| FORUM | ARCHIVE |                    | TOTAL QUIZ RESULT |


  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Is 'The Stolen Generation' a lie?
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login


Welcome stranger, click here to read about some of the great benefits of registering for a free account with us and joining us in our global online community.


Is 'The Stolen Generation' a lie?

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 910111213>
Author
pinguin View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar

Joined: 29 Sep 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 15238
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan 2011 at 22:44
No. That's not why I think. I agree in the deffense in human rights.
I think you are the ignorant.
Back to Top
Sponsored Links


Back to Top
Carcharodon View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar


Joined: 04 May 2007
Location: Northern Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 4959
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan 2011 at 22:50
Do you only complain or is your post meant to contribute anything to this thread?
Back to Top
pinguin View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar

Joined: 29 Sep 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 15238
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan 2011 at 22:53
I am still waiting for you to recognize your ignorance in Latin America. I also want an apologize to Father Las Casas, the Jesuits of the Missions, Father Hurtado and the thousand of priest that has fought to defend the Indians and the poors.
Back to Top
Carcharodon View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar


Joined: 04 May 2007
Location: Northern Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 4959
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan 2011 at 22:57
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

I am still waiting for you to recognize your ignorance in Latin America. I also want an apologize to Father Las Casas, the Jesuits of the Missions, Father Hurtado and the thousand of priest that has fought to defend the Indians and the poors.
 
Better you try to grasp the fact that there are Amerindians still today getting destroyed in South america. And also better you try to grasp the enourmous negative impact the Christian fanatics have had both on Amerindians and other Indigenous populations in several places in the world.


Edited by Carcharodon - 13 Jan 2011 at 22:58
Back to Top
pinguin View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar

Joined: 29 Sep 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 15238
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan 2011 at 23:05
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

 
Better you try to grasp the fact that there are Amerindians still today getting destroyed in South america.


I know that. I am against it.

Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:


And also better you try to grasp the enourmous negative impact the Christian fanatics have had both on Amerindians and other Indigenous populations in several places in the world.


That's your own bigotry. In fact, you are yourself a fanatic.
Back to Top
Carcharodon View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar


Joined: 04 May 2007
Location: Northern Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 4959
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan 2011 at 23:09
Well, there really is a lot of documentation about the negative impact of the mission.
Back to Top
pinguin View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar

Joined: 29 Sep 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 15238
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan 2011 at 23:16
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Well, there really is a lot of documentation about the negative impact of the mission.


Do you realize that without the missions the mortality and slavery of natives would have been greater?

You are biassed and one sided. That's what I hate about your oppinions.
Back to Top
Carcharodon View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar


Joined: 04 May 2007
Location: Northern Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 4959
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan 2011 at 23:20
Well, there are also cases where the mortality and slavery of natives would have been lesser without missionaries.
Back to Top
pinguin View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar

Joined: 29 Sep 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 15238
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan 2011 at 23:31
There are many cases, but as usual, you jump to conclusions based in particular cases, in exceptions.
That's not a rational approach. Otherwise, you must blame all mankind is made of criminals and all men are pedophiles!
You can't prove anything just picking criminal cases. You must see the whole picture, but you ignore that!
Back to Top
Carcharodon View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar


Joined: 04 May 2007
Location: Northern Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 4959
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan 2011 at 23:49
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

There are many cases, but as usual, you jump to conclusions based in particular cases, in exceptions.
 
It is you who base your assumptions in exceptions. The idea of mission is in itself an idea of intolerance and ethnocide. Some benevolent exceptions do not change the overall picture of the mission as an instrument of colonialism and ethnocide (and sometimes pure genocide).


Edited by Carcharodon - 14 Jan 2011 at 00:12
Back to Top
pinguin View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar

Joined: 29 Sep 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 15238
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 2011 at 00:28
You are the anti-Catholic fanatic, that use the Indians to bash a religion.
However, for good or evil, Catholicism is part of the basis of this region, and deserves respect and a better historical analysis than yours.
Back to Top
Carcharodon View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar


Joined: 04 May 2007
Location: Northern Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 4959
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 2011 at 00:46
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

You are the anti-Catholic fanatic, that use the Indians to bash a religion.
However, for good or evil, Catholicism is part of the basis of this region, and deserves respect and a better historical analysis than yours.
 
Im not specifically against Catholics. Protestant mission is also based on the same ideology of intolerance and ethnocentrism.
Back to Top
pinguin View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar

Joined: 29 Sep 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 15238
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 2011 at 00:54
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Im not specifically against Catholics. Protestant mission is also based on the same ideology of intolerance and ethnocentrism.


Do you know who was Father Las Casas? Do you know about the traditions of the Guarayo people?

You have no idea. You are only an ignorant and biassed observed of a reality you don't grasp.
Back to Top
Carcharodon View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar


Joined: 04 May 2007
Location: Northern Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 4959
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 2011 at 00:56
Personal insults does not make you appear more clever or knowledgeable.
 
And it does ofcourse not change the facts that the idea of Christian mission is based on the  ideology of intolerance, ethnocentrism and religiocentrism.


Edited by Carcharodon - 14 Jan 2011 at 00:58
Back to Top
pinguin View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar

Joined: 29 Sep 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 15238
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 2011 at 01:14
It is not a personal insult. You are an ignorant in the regional history.

No matter that, you have the arrogancy to judge a region you don't know.
Back to Top
Carcharodon View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar


Joined: 04 May 2007
Location: Northern Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 4959
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 2011 at 01:16
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

It is not a personal insult. You are an ignorant in the regional history.

No matter that, you have the arrogancy to judge a region you don't know.
 
I just point out some facts that speak for themselves.


Edited by Carcharodon - 14 Jan 2011 at 01:18
Back to Top
pinguin View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar

Joined: 29 Sep 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 15238
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 2011 at 01:33
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

 
I just point out some facts that speak for themselves.


Now you lie.
I don't complain for the facts but for your absurd conclusions.

The fact is there are lot of injustices in Latin America, and Indigenous people has a share of it as well.
What is wrong is assigning the guilt to religion or to an "evil" western culture.
More often than not, power and money are the origins of all evils, rather than any other cause.


Edited by pinguin - 14 Jan 2011 at 01:34
Back to Top
Carcharodon View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar


Joined: 04 May 2007
Location: Northern Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 4959
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 2011 at 02:01
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:


What is wrong is assigning the guilt to religion or to an "evil" western culture.

 
Well, it was not the Amerindian who colonized Europe and its native peoples, it was the other way around, if you remember. So it was Christian, western people who came to the Americas and destroyed a lot of native peoples and their cultures and environment.
 
And they had an intolerant ideology, attitude and religion to back up their conquest.


Edited by Carcharodon - 14 Jan 2011 at 02:06
Back to Top
pinguin View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar

Joined: 29 Sep 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 15238
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 2011 at 03:26
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

 
Well, it was not the Amerindian who colonized Europe and its native peoples, it was the other way around, if you remember. So it was Christian, western people who came to the Americas and destroyed a lot of native peoples and their cultures and environment.
 
And they had an intolerant ideology, attitude and religion to back up their conquest.


And what do you want? To send all the 600 million Mestizos back to Europe?  Confused Do you want to turn the history 500 years back?

Are you silly?


Edited by pinguin - 14 Jan 2011 at 03:40
Back to Top
gcle2003 View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar
PM Honorary Member

Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Location: Luxembourg
Status: Offline
Points: 13238
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 2011 at 05:35
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Personal insults does not make you appear more clever or knowledgeable.
 
And it does ofcourse not change the facts that the idea of Christian mission is based on the  ideology of intolerance, ethnocentrism and religiocentrism.
 
It doesn't change it because it's not a fact to start with. Other than Christian mission being 'religiocentric' (ridiculous term) which goes without saying, just as you being idelogocentric is obvious.
 
(If you can coin them so can I).
 
Incidentally, why haven't you contributed to the thread on how religion and Christianity has always oppressed the masses? You're keen enough on the subject.
Citizen of Ankh-Morpork.

Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.

Back to Top
lirelou View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 26 Mar 2009
Location: Tampa, FL
Status: Offline
Points: 1346
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 2011 at 05:52
More evidence that those rotten Westerners, the Americans in this case, are out to completely erase indigenous culture>

http://chronicle.com/article/Cherokee-for-Beginners-the/125881/?sid=at&utm_source=at&utm_medium=en
Phong trần mài một lưỡi gươm, Những loài giá áo túi cơm sá gì
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest Group
Guest Group
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 2011 at 08:55
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:



Well, inhumanity is inhuman, and also when parts of it is supported by expansionalist religions and ideologies then things get even more ugly.


Carch, i am of the belief that you have some pretty darn well thick blinders on!

Quote

Le tus not forget that Christianity itself not always foster humanism, but also all sorts of brutal behaviour. Perhaps the Christians (and the muslims too)  ought to be civilised by members of some peaceful religion, as some of the religions among those indigenous peoples who are regarded as some of the most peaceful on earth. Maybe they can stop wars and fanatism.

No, i am afraid they cannot stop wars and fanaticism, they are also the victims of it like all the rest of us. 

Quote

Cultural contacts on equal basis (not invasion or economic/ideological/military blackmail) is a better way for people to interact. It leads to a situation where both groups can learn from each other. But unfortunately missionaries and proponents for different sorts of colonialism think that they are the only ones that have something to teach, without having to learn anything from people they many times consider as being savages.

You know what you are trying to do. You are taking perfectly normal human beings and are trying to turn them and their history into something they never were in the first place, angelic beings residing in Eden! It is extremely dishonest and condescending too many a warrior tribes that went down fighting over the centuries, most especially in the pre-Columbian era!



Edited by Panther - 14 Jan 2011 at 08:56
Back to Top
pinguin View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar

Joined: 29 Sep 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 15238
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 2011 at 11:36
Actually, Indians don't agree with Carcha.

(1) Indigenous peoples want education, which means getting to the university, get degrees, etc, so they can defend theirs rights. In the process they are changing.

(2) Indigenous people want to preserve theirs lands, which is a legitimate right, but for that they need to buy guns, hire lawyers, but cameras, etc., all of which enforce the integration to the rest of the country.

(3) Indigenous people what to have more opportunities, which usually means moving to the cities, and also learning the lingua franca.

In short, Indigenous people is not different from anybody else. If they are constrained to theirs reserves people fall in depresion and alcoholism. They must be encouraged to take the challenges of succeed in this new society.

Yes, Indigenous peoples can succeed. Take the example of Mauricio Botelho, former president of Embraer









Edited by pinguin - 14 Jan 2011 at 11:37
Back to Top
Carcharodon View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar


Joined: 04 May 2007
Location: Northern Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 4959
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 2011 at 19:55

Originally posted by Panther Panther wrote:

You know what you are trying to do. You are taking perfectly normal human beings and are trying to turn them and their history into something they never were in the first place, angelic beings residing in Eden! It is extremely dishonest and condescending too many a warrior tribes that went down fighting over the centuries, most especially in the pre-Columbian era!

 
Well, if there were some conflicts also among indigenous peoples its not an excuse for the terror that the Europeans (and their descendants) let loose on them.
Back to Top
Carcharodon View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar


Joined: 04 May 2007
Location: Northern Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 4959
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 2011 at 19:57

Originally posted by Carcharodon

 

Well, it was not the Amerindian who colonized Europe and its native peoples, it was the other way around, if you remember. So it was Christian, western people who came to the Americas and destroyed a lot of native peoples and their cultures and environment.

 

And they had an intolerant ideology, attitude and religion to back up their conquest.


Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

And what do you want? To send all the 600 million Mestizos back to Europe?  Do you want to turn the history 500 years back?

Are you silly?

 

What Amerindians want is to be able to keep and preserve their lands and to have their cultures and their autonomy respected.

 

Originally posted by Carcharodon

Personal insults does not make you appear more clever or knowledgeable.

 

And it does ofcourse not change the facts that the idea of Christian mission is based on the  ideology of intolerance, ethnocentrism and religiocentrism.

 

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

It doesn't change it because it's not a fact to start with. Other than Christian mission being 'religiocentric' (ridiculous term) which goes without saying, just as you being idelogocentric is obvious.

 

The mission is indeed an extremely intolerant and ethnocentric undertaking, aimed at destroying other peoples cultural integrity and their own religio spiritual and ideological systems.

  

Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Actually, Indians don't agree with Carcha.

(1) Indigenous peoples want education, which means getting to the university, get degrees, etc, so they can defend theirs rights. In the process they are changing.

(2) Indigenous people want to preserve theirs lands, which is a legitimate right, but for that they need to buy guns, hire lawyers, but cameras, etc., all of which enforce the integration to the rest of the country.

(3) Indigenous people what to have more opportunities, which usually means moving to the cities, and also learning the lingua franca.

In short, Indigenous people is not different from anybody else. If they are constrained to theirs reserves people fall in depresion and alcoholism. They must be encouraged to take the challenges of succeed in this new society.

 

Noone has actually denied these things. If you had paid attention I also have said that Amerindians want education (based on their own premises and not Christian, missionary propaganda).

And ofcourse they want to preserve and strenghten their land rights, That is also what I said all the time.

I am aware of that Amerindians move to the cities, and some also moves overseas to get away from persecution by the majority societies. But those who actually want to stay shall not be displaced or have their lands destroyed or taken away from them, which is what happens in several places in South America.

One of the most important issues for the Indigenous organisations is actually land rights, that they will be able to preserve their land and their possibilities to sustain themselves.

But respect for their cultural integrity is also important for them.

 

 

Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Yes, Indigenous peoples can succeed. Take the example of Mauricio Botelho, former president of Embraer

 

Yes, I am aware of that Indigenous peoples can succeed in the majority society too. In fact I made some contributions in the thread about that subject, if you remember.

Back to Top
pinguin View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar

Joined: 29 Sep 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 15238
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 2011 at 22:50
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

 

What Amerindians want is to be able to keep and preserve their lands and to have their cultures and their autonomy respected.


That's what you want for Amerindians.
Back to Top
pinguin View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar

Joined: 29 Sep 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 15238
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 2011 at 22:52
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:


 

Noone has actually denied these things. If you had paid attention I also have said that Amerindians want education (based on their own premises and not Christian, missionary propaganda).

And ofcourse they want to preserve and strenghten their land rights, That is also what I said all the time.

I am aware of that Amerindians move to the cities, and some also moves overseas to get away from persecution by the majority societies. But those who actually want to stay shall not be displaced or have their lands destroyed or taken away from them, which is what happens in several places in South America.

One of the most important issues for the Indigenous organisations is actually land rights, that they will be able to preserve their land and their possibilities to sustain themselves.

But respect for their cultural integrity is also important for them.


But that's contradictory.
For Indians to preserve theirs land they will need to change theirs culture and traditional way of living. Actually, most Amerindians had done exactly that already, and the rest will follow.
Back to Top
Carcharodon View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar


Joined: 04 May 2007
Location: Northern Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 4959
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 2011 at 22:58
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:


 

Noone has actually denied these things. If you had paid attention I also have said that Amerindians want education (based on their own premises and not Christian, missionary propaganda).

And ofcourse they want to preserve and strenghten their land rights, That is also what I said all the time.

I am aware of that Amerindians move to the cities, and some also moves overseas to get away from persecution by the majority societies. But those who actually want to stay shall not be displaced or have their lands destroyed or taken away from them, which is what happens in several places in South America.

One of the most important issues for the Indigenous organisations is actually land rights, that they will be able to preserve their land and their possibilities to sustain themselves.

But respect for their cultural integrity is also important for them.


But that's contradictory.
For Indians to preserve theirs land they will need to change theirs culture and traditional way of living. Actually, most Amerindians had done exactly that already, and the rest will follow.
 
Actually, all cultures actually change (also in precolumbian times Amerindian cultures changed). But it is not said that Amerindian cultures must changet o become some kind of copy of the western culture. They can actually change and develop in their own ways and out of their own premises.


Edited by Carcharodon - 14 Jan 2011 at 22:58
Back to Top
drgonzaga View Drop Down
King
King
Avatar
Plus Ultra

Joined: 02 Oct 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 6262
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 2011 at 23:39
May I ask how did we get from Brisbane to Belem? Was it courtesy of SAS in the 1950s?
 
Honi soit qui mal y pense
Back to Top
pinguin View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar

Joined: 29 Sep 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 15238
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jan 2011 at 04:52
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

...
Actually, all cultures actually change (also in precolumbian times Amerindian cultures changed). But it is not said that Amerindian cultures must changet o become some kind of copy of the western culture. They can actually change and develop in their own ways and out of their own premises.


You are still thinking natives are isolated from the countries they live in. That's naive.
Most Amerindians have changes theirs culture already. Yes, they have rights to theirs lands, but don't expect they live in the neolythic, please.
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 910111213>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.01
Copyright ©2001-2018 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.191 seconds.