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Irish Potato Famine 1846-1850

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Dec 2014 at 09:37
Originally posted by Kevinmeath Kevinmeath wrote:

I must apologise and admit fault the great expert on 'Irish History' toyomotor must be correct but before I go to the library to educate myself from your deep well of knowledge when were Catholics allowed to serve in the military? when was Catholic emancipation? when were Catholics allowed to own land?

You say not until after the Irish war of independence and or Civil war ?

because the books on my shelves and even Wiki don't say that? I'm sure they are wrong and you are right.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penal_Laws_(Ireland)


I didn't say that all of the Penal Laws were in force for so long, I said that not all of them were abolished until later.

To find out more about the Irish Penal Laws, please feel free to Google, you'll find some good factual stuff.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kevinmeath Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Dec 2014 at 10:47
I don't need to Google --I just read books old fashioned I know.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Dec 2014 at 21:46
Originally posted by Kevinmeath Kevinmeath wrote:

I don't need to Google --I just read books old fashioned I know.


I don't intend to be drawn into an argument with you over this-read what I wrote, digest it, and I think you'll agree that I'm correct.

Agreed, not ALL Penal Laws were in force after 1790, but some were up until 1920.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kevinmeath Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Dec 2014 at 08:44
I have re-read your posts and I still do not agree with your opinion.
You said


"......most important imposts on the Irish people remained until 1921-22, after the Civil War......".

But that is simply untrue emancipation, ownership of land, service in the military were all removed long before 1920. Infact by the eve of WWI and with Home Rule granted but unimplemented (very important if)Irishmen were treated no differently to anyone else in the UK
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Dec 2014 at 14:20
Originally posted by Kevinmeath Kevinmeath wrote:

I have re-read your posts and I still do not agree with your opinion.
You said


"......most important imposts on the Irish people remained until 1921-22, after the Civil War......".

But that is simply untrue emancipation, ownership of land, service in the military were all removed long before 1920. Infact by the eve of WWI and with Home Rule granted but unimplemented (very important if)Irishmen were treated no differently to anyone else in the UK


So, Englishmen etc were interned without trial?

I think you're pro-British, but you're entitled to your opinion.

I can't force you to be right.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kevinmeath Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Dec 2014 at 22:24
But internment isn't a penal law and was introduced in the wake of armed rebellion during a world war , your moving the goal posts.

Its not a case of being pro or anti-British but studying history and your comment that most (or rather the important ones) of the penal laws were in place until independence is simply wrong.

Edited by Kevinmeath - 27 Dec 2014 at 22:27
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Dec 2014 at 10:07
Originally posted by Kevinmeath Kevinmeath wrote:

But internment isn't a penal law and was introduced in the wake of armed rebellion during a world war , your moving the goal posts.

Its not a case of being pro or anti-British but studying history and your comment that most (or rather the important ones) of the penal laws were in place until independence is simply wrong.


OK!

I agree with you, you're correct. I was referring not to the actual Penal Laws, but the official attitudes which existed in the six counties, which in themselves were as discriminatory as the Penal Laws.

In your post you said that the Irish were treated as equally as the rest of the British, which simply isn't the case, and I mentioned Internment as an example.

Let's just say that, perhaps, the Penal Laws formed the foundation for British attitudes towards the Irish Catholics in the six counties well into the 20th Century.



Edited by toyomotor - 28 Dec 2014 at 10:14
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kevinmeath Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Dec 2014 at 22:31
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Originally posted by Kevinmeath Kevinmeath wrote:

But internment isn't a penal law and was introduced in the wake of armed rebellion during a world war , your moving the goal posts.

Its not a case of being pro or anti-British but studying history and your comment that most (or rather the important ones) of the penal laws were in place until independence is simply wrong.


OK!

I agree with you, you're correct. I was referring not to the actual Penal Laws, but the official attitudes which existed in the six counties, which in themselves were as discriminatory as the Penal Laws.

In your post you said that the Irish were treated as equally as the rest of the British, which simply isn't the case, and I mentioned Internment as an example.

Let's just say that, perhaps, the Penal Laws formed the foundation for British attitudes towards the Irish Catholics in the six counties well into the 20th Century.



Well that's a different argument and you're confusing the six counties post 1920's with the situation in Ireland pre-1920's.

It's an undeniable fact (the degree can be debated)that Irish Protestants (you call them British) discriminated against the Catholic Irish in 'Ulster' post independence (there are Irish Protestants who'd claim the 'South' discriminated against Protestants).

Internment has to be seen in the context of The Defence of the Realm Act so any English/Scottish/Welsh person who actively encouraged or infact did go to the Germans and attempt rebellion would find themselves interned, if they lived that long.

However that is not the situation that existed in Ireland as a whole pre Independence. An Irishman could travel to Britain work etc and face very little discrimination (not none), there was very little discrimination against Irish Catholics -- there was some eg the RIC and overwhelmingly Catholic Police force most ,but not all, senior officers were Protestants -- in Ireland. Even the 'land question' (to the dismay of Republicans) had to solved and Home Rule passed.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Dec 2014 at 10:04
As I wrote earlier-

TIOCFAIDH AR LA
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kevinmeath Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jan 2015 at 08:28
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

As I wrote earlier-

TIOCFAIDH AR LA


Well that really depends on what you mean by 'Our day will come'.

For a start who is 'our' unlike you I view Irish Protestants as Irish not British and a united Ireland will not come until people like you change their viewpoint.

The Irish and British governments have agreed that when the majority of the people in Northern Ireland vote to join the Republic then that will happen.

The Irish government of course prays night and day for this event never to happen.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jan 2015 at 10:18
Originally posted by Kevinmeath Kevinmeath wrote:

Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

As I wrote earlier-

TIOCFAIDH AR LA


Well that really depends on what you mean by 'Our day will come'.

For a start who is 'our' unlike you I view Irish Protestants as Irish not British and a united Ireland will not come until people like you change their viewpoint.

The Irish and British governments have agreed that when the majority of the people in Northern Ireland vote to join the Republic then that will happen.

The Irish government of course prays night and day for this event never to happen.


1. TIOCFAIDH AR LA-an expression of hope by the Irish people.

2. In the Republic, Irish Protestants are treated no differently to the Catholics-as it should be.

3. The vote should not be confined to the six Counties-all Irish people should be allowed to vote. It could well be that the overall majority no longer want unification!

4. If the Dail does not support unification-and I can understand why-the final decision should rest with the people, who will live with the consequences, whatever they may be.

5. Perhaps "people like me" are romantics, dreaming of total freedom after more than a thousand years of foreign occupation-perhaps.

But don't take this all so personally, it's merely food for thought and discussion.

We may never agree, but that's OK, we can always agree to disagree.




Edited by toyomotor - 03 Jan 2015 at 10:29
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Dec 2015 at 20:51
so many opinions! probably choose this topic for study :)
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