one religion or denomination much worse than another...  it's the radicals who set the agenda, and you can find them in any religion.
For the time being, yes - we hear a lot about Islam and the radical behavior some of the followers demonstrate - but is that so different from "the love" we Christians practiced in another eras - or different from what we see in ME today by the Israeli.   

The normal moderate followers don't dare to speak up against the radicals ... - and the young ones get inflamed by the hatred in the speeches. They think they finally find an identity and a goal worth living (and sadly dying for)  ...  

~ North

   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Sep 2014 at 03:39
Originally posted by Northman Northman wrote:

Toyo - I don't see one religion or denomination much worse than another...  it's the radicals who set the agenda, and you can find them in any religion.
For the time being, yes - we hear a lot about Islam and the radical behavior some of the followers demonstrate - but is that so different from "the love" we Christians practiced in another eras - or different from what we see in ME today by the Israeli.   

The normal moderate followers don't dare to speak up against the radicals ... - and the young ones get inflamed by the hatred in the speeches. They think they finally find an identity and a goal worth living (and sadly dying for)  ...  

~ North

 
North: Sorry, I can't agree with your comparison of the religions. Islam has always taken the view that unbelievers should be struck down, and the centuries haven't softened that approach-as opposed to Christianity which had the same view in the middle ages, but has developed a more tolerant attitude.
 
In the modern world, there is no armed conflict between the two main pillars of Christianity, the Roman Catholic Church and Protestantism, while in Islam, people are car bombing each other on a daily basis because of doctrinal differences. It's madness!
 
Of course it's the radical fundamentalists who are the root of this evil, but why do they flourish from the outset? Is it from jealousy of the advances that the west has made or is the population simply so brainwashed that it goes along with the Imams?
 
 
AND, if it's ever proven beyond doubt that there is a God, I, like millions of others, will stand humbly corrected.


Edited by toyomotor - 03 Sep 2014 at 06:31
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Panther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Sep 2014 at 07:42
Originally posted by Northman Northman wrote:

Panther old buddy - thank you for trying to answer my outburst. I know how much it means to you, but you only confirm my thoughts on the matter...  and confirm what stated in my first post a while back.

There are an abundance of excuses for God not to intervene - you can dig up a passage from the  bible which can be read as an excuse for everything anyone can bring forward and ask "why is this or that happening". 


I think i had addressed this to Toyomotor, so if i may.... address it to you as well; How do we know he hasn't already been intervening in the world all this time?

Quote
I know Ako could give us some insight of this - but whole gospels are left out for some reason - not because God said so, but the "editors"...  - the human powers ...


I don't quite understand it either.

Originally posted by Northman Northman wrote:


So, the millions of children who never even heard of God, they can suffer, starve and die from hunger and illness without anyone divine reacting - and their souls are lost on top of that.
But if we have heard about God and pray to him, our souls are saved?
 


I can't answer that.

Quote
Divine intervention has been recorded? - where and when?
We are not talking about Moses and the Red Sea are we?


No, i meant throughout the bible. And it further depends on how people choose to interpret it, what truth is gleaned from it. Either as the word of God or from a more scientific approach. Quite a few dismiss everything in the bible out of hand.

Quote
That is my point as mentioned before - always possible to dig up an excuse from the Bible.


My readings from the bible, never said what would happen in the future would be an excuse for us to blame bad things on, but a prophecy of things that are going too happen.


Quote
No - why would I want another "One World Government"
We already have one almighthy, and he isn't doing anything - that's why we have this conversation!   Smile


Well, again... this is predicated on what i believe to be most anyone's supposition that he isn't.

Quote
No, what I was aiming at here is, that 2/3 (if not more) of the inhabitants on this globe is living below what I would considered decent standards (I didn't say poverty or any other normal measurement).
We, on the other hand are living in a capitalistic part of the world where the only goal is to grab as much from those who have less, as possible. Exploiting who and what we can without any thought or conscience for anything but ourselves.
If the readiness to share was a little more popular, things could be different - but it's not - me, me, me is the dominant war-cry here.


And what hasn't been shared? Wealth? Knowledge? Education? Technology? Health practices? The rise and spread of philanthropic causes? The internet? Other countries not of the West are rising, based partly on what has already been shared and also based on the belief of these citizens they have for their country's prosperity and the quality of life that can be theirs if they work hard for it. Some people want it more than others and some of the other people out there scorn what has been offered so far based on pride, ignorance, arrogance and ect...



Quote

I don't disagree, but I was just making a point of The teachings of Jesus vs the old law - again, if you pick and chose from the law you are making a new law yourself. That's why the old law is obsolete - no one can live by it - so we have the new teachings Jesus gave us. If you live by them, you will not steal, you will not murder, you will not ... and so on. 


There are several interpretation of this, but i think this is valid. Jesus had said he didn't come to make the old laws obsolete. But that his coming had fulfilled all that had been said in the old testament.  Are the ten commandments still relevant  now? I believe Jesus thought so then, as well as for now.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Panther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Sep 2014 at 08:11
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Panther wrote-in part:
 
Quote Christianity went through the exact near same thing that is currently afflicting the Islamic religion.
 
Hate to be pedantic, but we can't have an exact near same thing...
 
Historically, Christianity has been through periods of internal conflict, one period coming immediately to mind is the persecution of the Cathars in France. I say persecution, but I suppose it really depends on ones perspective.
 
But when comparing Christianity and Islam, they are, as practised today in many countries, direct opposites.
 


When typing my earlier post, i was thinking of the crusading period. In particular, when the Christians crusaders who upon capturing the city had sacked Jerusalem around 1098-1099, massacring both Muslim and Jewish defenders and civilians alike and looting the city thoroughly. Or when the crusaders sacked Constantinople in 1204 during the fourth crusade. Or the multiple massacres and persecutions of the Jews in Europe that had begun around the beginning of the crusades. Then there was the Spanish Inquisition backed by the church and ect... and ect...

Quote
Islam has remained, in the main, in the medieval period, with horrendous punishments for even the most minor infraction of the doctrines. One may not choose to convert to another religion without facing the ultimate sanction. And, as they say, "There is no God but God, God is great."
 
Christianity has evolved into many different versions, most sharing the same biblical tenets as the Roman Catholic Church. In particular, the Protestant brands have modified services and relaxed procedures so as to try to keep pace with societal change. In saying Protestant brands, perhaps I should have said, non Roman Catholic or Orthodox brands.
 
Although there are moderate Islamic countries, those closer to the ancient Mesopotamian Region seem to cling harder to the fundamental and original teaching of Islam. Islam is a religion, many believe, born of fire and blood, a vengeful, punishing and intolerant religion, while modern day Christianity is generally accepted, imho, as a religion of love and peace and forgiveness.
 
Diametric opposites.
 


I tend to agree. But culturally speaking... it is not a wide spread belief here in the west. I tend to think some people see no difference of intolerance between Christianity or Islam.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Sep 2014 at 09:10
Panther wrote:
Quote I tend to think some people see no difference of intolerance between Christianity or Islam.
Now we're coming to a different aspect of our discussion. I agree with you, regardless of whether it's a Christian or Muslim radical, intolerance is intolerance.
But, do you think that Christian Religious intolerance is widespread?
As a child, I was warned away from mixing with Catholics, notwithstanding the fact that my ancestors some two generations earlier, were Roman Catholic. I don't remember it ever being explained to me why I should be wary of Catholics.
Of course it was stupidity-and still is.
Personally, I've never encountered any real  intolerance until I befriended and Irish Protestant boy at school whose family had migrated to get away from The Troubles. He had been a member of a Loyal Orange Order Marching Band, and of course had some strong views.
I couldn't understand his and his familys views until I was a fair bit older and read all about the genesis of the Irish problem.






Edited by toyomotor - 03 Sep 2014 at 14:15
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Sep 2014 at 13:18
Quote The foundations of Christendom will crumble if faith is not renewed by doctrines more applicable to the 21st Century, as those of the past have been largely discarded.

On the contrary. Christianity survives by tradition as much as relevance, which isn't suprising since the Romans who patronised that religion were also great traditionalists, whose empire suffered arguably because of change. Modern attempts to rework Christianity to a more contemporary philosophy and experience usually fall by the wayside or are the natural habitat of the con merchant.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Sep 2014 at 14:24
Caldrail wrote-in part:
Originally posted by caldrail caldrail wrote:


 Modern attempts to rework Christianity to a more contemporary philosophy and experience usually fall by the wayside or are the natural habitat of the con merchant.
 
And yet, the "Land of the Free" has hosted more new variations on Christianity than any other country.
 
Agreed, some are cons, pure and simple, but many of them are genuine and thrive because people want something other than the traditional church service. One thing that Christianity does provide, is the opportunity to go to church and have an enjoyable, happy experience, and if you aren't happy with the particular branch to which you belong-and I use that term in a general sense, you are always free to go elsewhere.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Panther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Sep 2014 at 05:40
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

But, do you think that Christian Religious intolerance is widespread?


For the US, I don't honestly know. I tend to think it's not, while others argue aggressively... passionately that it is. A difference in personal truth, where ignorance of the other holds sway on both sides, i reckon.

The irony that i always can't help but to note, is that those screaming the loudest about intolerance are the ones who are actually the intolerant ones. Religion doesn't even need to factor into it. All that is needed is pure-raw emotion.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Sep 2014 at 10:12
Originally posted by Panther Panther wrote:

Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

But, do you think that Christian Religious intolerance is widespread?


For the US, I don't honestly know. I tend to think it's not, while others argue aggressively... passionately that it is. A difference in personal truth, where ignorance of the other holds sway on both sides, i reckon.

The irony that i always can't help but to note, is that those screaming the loudest about intolerance are the ones who are actually the intolerant ones. Religion doesn't even need to factor into it. All that is needed is pure-raw emotion.
 
Australia is still coming to grips, in some respects, with the influx of Muslim people and the building of mosques, but, if I concede there is an element of intolerance, it's more directed towards sects, such as The Exclusive Bretheren, which is widely despised.
 
When the Hare Krishna first surfaced in Australia, people were very wary, but now they live on their commune and are basically accepted/ignored.
 
Personally, as I've said before, if belief in a Supreme Being brings people a level of comfort, so be it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Sep 2014 at 02:09
es_bih:
I admit that I have no deep knowledge or understanding of Islam, but what I do know suggests that far too many followers are being led by the nose into acts of attrocity against fellow Muslims over doctrinal differences.
 
Many Muslims just don't seem to get the message-it is possible for Sunni and Shia to live in harmony by accepting that each has a different view on Quranic teaching. How blowing each other up is going to help resolve differences simply defeats me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Sep 2014 at 05:29
Originally posted by es_bih es_bih wrote:

If you think that what's happening there is simple as Shia and Sunni you've already lost in understanding the situation.

 
I suppose I come across as just another anti-Muslim westerner, but I'm not. I have no problem with Muslim people, only the radical fundamentalists who, imho, want to keep their country in the 15th Century and terrorists.
 
I admit, like most westerners, that my views are shaped by news reports, and even giving some leeway for biased reporting, I still believe the majority of what I read and see on TV. I also admit that I have no in depth knowledge of the politics involved, but in a conversation such as this, I haven't brought the politics into the discussion. 
 
If you'd like to tell me more of the situation, I'd be happy to read.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Sep 2014 at 12:35
Quote And so... you have said... nothing? I am sorry, caldrail. I expected more of a response to my post than that. To try to theatrically dress up the same sort of derision that I legitimately derided is a bit... well, pathetic, really.

If you do have an actual point, you are free to make it, but please be open, honest, and clear.


I wasn't being theatrical or derisive, just musing philosophically on the distribution of talent and motivation in human societies, adding a comment concerning the restrictions placed on expression attributed to Christian regimes.. I don't really see how much more open I can be.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zorro15 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Sep 2014 at 10:07
`
 one who has truly believe and accepted the non-existence of a god/s and other
 supernatural beings will find it foolish to call upon it in death.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zorro15 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Sep 2014 at 10:12
Originally posted by Northman Northman wrote:

 
Like the Captain said - you answered your own question, but do that rationale also hold truth when we face death? - or are the Religious/Christian element in our society so utterly soaked into our souls, that we - despite all reason and rationale - would say a prayer on the last day?


 one who has truly believe and accepted the non-existence of a god/s and other
 supernatural beings will find it foolish to call upon it in death.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Northman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Sep 2014 at 10:41
Originally posted by zorro15 zorro15 wrote:

Originally posted by Northman Northman wrote:

 
Like the Captain said - you answered your own question, but do that rationale also hold truth when we face death? - or are the Religious/Christian element in our society so utterly soaked into our souls, that we - despite all reason and rationale - would say a prayer on the last day?


 one who has truly believe and accepted the non-existence of a god/s and other
 supernatural beings will find it foolish to call upon it in death.


It's great if you can stand on your rationales on the last day - although I share your point of view, I'm not sure if my roots in the Christian culture won't weigh more in that situation. 
   
   If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough.    (Albert Einstein)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Sep 2014 at 12:20
Originally posted by zorro15 zorro15 wrote:

`
 one who has truly believe and accepted the non-existence of a god/s and other
 supernatural beings will find it foolish to call upon it in death.
 
I agree, but it happens.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Northman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Sep 2014 at 22:01
If there is a God - where is he?


   
   If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough.    (Albert Einstein)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Captain Vancouver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Sep 2014 at 02:24
Originally posted by Northman Northman wrote:

If there is a God - where is he?



It's interesting to speculate that many of the observable features of our universe, such as some of these vast features we see here, that we take to be natural, cosmological features, may not be.

When a dolphin swims by a ship, or a raccoon, by chance, observes a new year's fireworks display, the possibility of engineering efforts will of course not arise to their particular level consciousness. But the distance between us, and some entity that has evolved for a million (or a billion) years, may be just as great by comparison.

Just idle speculation of course, but the evidence of others may be all around us, but just of a different order of magnitude.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Sep 2014 at 03:18
Originally posted by Northman Northman wrote:

If there is a God - where is he?

 
North, don't you think it a little presumptuous to assign gender to God?
 
To answer your question, in much the same manner that it's been answered for me over the years:
 
Quote
God is all around us everywhere we go
Caring for His children that's all I need to know
From
"God Is All Around Us" Lyrics[edit]
by Twila Paris | from the album Bedtime Prayers: Lullabies & Peaceful Worship
 
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Northman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Sep 2014 at 07:53
Originally posted by Captain Vancouver Captain Vancouver wrote:

Originally posted by Northman Northman wrote:

If there is a God - where is he?
It's interesting to speculate that many of the observable features of our universe, such as some of these vast features we see here, that we take to be natural, cosmological features, may not be.

When a dolphin swims by a ship, or a raccoon, by chance, observes a new year's fireworks display, the possibility of engineering efforts will of course not arise to their particular level consciousness. But the distance between us, and some entity that has evolved for a million (or a billion) years, may be just as great by comparison.

Just idle speculation of course, but the evidence of others may be all around us, but just of a different order of magnitude.


Indeed - and my point in showing that great video is to show that although we think we are so clever, we still discover things that were unthinkable a few years ago. This time in space, next time in the deep sea.
The sum of our knowledge is but a tiny fraction of whatever there is to find out and that is how it will always be. 
 
Originally posted by </span><span style=color: rgb20, 24, 35; font-family: Helvetica, Arial, 'lucida grande', tahoma, verdana, arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 19.3199996948242px;>Lawrence M. Krauss Lawrence M. Krauss wrote:

In 5 billion years, the expansion of the universe will have progressed to the point where all other galaxies will have receded beyond detection. 
Indeed, they will be receding faster than the speed of light, so detection will be impossible. Future civilizations will discover science and all its laws, and never know about other galaxies or the cosmic background radiation. They will inevitably come to the wrong conclusion about the universe......We live in a special time, the only time, where we can observationally verify that we live in a special time.” 

― Lawrence M. Krauss
So, there is another question as well - is our observations and knowledge the truth - or are we lead astray due to limited abilities and subsequently wrong assumptions?
   
   If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough.    (Albert Einstein)
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