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Is 'The Stolen Generation' a lie?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jan 2011 at 21:56
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

So now you're elitist, are you? What's bad about a truck driver from Ohio or a school teacher from Oklahoma? Do you know any? Have you studied their life styles? Or are you just on your usual pompously self-righteous kick about something you know nothing about.

 

 
No elitist. But it seems that you do not understand that leaving intricate (and for the affected peoples really vital and life determinating) cultural contacts in the hand of ignorant people that happened to imagine themselves that they had some kind of religious revelation (that told them to go out and convert people they do not know much about, and try to destroy cultures they do not know, and do not really care about) is actually quite insane.
 
And I can not believe that you try to downplay the effects of such destructive activities.


Edited by Carcharodon - 10 Jan 2011 at 21:56
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2011 at 01:55
Are you mad, Carch? The above statement almost borders on Nazi-like ideological constructs. Wisdom in most instances has nothing to do with "intricacy" and the fact that you posit the classic rationalization of the pencil-pushing bureaucrat in defense of his policies when confronting opposition as your sine qua non provides a classic definition of what Ortega y Gasset identified as Mass Man! The notion that to take up residence in an Amerindian village (any village for that matter) demands a degree in Anthropology is absurd on its face. To call others ignorant premised on such superficials is the height of cultural ignorance. You have been exposed to one too many seminars serving as fora for agiprop rather than understanding.  Are you going to blame the "degeneration" of the mola on ignorant missionaries? Frankly, as an Academic with field experience I can grasp the tripe typical to the politicized within an educational setting and understand that such garbage is as much a plaint against the society of origin than a laud of the society observed. One thing is certain after long exposure to your diatribes you do not have an inkling as to the actual nature of cultural contact and change.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2011 at 02:03
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Are you mad, Carch? The above statement almost borders on Nazi-like ideological constructs. Wisdom in most instances has nothing to do with "intricacy" and the fact that you posit the classic rationalization of the pencil-pushing bureaucrat in defense of his policies when confronting opposition as your sine qua non provides a classic definition of what Ortega y Gasset identified as Mass Man!
The notion that to take up residence in an Amerindian village (any village for that matter) demands a degree in Anthropology is absurd on its face. To call others ignorant premised on such superficials is the height of cultural ignorance. You have been exposed to one too many seminars serving as fora for agiprop rather than understanding.  Are you going to blame the "degeneration" of the mola on ignorant missionaries? Frankly, as an Academic with field experience I can grasp the tripe typical to the politicized within an educational setting and understand that such garbage is as much a plaint against the society of origin than a laud of the society observed. One thing is certain after long exposure to your diatribes you do not have an inkling as to the actual nature of cultural contact and change.
 

Unfortunately you also seem to have become a victim of missionary rethorics and propaganda. It seems that you do not understand that cultural manipulations can be very dangerous, for those who become the victims of the manipulations, especially when it is conducted by ignorant people many times obsessed by religious fanaticism.



Edited by Carcharodon - 11 Jan 2011 at 02:07
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2011 at 02:05
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

So now you're elitist, are you? What's bad about a truck driver from Ohio or a school teacher from Oklahoma? Do you know any? Have you studied their life styles? Or are you just on your usual pompously self-righteous kick about something you know nothing about.

 

 
No elitist. But it seems that you do not understand that leaving intricate (and for the affected peoples really vital and life determinating) cultural contacts in the hand of ignorant people that happened to imagine themselves that they had some kind of religious revelation (that told them to go out and convert people they do not know much about, and try to destroy cultures they do not know, and do not really care about) is actually quite insane.
In other words you are an elitist. What's worse is that you are a religious elitist and, ikn your own terms, also a missionary.
Quote  
And I can not believe that you try to downplay the effects of such destructive activities.
I don't downplay them. I ask you to substantiate your assertions about them. Which you signally fail to do.
 
I assume that if I said that Swedes were thieves and murderers then you would object and try to 'downplay' my assertion. But there undoubtedly are Swedes who have stolen and Swedes who have murdered - which - according to you - would be enough to justify my assertion.
 
Not of course that I claim it is justified: one counter-instance of a Swede who is neither a thief nor a murderer would be anough to demolish it.
 
Just as one counter-instance of a missionary who is neither a thief nor a liar nor a murderer is enough to demolish yours.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2011 at 02:11
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

So now you're elitist, are you? What's bad about a truck driver from Ohio or a school teacher from Oklahoma? Do you know any? Have you studied their life styles? Or are you just on your usual pompously self-righteous kick about something you know nothing about.

 

 
No elitist. But it seems that you do not understand that leaving intricate (and for the affected peoples really vital and life determinating) cultural contacts in the hand of ignorant people that happened to imagine themselves that they had some kind of religious revelation (that told them to go out and convert people they do not know much about, and try to destroy cultures they do not know, and do not really care about) is actually quite insane.
In other words you are an elitist. What's worse is that you are a religious elitist and, ikn your own terms, also a missionary.
Quote  
And I can not believe that you try to downplay the effects of such destructive activities.
I don't downplay them. I ask you to substantiate your assertions about them. Which you signally fail to do.
 
I assume that if I said that Swedes were thieves and murderers then you would object and try to 'downplay' my assertion. But there undoubtedly are Swedes who have stolen and Swedes who have murdered - which - according to you - would be enough to justify my assertion.
 
Not of course that I claim it is justified: one counter-instance of a Swede who is neither a thief nor a murderer would be anough to demolish it.
 
Just as one counter-instance of a missionary who is neither a thief nor a liar nor a murderer is enough to demolish yours.
 

The issue here is that experience show that too many missionary activities in the Americas, and other places too, have been destructive and can be regarded as etnocide.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2011 at 02:27
That there are 'too many' missionary activities is a meaningless statement.
 
You need to define how many would be OK.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2011 at 02:53
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Unfortunately you also seem to have become a victim of missionary rethorics and propaganda. It seems that you do not understand that cultural manipulations can be very dangerous, for those who become the victims of the manipulations, especially when it is conducted by ignorant people many times obsessed by religious fanaticism.
 
Again no substantive response and just another opportunity for me to enjoy a ROTFLMAO moment. Why not blame a refrigerator as an "instrument" of cultural manipulation? Not that anthropologists are "above" engaging in such antics what with camera in hand and other such items of modernity so as to ingratiate themselves with their future "victims". After all, the principal assumption behind your diatribes is premised upon the ignorance (you would say innocence, but it's much the same thing) of the observed.
The tragedy here has nothing to do with the Amerindian and their own innate intelligence, but your exploitation of them for your own socio-political bugaboos.


Edited by drgonzaga - 11 Jan 2011 at 05:09
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I believe a tv set is worst than a refrigerator... LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2011 at 15:12
What about native missionaries?
 
For example, IIRC, Christanity was spread to the majority of Arrente people by an Arrente person. He had been exposed to Christainty at a mission, thought it was a great idea, and proceed on his own accord to spread the message of "the God in the Sky" (as opposed to the God in the Land that everyone already knew) to the rest of the Arrente people who at that time were mostly uncontacted* by non-Aboriginal peoples.
 
So is this arrente missionary guilty of wiping out his old culture? Noting of course that arrente culture is alive & well 100 years later**.
 
*If anyone can ever really be uncontacted.
**Though of course not an identical culture because no-one's culture is the same over 100 years. Not even the same persons.


Edited by Omar al Hashim - 11 Jan 2011 at 15:15
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2011 at 21:23
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim Omar al Hashim wrote:

What about native missionaries?
 
For example, IIRC, Christanity was spread to the majority of Arrente people by an Arrente person. He had been exposed to Christainty at a mission, thought it was a great idea, and proceed on his own accord to spread the message of "the God in the Sky" (as opposed to the God in the Land that everyone already knew) to the rest of the Arrente people who at that time were mostly uncontacted* by non-Aboriginal peoples.
 
So is this arrente missionary guilty of wiping out his old culture? Noting of course that arrente culture is alive & well 100 years later**.
 
*If anyone can ever really be uncontacted.
**Though of course not an identical culture because no-one's culture is the same over 100 years. Not even the same persons.
 
There can always be variations and exceptions. But the bulk of missionary activity, at least in South America among tribal peoples has come from the invaders. Also in the Pacific mission in most places were, at least originally, instigated by invaders.
And unfortunately to many times the mission has been followed or backed up by the whole power apparatus of colonial society.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2011 at 22:02
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

The tragedy here has nothing to do with the Amerindian and their own innate intelligence, but your exploitation of them for your own socio-political bugaboos.
 
If someone exploits the Amerindian it is the missionaries who destroy their cultures just for the sake of some mythological hocus pocus, and ofcourse also the economic exploiters who want native land for their own economic purposes and national and local authorities that want to exploit Amerindians and Amerindian land both for economic and political purpose.
 
These forces can also work together to make the displacemeant, deculturation and exploitation more effective.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jan 2011 at 03:56
Originally posted by Carcharodon
<DIV>If someone exploits the Amerindian it is the missionaries who destroy their cultures just for the sake of some mythological hocus pocus, ...[/QUOTE Carcharodon
If someone exploits the Amerindian it is the missionaries who destroy their cultures just for the sake of some mythological hocus pocus, ...[/QUOTE wrote:

 
And you want to preserve the Native mythological hocus pocus? What an hypocresy.
 
And you want to preserve the Native mythological hocus pocus? What an hypocresy.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jan 2011 at 07:58
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

There can always be variations and exceptions. But the bulk of missionary activity, at least in South America among tribal peoples has come from the invaders. Also in the Pacific mission in most places were, at least originally, instigated by invaders.

Before Christianity, many Islanders had the habit of eating people.
Which do you prefer, cannabalism or christianity? I know which on the islanders chose.
 
 
(NB. My usage of the word many is the same as the way Carch uses it)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jan 2011 at 10:07
For the modern hobbist, that want to preserve cultures and collect them as others collect stamps and antiquest, it is very hard to understand what really happened at contact.
For the Mexican natives, for instance, the comming of a New Religion had several good points.

(1) If you were a Mexican from the central valley, but not Aztec, it is likely your people had suffer the continue decimation of human sacrifices. It is very likely you didn't love the Aztec gods very much, anyways.

(2) Priests were better than soldiers, and many times the first protected natives from the later.

(3) If you accepted Christianity, your social condition improved.

(4) There were some strange silimarities between Catholicism and the ancient religion. For instance, Christian symbolically eat the blood and body of Christ during the mass. Jesus is the victim of the ritual sacrifice. So, Aztecs didn't lost human sacrifices at all, but just changed the ritual.

(5) Teologically, Jesus died for the well being of the rest of humans. The ancient victims of sacrifice also died for the rest, in order to feed the gods and fertilize Mom Earth.

(6) The priests, that weren't dumb, not only used the ancient gods as an analogy to the New Religion. They also increased the effect by putting the churches on top of the ancient sacred places.

(7) As a result, there wasn't just a replacement of religions, but a twist in the ancient believes.

(8) Religion helped to preserve the ancient languages. They also preserved it through the Bibles they print in native languages. In fact, priests tough writing to natives, and they used it to preserve theirs knowledge. Without them, most of the knowledge we have about ancient cultures had perished.

(9) Priests were the first people that considered Natives of the Americas as human beings. Without them, naive tribal-protecting humanists of today wouldn't have an ideology

Who ignores these facts, should study them.






Edited by pinguin - 12 Jan 2011 at 10:09
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jan 2011 at 23:33
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim Omar al Hashim wrote:

Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

There can always be variations and exceptions. But the bulk of missionary activity, at least in South America among tribal peoples has come from the invaders. Also in the Pacific mission in most places were, at least originally, instigated by invaders.

Before Christianity, many Islanders had the habit of eating people.
Which do you prefer, cannabalism or christianity? I know which on the islanders chose.
 
 
(NB. My usage of the word many is the same as the way Carch uses it)
 
Well, Christianity have also have its fill of violence (religious wars, crusades, burning of witches, religious persecutions of worst kind, persecutions of sexual minorities and innumerable other gruesome acts). One do not have to be overrun and subject to ethnocide by Christians to stop the habit of cannibalism. There are other ways as inner development and mutual corporation and exchange with other cultures.
To be incorporated in the Western Christian world can often increase the risk for violence and destruction.


Edited by Carcharodon - 12 Jan 2011 at 23:47
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan 2011 at 01:37
I really do wonder how much claptrap this thread can hold before it is moved to the Tavern!?!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan 2011 at 07:54
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:


Well, Christianity have also have its fill of violence (religious wars, crusades, burning of witches, religious persecutions of worst kind, persecutions of sexual minorities and innumerable other gruesome acts).


That would be such an easy hypothesis to accept if humanity did not act so inhuman.

Quote
One do not have to be overrun and subject to ethnocide by Christians to stop the habit of cannibalism. There are other ways as inner development and mutual corporation and exchange with other cultures.


Well, let' see. Christianity got there before other religions, that is before the idea of humanism sprang up, and the islanders apparently did not give a flip for much inner reflection prior, nor give up their taste for human flesh quite so easily until some intervention form an outside power made them. Let's face it, without some type of intervention, their idea of mutual cooperation and exchange would have have probably evolved with the trade of human carcasses as meat to be consumed and the exchange of ideas in how best to fricassee it for better flavor. No offense intended towards any islanders or you Carch, but your gripe against any progress of any civilization is absurd.

Quote
To be incorporated in the Western Christian world can often increase the risk for violence and destruction.


Ah poo... Being incorporated into the Christian world has nothing to do with it. It could have just as easily have been either Islam, Confucianism, Hinduism, or secular humanism that you seem to be arguing... that would have eventually forced them into giving up their old ways and by introducing them into a much larger world full of some very cruel and especially violent people.

No matter how well intentioned your views are Carch, i believe they would not have been the cure to a disease, that i think, you have grossly misdiagnosed?!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan 2011 at 11:54
Certainly, with all its faults, Christianism has contributed to the pacification of man. Or rather than Christianism, I should say that the word of Jesus has produced that effect, sometimes even against organized religion.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan 2011 at 20:22

Originally posted by Carcharodon


Well, Christianity have also have its fill of violence (religious wars, crusades, burning of witches, religious persecutions of worst kind, persecutions of sexual minorities and innumerable other gruesome acts).

Originally posted by Panther Panther wrote:

That would be such an easy hypothesis to accept if humanity did not act so inhuman.

Well, inhumanity is inhuman, and also when parts of it is supported by expansionalist religions and ideologies then things get even more ugly.


One do not have to be overrun and subject to ethnocide by Christians to stop the habit of cannibalism. There are other ways as inner development and mutual corporation and exchange with other cultures.

Originally posted by Panther Panther wrote:

Well, let' see. Christianity got there before other religions, that is before the idea of humanism sprang up, and the islanders apparently did not give a flip for much inner reflection prior, nor give up their taste for human flesh quite so easily until some intervention form an outside power made them.

Le tus not forget that Christianity itself not always foster humanism, but also all sorts of brutal behaviour. Perhaps the Christians (and the muslims too)  ought to be civilised by members of some peaceful religion, as some of the religions among those indigenous peoples who are regarded as some of the most peaceful on earth. Maybe they can stop wars and fanatism.

Originally posted by Panther Panther wrote:

Let's face it, without some type of intervention, their idea of mutual cooperation and exchange would have have probably evolved with the trade of human carcasses as meat to be consumed and the exchange of ideas in how best to fricassee it for better flavor. No offense intended towards any islanders or you Carch, but your gripe against any progress of any civilization is absurd.

Cultural contacts on equal basis (not invasion or economic/ideological/military blackmail) is a better way for people to interact. It leads to a situation where both groups can learn from each other. But unfortunately missionaries and proponents for different sorts of colonialism think that they are the only ones that have something to teach, without having to learn anything from people they many times consider as being savages.

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan 2011 at 20:32
Fortunately enough there are cases when Indigenous peoples managed to defend their cultural integrity. One example is from Colombia.  After a century of Christian mission among the Arhuaco people in Colombias Sierra Nevada de Santa Marta, the Arhuacos managed to expel the missionaries that had plagued them for a century. The missionaries had built a big station close to the largest of the Arhuaco villages. They had monoplised the school  activities in the area and taught the Amerindian children a lot of Jesus propaganda and about the western culture and its alleged superiority. Also they had discouraged the use of the Arhuaco language and discouraged all traditional activiteis, beliefs and ceremonies.
 
With the missionaries gone the Arhuacos themselves took over the school system and started to teach an adapted curriculum where the children learned both about their own culture and about the outer world. The project of culturally adapted education has got support from among others Swedish human rights organisations.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan 2011 at 21:48
Sure. I bet 80% of the Arhuacos are Catholics, anyways.

You never learn, Carcha. You can't imposse your burgoise Swedish fashions in Latin America. Forget it.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan 2011 at 21:51
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Sure. I bet 80% of the Arhuacos are Catholics, anyways.

You never learn, Carcha. You can't imposse your burgoise Swedish fashions in Latin America. Forget it.
 
Not anything to do with burgoise fashions. Just a matter of bringing into attention the plight of indigenous peoples.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan 2011 at 21:57
You do it the wrong way, because you focus only in the case of the few thousand natives of the Amazon, and you forget the 500 years of history of Latin America. You forget because you never learned it.

If you are going to criticize something, study first. If you are so interested in the topic, study the history of Latin America, from all points of view. You should learn something.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan 2011 at 22:01
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

You do it the wrong way, because you focus only in the case of the few thousand natives of the Amazon, and you forget the 500 years of history of Latin America. You forget because you never learned it.

If you are going to criticize something, study first. If you are so interested in the topic, study the history of Latin America, from all points of view. You should learn something.


 
Well, I have actually studied the subject. And also I have contact with many people that in different ways are knowledgeable in the subject, from anthropologists, historians and activists to members of the indigenous peoples themselves. Especially the latter are ofcourse the real experts on the subject.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan 2011 at 22:08
No. You haven't. Otherwise, your claims wouldn't focus in the Xingu only.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan 2011 at 22:13
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

No. You haven't. Otherwise, your claims wouldn't focus in the Xingu only.
 
I do not focus on the Xingu only. For example in another thread I adressed the 32 threatened indigenous peoples of Colombia, they do not live in the Xingu.


Edited by Carcharodon - 13 Jan 2011 at 22:19
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan 2011 at 22:19
Don't be silly. You only speak about contemporary Latin America and the abuses on the last tribes that live in the Amazons. No matter that is a valid cause, you extrapolate that limited knowledge to a region that has 600 million people and more than 5 centuries of modern history.
You don't even have an idea about the Amerindian roots of Latin American culture, or the cultural importance of the religion in the region.
You ignore all that, but you feel qualified to say your oppinions and conclusions. In short, you are a clown.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan 2011 at 22:21
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Don't be silly. You only speak about contemporary Latin America and the abuses on the last tribes that live in the Amazons. No matter that is a valid cause, you extrapolate that limited knowledge to a region that has 600 million people and more than 5 centuries of modern history.
You don't even have an idea about the Amerindian roots of Latin American culture, or the cultural importance of the religion in the region.
You ignore all that, but you feel qualified to say your oppinions and conclusions. In short, you are a clown.
 
Well I adress some issues that many others seem to be rather disinterested in.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan 2011 at 22:25
I am interested in the topic, of course. What I am not interested is in the lies and generalizations you make, because of your ignorance in the topic of Latin America.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan 2011 at 22:29
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

I am interested in the topic, of course. What I am not interested is in the lies and generalizations you make, because of your ignorance in the topic of Latin America.

 
Well, then you perhaps think that indigenous leaders, and people working in organisations like IWGIA or Survival, or also Amnesty and others are also liers? All the reports and information they spread are perhaps also lies in your view of the world?
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