| FORUM | ARCHIVE |                    | TOTAL QUIZ RESULT |


  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Is history written by the victors?
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login


Welcome stranger, click here to read about some of the great benefits of registering for a free account with us and joining us in our global online community.


Is history written by the victors?

 Post Reply Post Reply
Author
franciscosan View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master


Joined: 09 Feb 2015
Location: Littleton CO
Status: Offline
Points: 10752
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Is history written by the victors?
    Posted: 15 Jun 2019 at 09:08
We like to say, history is written by the victors but how much of that is true?  
Sometimes it is the vanquished who have time on their hands.  I believe that Churchhill wrote his history after he was kicked out of power(?).  Demosthenes speeches were mainly from a time when he was part of a minority party in Athens.  Thucydides wrote his "Peloponnesian War" while in exile.
Back to Top
Sponsored Links


Back to Top
Vanuatu View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar

Joined: 24 Feb 2015
Location: New England
Status: Offline
Points: 2688
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jun 2019 at 01:16
Bronte sisters, especially Charlotte. By age 30 sisters Emily and Anne are dead and she is an unmarried, toothless, emotional wreck. Then has to let the publisher in on the fact that she is in fact a woman, which plummeted future book sales. 

She did manage to squeeze out Jane Ere before she died age 39.
Historically the book gained importance in the women's fight for the vote and as more women entered university level study of literature. Bronte herself never argued for women's right to vote but the fact that her success and acceptance as an author was changed merely by the revelation of her sex, forced honest thinkers to question the inequality of the sexes, at least as authors. In her own time there weren't any obvious benefits to being and author other than a little money.


Edited by Vanuatu - 16 Jun 2019 at 01:33
Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)
Back to Top
toyomotor View Drop Down
King
King
Avatar

Joined: 15 Feb 2014
Location: Tasmania, AUST.
Status: Offline
Points: 5490
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jun 2019 at 01:08
It certainly is.

While we have published tomes on Historic Victories, particularly in battle, later and closer examination quite often reveals the exaggerations written into history.

Many such incidents can be found over time on the web site History Today.
From where the sun now stands, I will fight no more forever.(Chief Joseph)
Back to Top
es_bih View Drop Down
King
King
Avatar

Joined: 20 Dec 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 6372
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote es_bih Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Aug 2019 at 12:22
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

We like to say, history is written by the victors but how much of that is true?  
Sometimes it is the vanquished who have time on their hands.  I believe that Churchhill wrote his history after he was kicked out of power(?).  Demosthenes speeches were mainly from a time when he was part of a minority party in Athens.  Thucydides wrote his "Peloponnesian War" while in exile.

I think it depends on the era, area, etc.. For example Middle Eastern and Islamic history until very recently suffered from that syndrome. A lot of it was written in the 800-900s by people writing an origin story for the late 600s with little to none surviving written material to use as source material. In a lot of ways this had the adverse affect creating a creation myth taken as fact. For example a lot of the work done now on the time period uses more obscure source material from the outside perspective to craft that early era. 
Back to Top
franciscosan View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master


Joined: 09 Feb 2015
Location: Littleton CO
Status: Offline
Points: 10752
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug 2019 at 14:57
I did not know that about Islamic history, but it makes sense.  From what I understand, early Islam "discouraged" the development of stories about Mohammad's travels.  No equivalents of "Washington slept here."

An Aztec king had all the histories burned, so things started with him.

I can't find the DVD set but I get this the "Great Courses" Mayan and Aztec course.  I don't remember the presenter.


Edited by franciscosan - 10 Aug 2019 at 13:17
Back to Top
caldrail View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 21 Jan 2014
Location: Rushey Platt
Status: Offline
Points: 1368
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug 2019 at 20:46
There's also an odd argument that pages of history were written in the early medieval period to underline Charlemagne, thus our calendar is actually extended by something like three hundred years. Somehow I doubt that's the case, but it's interesting how we accept dating systems so readily. I seem to remember that anomalies in Egyptian history have led to similar speculation, in that the acceopted chronology is in fact a gross distortion of what really happened.
 
Something like this is easily dismissed but how sure are we of historical chronology? But unless anyone can provide substantial evidence the accepted chronology has to remain... erm... accepted.
http://www.unrv.com/forum/blog/31-caldrails-blog/
Back to Top
toyomotor View Drop Down
King
King
Avatar

Joined: 15 Feb 2014
Location: Tasmania, AUST.
Status: Offline
Points: 5490
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Aug 2019 at 14:04
It seems to me that for every account written by the victors, there's a counter claim made by the losers.

The result is that, centuries later, archaeologists reveal a version of something that may or may not have happened, and, lacking evidence to the contrary, that version is accepted.

Remember the old saying "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence." ?


Edited by toyomotor - 08 Aug 2019 at 14:06
From where the sun now stands, I will fight no more forever.(Chief Joseph)
Back to Top
EldagoMakaveli View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard


Joined: 26 Dec 2019
Location: Moscow, Russia
Status: Offline
Points: 11
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote EldagoMakaveli Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Dec 2019 at 13:10
- Dad, why does good always win?
- Because, son, whoever wins is the good.

Losers are also mentioned in history, but usually in terms of winners. But now, history studies not only the winners, but also the defeated too, although the defeated are given less space in it. By the way, the quote belongs to A. Drexler, one of the founders of the German Workers' Party. The very party that turned into - the National Socialist German Workers' Party. 

I understand this statement as follows: "In order to achieve the goal, any means are suitable, any crimes are justified. And after the victory in history, everything will be drawn as the winners wish".

But apparently the ambition of the Nazis was such that they considered only themselves to be the winners, always and everywhere. And only themselves were ascribed the right to write history. But the Second World War proved the opposite.  
Back to Top
Vanuatu View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar

Joined: 24 Feb 2015
Location: New England
Status: Offline
Points: 2688
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Dec 2019 at 01:50
Originally posted by EldagoMakaveli EldagoMakaveli wrote:

- Dad, why does good always win?
- Because, son, whoever wins is the good.

 Thinking about a possible origin of the idea that one presumes their own goodness and therefore the right to memorialize the events of their time. Ancient history that we can understand from direct sources is often about war and combat.

Orestes and Iphegenia bring the cult of Artemis to Italy, Nemi , which catches on in the Wood of Diana cult. There are additional origin stories.
In the Golden Bough we read about the tradition of Priestly Kings. They stood guard at the sacred oak, the embodiment of the goddess Diana. The tradition of rex nemorensis dating from 300 BC and documented by Pausanus was constructed to insure that the solitary Kingly Priest was in top form, he had to be the expected victor. 
Only the victor has a right to exist. Only a slave can challenge the Priestly King.
The victor takes his position as the new Kingly Priest. He now has to face every challenger willingly or be killed by the worshipers. Sometimes he would be killed just because he had been there too long.
Pure blood sport determines the good since the goddess has to be preserved.

“From the still glassy lake that sleeps
Beneath Aricia’s trees
Those trees in whose dim shadow
The ghastly priest doth reign,
The priest who slew the slayer,
And shall himself be slain”

Thomas Babbington Macaulay, The Battle of the Lake Regillus (X)

http://www.theglobaldispatches.com/articles/lake-nemi-the-sacred-grove-of-diana



Edited by Vanuatu - 30 Dec 2019 at 03:39
Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)
Back to Top
franciscosan View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master


Joined: 09 Feb 2015
Location: Littleton CO
Status: Offline
Points: 10752
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Dec 2019 at 05:50
Treason never prospers,
what is the reason?
If treason prospers,
none dare call it treason.

I am not sure that the gods (goddesses) were necessarily 'the good,' more likely they just _were_.
Zeus ruled because he was stronger than all the other gods combined.  Might is might, regardless of whether it made right.
Back to Top
Vanuatu View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar

Joined: 24 Feb 2015
Location: New England
Status: Offline
Points: 2688
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Dec 2019 at 09:44
Being the "Victor" is good,  not to be confused with virtuous.
Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.03
Copyright ©2001-2019 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.141 seconds.