| FORUM | ARCHIVE |                    | TOTAL QUIZ RESULT |


  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Intra-race "racial abuse".  Why?
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login


Welcome stranger, click here to read about some of the great benefits of registering for a free account with us and joining us in our global online community.


Intra-race "racial abuse". Why?

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <123>
Author
Reginmund View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 08 May 2005
Location: Norway
Status: Offline
Points: 2659
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan 2010 at 11:59
The greater the population the greater the distance from top to bottom. In a society of a billion you will, regardless of average IQ, find millions of some of the smartest as well as dumbest people in the world.
 
Class divisions that remain adamant for centuries or longer are not necessarily conducive to high intelligence. While it's true that at some point the division was caused by some who triumphed over others, there is no guarantee their descendants won't develop negative traits and with the total absence of meritocracy these bad seeds will not be exposed to competition, meaning they can continue to dominate despite not necessarily being smarter than the lowborn. Over time this might result in the situation you describe in India. This is just my guess though, my knowledge of Indian history and society is kind of a black hole.
Sing, goddess, of Achilles' ruinous anger
Which brought ten thousand pains to the Achaeans,
And cast the souls of many stalwart heroes
To Hades, and their bodies to the dogs
And birds of prey
Back to Top
Sponsored Links


Back to Top
calvo View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain


Joined: 20 May 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 1357
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote calvo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan 2010 at 12:47
My point using the Indian example is that IQ is dependent of environment; by the mere fact that Indian people tend to demonstrate radical different levels of intelligence when they are brought up in India or in the West.

To further emphasize my point, Some of the brightest people that I've known, people who excel in maths, sciences, and in literature, have parents or grandparents who are "apparently" stupid and unable to grasp concepts as basic as decimals or negative numbers because they had never been to school or had been brought up in environments where such training was irrelevant for survival.

Therefore, not all intelligence is inherited.
Back to Top
Zagros View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar
Kaveh ye Ahangar

Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Location: MidX,Engelistan
Status: Offline
Points: 12491
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan 2010 at 13:11
Originally posted by Reginmund Reginmund wrote:

Genes aren't very fashionable these days. They upset what is perhaps one of the most basic moral axioms of our time; that all men are created equal. Thus there is tendency to put undue weight on the importance of social conditioning while the genetic legacy of a group or individual is cautiously ignored. Unfortunately this limits our understanding of the world, as genes are as important if not more important than social conditioning. Genes will however tend to be shared within a social or ethnic group, which in turn reinforces the idea that our success depends entirely on social circumstances, even though the genes are what created those social circumstances in the first place and continue to reinforce them.
 
Good IQ tests are as culturally neutral as possible. You will for example see comparatively backwards East Asian nations (f.ex. Mongolia) outperform certain wealthy and educated European ones on tests created by Europeans or Americans, as the average is slightly higher.

What average is this? Mongolia operates an educational system not dissimilar from the European one. Furthermore, how do you know Mongolia did not offer its most promising students for tests to form these "averages"?


NB  Genes don't create social circumstances, what a ridiculous position.  


Edited by Zagros - 08 Jan 2010 at 13:13
"There was glory in pissing, Corabb decided as he watched the stream curve out and make that familiar but unique sound as it hit the ground." So true.
Back to Top
Reginmund View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 08 May 2005
Location: Norway
Status: Offline
Points: 2659
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan 2010 at 13:16
Oh, not all, certainly. Just like with building physical strength you can achieve a whole lot on your own, but some will gain muscle faster than others despite following the same training regimen. Genetic legacy has a profound effect on health as well. Some people can live unhealthily to an old age, whereas an athlete can die at 50 if he's genetically disposed to a lethal medical condition. It must be acknowledged that our genetic legacy is a powerful force with no respect for our ideas of justice and equality - some people will be elevated by their legacy, others will be crushed.
 
On the other hand it was never my case to disregard social conditioning, I was merely saying it's been emphasized to the point where genetic legacy is ignored. Both sides need to be taken into account, also when it comes to intelligence. What the Mongolian and Indian examples show, as well as your acquintances, is that intelligent people will know how to succeed once the opportunity presents itself, whereas those of a less fortunate genetic legacy will fail in the same society. The Indians have a lower average IQ than the Mongolians, but since the Indians outnumber the Mongolians by a billion obviously the total number of Indians with a high IQ is much larger.
Sing, goddess, of Achilles' ruinous anger
Which brought ten thousand pains to the Achaeans,
And cast the souls of many stalwart heroes
To Hades, and their bodies to the dogs
And birds of prey
Back to Top
Zagros View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar
Kaveh ye Ahangar

Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Location: MidX,Engelistan
Status: Offline
Points: 12491
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan 2010 at 13:44
I don't disagree that genes are a factor, but I think their consideration was greatly exaggerated in the past to the extent where Europeans felt it necessary to categorise races in order of superiority, such categories have since proved themselves to be complete BS and your generalisation is an extension of that BS.  So there is a good reason why racial considerations are 'unfashionable'. 

IMO Genes are a valid consideration in intelligence between individuals who have both been exposed to and conformed with the same learning environment factors, otherwise such comparisons are flawed.

Environmental factors are by far and away the greatest factor on the IQ's intelligence gauge.  This can be proven by looking at longitudinal studies on IQ which show a steady, quantifiable increase - decade to decade - of IQ within the same populations.  Here race is not a factor since those with the lower IQs in the past are the direct ancestors of those with the higher IQ in the present.  

So what has changed? Why the increase in average IQ in the same gene pool over the century? 

Well one thing which has changed for certain is the vast improvement in environmental factors for this gene pool and it is the thing which should be considered first and foremost before such things as race which obviously have a great scope for misuse by racist morons.
"There was glory in pissing, Corabb decided as he watched the stream curve out and make that familiar but unique sound as it hit the ground." So true.
Back to Top
Reginmund View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 08 May 2005
Location: Norway
Status: Offline
Points: 2659
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan 2010 at 14:07
European scientists in the past misunderstood the concept of race, often confusing it with linguistic groups, and thus their categories are not entirely precise. It does not undermine the significance of race, which comes down to definition, but that's a different discussion. What is the case here is how some peoples have a higher average IQ than others, which together with their geographic location and social conditioning has and has had a profound effect on their ability to compete with others. This will also be evidenced if you take large amount of people from different groups and test their performance within the same system. Thus you find f.ex. in the American school system that generally students of East Asian descent outperform Europeans, whereas those of Central African descent score the lowest and constitute the least successful segment of society. Whether or not this somehow gives races a differing worth does not interest me and can remain the premises of those you call racist morons. I don't care about such judgements, I'm merely observing what goes on in the world around me and reporting it, though without twisting the information to fit with the contemporary sense of political correctness or morality.
Sing, goddess, of Achilles' ruinous anger
Which brought ten thousand pains to the Achaeans,
And cast the souls of many stalwart heroes
To Hades, and their bodies to the dogs
And birds of prey
Back to Top
Al Jassas View Drop Down
King
King


Joined: 07 Aug 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 5000
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan 2010 at 14:18
Originally posted by Reginmund Reginmund wrote:

Oh, not all, certainly. Just like with building physical strength you can achieve a whole lot on your own, but some will gain muscle faster than others despite following the same training regimen. Genetic legacy has a profound effect on health as well. Some people can live unhealthily to an old age, whereas an athlete can die at 50 if he's genetically disposed to a lethal medical condition. It must be acknowledged that our genetic legacy is a powerful force with no respect for our ideas of justice and equality - some people will be elevated by their legacy, others will be crushed.
 
On the other hand it was never my case to disregard social conditioning, I was merely saying it's been emphasized to the point where genetic legacy is ignored. Both sides need to be taken into account, also when it comes to intelligence. What the Mongolian and Indian examples show, as well as your acquintances, is that intelligent people will know how to succeed once the opportunity presents itself, whereas those of a less fortunate genetic legacy will fail in the same society. The Indians have a lower average IQ than the Mongolians, but since the Indians outnumber the Mongolians by a billion obviously the total number of Indians with a high IQ is much larger.
 
Hello Regi
 
You claim that genes have a connection with intellegence, well since intelligence is a function of the Brain then surely a Bushman or an aborigenese will have a much different brain than the east Asian or european (or lets say it bluntly, those living in cold areas as the theory of the master race say).
 
As far as I know the brains are the same, the anatomy is the same and the genetics are the same. Unless you provide a scholarly study that shows that there is a fundamental difference in the brain anatomy between races (not a difference in brain activity since they are affected by environmental activity, a guy in a coma may well have a 200+ IQ but his brain doesn't work nor it will after the coma).
 
Al-Jassas
Back to Top
Reginmund View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 08 May 2005
Location: Norway
Status: Offline
Points: 2659
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan 2010 at 14:36

Al Jassas, as stated earlier humans aren't a particularly diverse species and this goes for our brains as well. Had our brains been visibly different then the differences in our cognitive abilities would have been extreme, like the difference between humans and animals. Make no mistake, our brains are different, but not visibly so, and the minor differences in size are not what determines intelligence, rather how we are able to use it. When you compare humans and animals the gap in IQ is enormous and when you compare different human groups the difference seems tiny in comparison, but it's still large enough to have a noticeable effect, particularly when we compete to the utmost of our potential.

Sing, goddess, of Achilles' ruinous anger
Which brought ten thousand pains to the Achaeans,
And cast the souls of many stalwart heroes
To Hades, and their bodies to the dogs
And birds of prey
Back to Top
Zagros View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar
Kaveh ye Ahangar

Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Location: MidX,Engelistan
Status: Offline
Points: 12491
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan 2010 at 14:41
Speaking completely hypothetically, Reginmund, what would you be more likely to safely prejudice an individual's intelligence on? Race or the environmental factors that he has been raised around?


"There was glory in pissing, Corabb decided as he watched the stream curve out and make that familiar but unique sound as it hit the ground." So true.
Back to Top
Al Jassas View Drop Down
King
King


Joined: 07 Aug 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 5000
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan 2010 at 14:49

Well are there any proof on that?

No brain study I know of has shown any difference in brain activity between races. Sexual arousal, logical functions and many other well recognisable and well researched activities are on average identical across races. 
 
Further more as I have said, one might have the genes and the brains but doesn't use them. Several types brain disorders (dimentia is a prime example) are a direct result of little brain stimulising activity (like reading, listening to music etc). This affects IQ by substantially reducing it.
 
But the one thing that has been connected to intelligence and no one disputes it is the environmental conditions. You can put all the supposed genes of intelligence in a person but with high lead concentration it won't be of use. Brain oxygen levels, certain foods with high concentrations of hallocigenics and many other environmental factors affect the Brain (and thus the IQ) far more than any supposed genetic connection. How do we know that? Compare the IQ of industrial cities and the countryside.
Also check this:
 
Al-Jassas
Back to Top
Zagros View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar
Kaveh ye Ahangar

Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Location: MidX,Engelistan
Status: Offline
Points: 12491
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan 2010 at 15:03
Good point, there's absolutely no sound study which correlates intelligence levels with races.  The fact that IQ averages vary between neighbouring countries should be enough to tell you that IQ as a mechanism to draw such conclusions is useless and again would point one to elementary environmental factors.
"There was glory in pissing, Corabb decided as he watched the stream curve out and make that familiar but unique sound as it hit the ground." So true.
Back to Top
Reginmund View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 08 May 2005
Location: Norway
Status: Offline
Points: 2659
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan 2010 at 15:11
Originally posted by Zagros Zagros wrote:

Speaking completely hypothetically, Reginmund, what would you be more likely to safely prejudice an individual's intelligence on? Race or the environmental factors that he has been raised around?
 
That's an interesting scenario. Race is of course more obvious than social background, unless the person's appearance makes the latter obvious, so considering the way our brain forms prejudices then race would most likely come before class. I would of course expect a highly educated upper class Central African to be more intelligent than the local village idiot, but I'm rarely faced with such extremes. In most cases I'm forming prejudices about other Norwegians, which means I have to rely on social background, but since this is such an egalitarian society it's extremely hard to form a verdict without a hint of their personality.
 
That being said, in most cases my prejudices have been confirmed, leading me to adopt the maxim "if there's anything I believe in, it's stereotypes". I know and have known many immigrant families from all over the world who arrived in this country and started from scratch. How they have managed fits only too well with the IQ tests, the popular stereotypes and their peoples' role in history.
Sing, goddess, of Achilles' ruinous anger
Which brought ten thousand pains to the Achaeans,
And cast the souls of many stalwart heroes
To Hades, and their bodies to the dogs
And birds of prey
Back to Top
Reginmund View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 08 May 2005
Location: Norway
Status: Offline
Points: 2659
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan 2010 at 15:21
Al Jassas, sorry but that's ridiculous. The difference in brain activity is far too minute to be traceable on any scanner I've heard of, unless they've developed some fort of intelligence scan. If the differences in brain activity were as great as you require them to be that would mean the difference between intelligent and simple humans would be like between a human and an animal, which is downright comical to think of.
 
And IQ doesn't vary much between countries, it could not unless some insurmountable hindrance, like a desert or a mountain range, had prevented them from intermingling throughout history. Most peoples have a level of IQ similar to their neighbours.
Sing, goddess, of Achilles' ruinous anger
Which brought ten thousand pains to the Achaeans,
And cast the souls of many stalwart heroes
To Hades, and their bodies to the dogs
And birds of prey
Back to Top
Al Jassas View Drop Down
King
King


Joined: 07 Aug 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 5000
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan 2010 at 15:59
Originally posted by Reginmund Reginmund wrote:

Al Jassas, sorry but that's ridiculous. The difference in brain activity is far too minute to be traceable on any scanner I've heard of, unless they've developed some fort of intelligence scan. If the differences in brain activity were as great as you require them to be that would mean the difference between intelligent and simple humans would be like between a human and an animal, which is downright comical to think of.
 
And IQ doesn't vary much between countries, it could not unless some insurmountable hindrance, like a desert or a mountain range, had prevented them from intermingling throughout history. Most peoples have a level of IQ similar to their neighbours.
 
Have you ever heard of MRI with its different types?
 
Al-Jassas
Back to Top
Zagros View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar
Kaveh ye Ahangar

Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Location: MidX,Engelistan
Status: Offline
Points: 12491
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan 2010 at 16:19
That hypothetical situation I presented you with was with the assumption that you knew their social background as well as their race before using either as an indicator of intelligence.  So, you would still estimate likely intelligence by race in that scenario or rather go for social background?

Originally posted by Reginmund Reginmund wrote:

Originally posted by Zagros Zagros wrote:

Speaking completely hypothetically, Reginmund, what would you be more likely to safely prejudice an individual's intelligence on? Race or the environmental factors that he has been raised around?
 
That's an interesting scenario. Race is of course more obvious than social background, unless the person's appearance makes the latter obvious, so considering the way our brain forms prejudices then race would most likely come before class. I would of course expect a highly educated upper class Central African to be more intelligent than the local village idiot, but I'm rarely faced with such extremes. In most cases I'm forming prejudices about other Norwegians, which means I have to rely on social background, but since this is such an egalitarian society it's extremely hard to form a verdict without a hint of their personality.
 
That being said, in most cases my prejudices have been confirmed, leading me to adopt the maxim "if there's anything I believe in, it's stereotypes". I know and have known many immigrant families from all over the world who arrived in this country and started from scratch. How they have managed fits only too well with the IQ tests, the popular stereotypes and their peoples' role in history.

Your prejudices.  Right.  OK>  The fact is that black people are less successful than their peers from other backgrounds, on average.  Correct.  

But what you are saying is that they are so because of their race.  You cannot prove that and there is more evidence to suggest that race is not the issue it is environment.  The race and intelligence correlation is weak and baseless if scrutinised.

This thread is about a real issue within the black community that hinders its long term well being and what in effect you've done either consciously or subconsciously is to have come in posited an ill founded alternative as the most significant variable.  You may not have explicitly intimated as much but looking at the big picture here, that is what it looks like.


Edited by Zagros - 08 Jan 2010 at 17:21
"There was glory in pissing, Corabb decided as he watched the stream curve out and make that familiar but unique sound as it hit the ground." So true.
Back to Top
es_bih View Drop Down
Council Member
Council Member
Avatar

Joined: 20 Dec 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 6381
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote es_bih Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan 2010 at 16:59
Reggie seriously, don't you have anything better to do than pull b.s. out of Mein Kampf for a serious topic?

Back to Top
calvo View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain


Joined: 20 May 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 1357
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote calvo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jan 2010 at 02:22
Reg, you still haven't provided explanations of the following phenomenon.

- how come East Asians scored a lower IQ than Europeans, Southern and Eastern Europeans scored a lower IQ than northern Europeans in the early 20th century; and now the gap has closed? If inteligence were racially-determined; these patterns should persist

- how come Indians in India score a much lower IQ than Europeans; but once they emigrate to the West, they score a higher IQ?

Regarding "racial groups", north Africans also score a considerably lower IQ than Europeans, yet according to genetic studies; north Africans and Europeans are very closely related and the genes are to a great degree intermixed; much more so than Europeans than East Asians.
So how come 2 genetically-close; if not to say intermixed populations display a greater IQ difference than that between 2 genetically more distant populations?

If inteligence was "race-dependent"; then East Asians and South-East Asians should have a similar IQ because of a closer genetic relation; Europeans, North Africans, Middle-Easterners, and south Asians should have a similar IQ because of a greater amount of shared genes; so how come the IQ level from top to bottom is:
East Asian, European, SE Asian, North African, South Asian ?




Edited by calvo - 09 Jan 2010 at 02:23
Back to Top
Reginmund View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 08 May 2005
Location: Norway
Status: Offline
Points: 2659
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2010 at 08:50
Calvo, that would be strange if I had claimed race as the only factor here. I did not, I merely said it's been less emphasized than social background, so that our understanding is only partial. A good IQ test should be as culturally neutral as possible, but of course in most cases education will be an asset. However, without the genetic potential to benefit from an education, or even establish a decent system of education, average IQ will be further weakened. Also high IQ can develop independently, it's not necessary to be closely related to another group of high IQ people.
 
Zagros, the correlation is evident but not absolute. The same goes for the correlation between social background and high IQ. As for my prejudices they form in the order of what is most apparent, which I think is the case with most people. Often you can spot race before social background. And yes, I do feel like I have hijacked this thread but I merely did as everyone else and offered my take on the issue, and as long as people keep writing to me it's only polite to answer.
 
es_bih, I have only read short excerpts of Mein Kampf, but to the best of my knowledge it doesn't deal with this topic.
Sing, goddess, of Achilles' ruinous anger
Which brought ten thousand pains to the Achaeans,
And cast the souls of many stalwart heroes
To Hades, and their bodies to the dogs
And birds of prey
Back to Top
Zagros View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar
Kaveh ye Ahangar

Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Location: MidX,Engelistan
Status: Offline
Points: 12491
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2010 at 12:07
Quote Environmental factors are by far and away the greatest factor on the IQ's intelligence gauge.  This can be proven by looking at longitudinal studies on IQ which show a steady, quantifiable increase - decade to decade - of IQ within the same populations.  Here race is not a factor since those with the lower IQs in the past are the direct ancestors of those with the higher IQ in the present. 


This along with the fact that I have seen very smart and very stupid people from all generic races is enough for me.
"There was glory in pissing, Corabb decided as he watched the stream curve out and make that familiar but unique sound as it hit the ground." So true.
Back to Top
Reginmund View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 08 May 2005
Location: Norway
Status: Offline
Points: 2659
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2010 at 12:10
So have I, but the dumb-smart ratio has varied between each generic race, so when I found the IQ tests and the results corresponded directly with my observations, it was only natural to conclude that they are on to something.
Sing, goddess, of Achilles' ruinous anger
Which brought ten thousand pains to the Achaeans,
And cast the souls of many stalwart heroes
To Hades, and their bodies to the dogs
And birds of prey
Back to Top
pinguin View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar

Joined: 29 Sep 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 15238
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2010 at 12:17
Originally posted by Reginmund Reginmund wrote:

So have I, but the dumb-smart ratio has varied between each generic race, so when I found the IQ tests and the results corresponded directly with my observations, it was only natural to conclude that they are on to something.
 
I wonder. So according to you, which is the superior race? In IQ, of course. Wink
Back to Top
Reginmund View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 08 May 2005
Location: Norway
Status: Offline
Points: 2659
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2010 at 12:19
East Asia, more specifically China, Japan and Korea, tend to score the highest average. Which fits perfectly with my own observations I might add and judging by the stereotypes the observations of most people around the world too.

Edited by Reginmund - 11 Jan 2010 at 12:20
Sing, goddess, of Achilles' ruinous anger
Which brought ten thousand pains to the Achaeans,
And cast the souls of many stalwart heroes
To Hades, and their bodies to the dogs
And birds of prey
Back to Top
Zagros View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar
Kaveh ye Ahangar

Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Location: MidX,Engelistan
Status: Offline
Points: 12491
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2010 at 12:51
I have never been impressed academically by any person from that origin, whether they are foreign students or British nationals of that background.  In addition, I used to deal with Chinese contacts on issues of specification and design, which required a high degree of intellectual aptitude. The amount of times that the same individuals and their colleagues (who only got these jobs because they were deemed to be smart) would mess up on all counts on repeat orders which resulted in the loss of hundreds of thousands of dollars for both my company and theirs was astounding.  I could easily base a personal prejudice on these experiences alone that in actual fact they are the dumbest people on Earth, but I don't because I know better. 

Quote So have I, but the dumb-smart ratio has varied between each generic race, so when I found the IQ tests and the results corresponded directly with my observations, it was only natural to conclude that they are on to something.


As I said I would only consider race as a valid ratio here if the individuals are of the same social background and training because it would otherwise be unsafe.


Edited by Zagros - 11 Jan 2010 at 12:52
"There was glory in pissing, Corabb decided as he watched the stream curve out and make that familiar but unique sound as it hit the ground." So true.
Back to Top
Bernard Woolley View Drop Down
Earl
Earl


Joined: 11 Jun 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 260
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bernard Woolley Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jan 2010 at 22:20

Originally posted by Reginmund Reginmund wrote:

The standard of education in Mongolia is known to me, but without the high IQ of the Mongolians this standard would have been much lower, especially considering their relative poverty.

I can't agree, Reginmund. The reason for Mongolia's strong educational system probably has more to do with the fact that, like Cuba, it was run for a long time by communists. Communist ideology places a heavy emphasis on education (my sister happens to have been married in Cuba, and as part of the ceremony she and her husband were explicitly charged with ensuring that their children are educated).

 

Originally posted by Reginmund Reginmund wrote:

It goes to show how intelligent people are able to make the most of limited resources, whereas a less intelligent people would simply have sunk into the mud while putting the blame on everything except their own ineptitude.

I have never in my life observed any correlation between intelligence and work ethic. There are scores of very clever people in this world who put all of their knowledge to work thinking of new reasons why everything is someone else's fault.

Besides, it's hard to see what benefit would result from breeding a society of universally intelligent people. Smarter people often have a harder time doing what they're told, and don't like performing those many dull tasks that are necessary for any society to function. If any evolutionary pressures exist, it would make sense for them to lead to a balanced range of intelligence within each society, not geographically discrete groups of smart and dumb people.

Here goes my attempt to tie this back to the original topic: Intra-human competition happens primarily at a local level. How a student compares to his or her classmates can make a big difference to that person's prospects, while it is almost certainly irrelevant how he or she compares to students in other countries. Appropriately, people's competitive drive comes out most fiercely among those closest to them. For some people who don't see a way to escape their poverty, that might mean beating down those of their peers who would look better in comparison. This doesn't only happen in ethnic communities, either. Often enough, where women suffer oppression, it is other women who are most aggressive in upholding that oppression.

Back to Top
Zagros View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar
Kaveh ye Ahangar

Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Location: MidX,Engelistan
Status: Offline
Points: 12491
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jan 2010 at 23:11
Right, communism is what I was alluding to with regards to the Mongolian educational system not being too dissimilar from that of Europe.  Cuba is a very good example too.

It occurred to me the other night that the vast majority of evidence on race and intelligence comes from American samples.

If you look at America, the black community has only realised emancipation from the oppression of a racist society in the last 40 years - 40 years...  This society had always labeled them in a disgustingly derogatory manner and denied them basic rights to, amongst many other things, an education.

In the space of 40 years do you really think that the black community has had long enough to develop and mature?  Black culture in America since the emancipation of the 60s has been in various states of symbolic rebellion against the 'white establishment'.  Symptoms of this rebellion are such things as the gangstar rap culture of the 80s and 90s which explicitly condemned the conformity of black youth to the mainstream system and indulged in gratuitous self-victimisation and hatred which precluded a whole generation of blacks from a decent education and instead a  life on the verges of criminality.

In stark contrast, conformity amongst the Far Easterners which you described is a given considering that educational achievement is instilled into the psyche of the culture from the Confucius philosophy on which their civilisations are based.

Given these considerations, are such race comparative IQ scores a little unsafe to draw conclusions from and establish as you have, Reginmund, a racial intelligence hierarchy?


Edited by Zagros - 12 Jan 2010 at 23:20
"There was glory in pissing, Corabb decided as he watched the stream curve out and make that familiar but unique sound as it hit the ground." So true.
Back to Top
Bernard Woolley View Drop Down
Earl
Earl


Joined: 11 Jun 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 260
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bernard Woolley Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan 2010 at 01:47

Originally posted by Zagros Zagros wrote:

It occurred to me the other night that the vast majority of evidence on race and intelligence comes from American samples . . .
. . . In stark contrast, conformity amongst the Far Easterners which you described is a given considering that educational achievement is instilled into the psyche of the culture from the Confucius philosophy on which their civilisations are based.

Given these considerations, are such race comparative IQ scores a little unsafe to draw conclusions from and establish as you have, Reginmund, a racial intelligence hierarchy?

In addition to which, because of the selection criteria used for immigrants to the US and Canada since around WWII, well-educated and/or entrepreneurial people are over-represented among most Asian communities in North America.

Back to Top
pinguin View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar

Joined: 29 Sep 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 15238
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan 2010 at 03:43
Originally posted by Reginmund Reginmund wrote:

East Asia, more specifically China, Japan and Korea, tend to score the highest average. Which fits perfectly with my own observations I might add and judging by the stereotypes the observations of most people around the world too.
 
So, would you say that an IQ of 100, displayed by the average East Asian, is very high? Do you know a genious has an IQ of 250 or more? Confused
 
In any case. Have you study the IQ differences in your own society, rather than jump to the conclusion, leap frogging from continent to continent? Wink
 
Back to Top
pinguin View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar

Joined: 29 Sep 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 15238
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan 2010 at 03:46
Originally posted by Zagros Zagros wrote:

....In stark contrast, conformity amongst the Far Easterners which you described is a given considering that educational achievement is instilled into the psyche of the culture from the Confucius philosophy on which their civilisations are based....
 
But a lot more than Confusious, Lao Tse, the I Ching or Feng Shui, the success of Asia is lays in the ambition to catch and surpass the West. Theirs attitude is simply "if they can, we also can". That's the driving power of the Asian success.
 
 
Back to Top
lirelou View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 26 Mar 2009
Location: Tampa, FL
Status: Offline
Points: 1346
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan 2010 at 04:53
Pinguino, in re: "But a lot more than Confusious, Lao Tse, the I Ching or Feng Shui, the success of Asia is lays in the ambition to catch and surpass the West."

Good point, Pinguino, though I wouldn't necessarily say "surpass the West". In Korea, the largest expense for families after basic living expenses are after-school tutoring for their children. Korean children go to school six days a week. Discipline in those schools far surpasses anything I have seen in the States, except for military schools. Children get out of school sometime around 3:00 pm, but aren't usually seen coming home from school until about 7:00 - 8:00 pm. The time in between is taken up in tutoring and other classes, such as musical instruments and Tae Kwon do. The Korean model seems to be similar for Taiwan and Japan. Contrast this to Vietnam, where many peasant families continue to pull their children out of school at about age 14, so they can help the family earn a living. Though I have also traveled in China, I have not seen their school system in action. I would assume that for those with even a modest income, their model is much like the Koreans. But in the poorer regions I would not be surprised to find peasant children also being pulled out of school early.

I must point out that Confucian educational systems relied upon rote memorization. Yet they succeeded. East Asian nations have some other learning enhancing skills that are culturally imparted. First, their languages are far more difficult, and demand an agile mind. Chinese, Vietnamese, and Korean do not have personal pronouns per-se. Rather, the pronoun or ending used depends upon the speaker and listeners age, (sex - Cambodian), relationship, wealth, education, etc. This requires cultured speakers to be highly versatile in speech. Likewise, the Chinese and Japanese writing systems demand serious memorization to use and read. The Korean and Vietnamese systems, being alphabets, are simpler, but both nations expected learned people to master a certain number of Chinese, Hanju, or Chu Nom characters, even at the High School level. Even with the Korean alphabet, newspapers would use certain Hanju or Chinese characters right up until the last decade. My Korean co-workers explained that because some words in Korean were spelled the same, the meaning depending upon context, confusion was avoided by using the Hanju or Chinese characters, which specified the exact meaning. Chinese based writing systems depend upon dictionaries organized by strokes, and there are 52 (if I recall correctly) major strokes in the system. Memorize that by the time you are 12, and you have one part of your brain highly developed.  

Anyway, good point!
Phong trần mài một lưỡi gươm, Những loài giá áo túi cơm sá gì
Back to Top
Reginmund View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 08 May 2005
Location: Norway
Status: Offline
Points: 2659
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan 2010 at 09:24
Zagros: The reason you aren't impressed with most East Asians is that despite having the highest average the average is still rather low compared with the most intelligent humans. Most people aren't intelligent, anywhere.
 
Bernard Woolley: As you say there is no correlation between work ethic and intelligence, quite the contrary intelligent people are often averse to performing the menial tasks that are required to keep society running. This could be one of the reasons why Central African slaves were favoured over others; a lower average IQ would mean a higher tolerance for work others would find pscyhologically unbearable. Unfortunately a low average also means you have less capability to organize that potential work force in a productive way.
 
Confucianism is a great philosophy for building a strong, centralized state, something the Chinese were able to conceive of before most others and which no doubt still contributes to their high average. This system however could not have been invented or installed just anywhere, you need a people who is generally able to understand the workings of society well enough to maintain a complex structure within it. Even today there are regions that still don't possess the level of organization China's had for millennia, and these regions don't even need to invent the necessary tools themselves.
Sing, goddess, of Achilles' ruinous anger
Which brought ten thousand pains to the Achaeans,
And cast the souls of many stalwart heroes
To Hades, and their bodies to the dogs
And birds of prey
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <123>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 11.10
Copyright ©2001-2017 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.094 seconds.