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Is 'The Stolen Generation' a lie?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jan 2011 at 19:06
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:


You are still thinking natives are isolated from the countries they live in.
 
Some actually are quite isolated, but most are not. But to have a certain degree of independence and self sustainment you do not have to be isolated. To cooperate on equal basis with others do not require isolation.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jan 2011 at 21:40
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:


You are still thinking natives are isolated from the countries they live in.
 
Some actually are quite isolated, but most are not. But to have a certain degree of independence and self sustainment you do not have to be isolated. To cooperate on equal basis with others do not require isolation.


Indeed, you are right. My only point is that is not your business. Better worried about the Sami and stay in Sweeden. You are a standard ONG agitator.... Stay in Europe.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jan 2011 at 21:50
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:


You are still thinking natives are isolated from the countries they live in.
 
Some actually are quite isolated, but most are not. But to have a certain degree of independence and self sustainment you do not have to be isolated. To cooperate on equal basis with others do not require isolation.


Indeed, you are right. My only point is that is not your business. Better worried about the Sami and stay in Sweeden. You are a standard ONG agitator.... Stay in Europe.
 
Well, if one actually is asked by Native Americans to spread information of their plight or to assist them in different ways, it becomes ones matter.
 
Like in this example of an appeal (the full text you can read in the Xingu thread) but also in private correspondence:
 
Quote On behalf of the Juruna Indigenous people of the Xingu River Basin, I am writing to ask for your support to help stop the Belo Monte Dam. At any moment, the Brazilian government could break ground on the Belo Monte Dam, causing irreparable impacts for our communities, the environment and the global climate. We are at a critical time in the campaign to stop the Belo Monte Dam and it is essential that the international community take action now to defend the Amazon and support indigenous peoples' rights.
---
The government says that Juruna will not be directly or seriously affected, but we do not believe this. We have not been consulted and we do not want the government to speak for us. We are against the Belo Monte Dam and we are committed to fight with our bodies and souls... to defend our lives and the life of our river.
----
The government is moving quickly to give the green light to begin the construction of roads, work-camps and airports, while other environmental and social conditions in question are being reviewed by the courts. We cannot allow for any construction to begin as this will pave the way for the first of many dams, including 60 more dams planned in the Brazilian Amazon alone, to be built. Even if all the environmental and social conditions are met, Belo Monte will still cause irreversible harm that we cannot allow to happen. What we need to do is encourage our government to defend the Amazon, respect indigenous peoples' rights, invest in energy efficiency and alternative energy.

http://amazonwatch.org/belo-monte-petition.php

Please help us gather over 40,000 petitions,  the approximate number of people that would be affected by the Belo Monte Dam if built, so we can make a special delivery to our government before any construction begins. If you have already signed the petition, please watch the video and share the petition with at least five friends or family members.

Thank you for your support!

For the Amazon and our future generations,

Sheyla Juruna
Juruna Tribal Leader
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jan 2011 at 01:45
So, the fact you may signing a list give you the right to speak so much nonsense?

Who said Native Americans don't have the right to theirs lands, Carcha?


Edited by pinguin - 18 Jan 2011 at 01:53
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jan 2011 at 20:46
Well, there are many forces that try to deprive Amerindians of their land.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jan 2011 at 21:28
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Well, there are many forces that try to deprive Amerindians of their land.


True. But those are separate topics. The Indians that can deffend theirs lands are the ones that are educated and better preppared. You can't keep Indians in remote jungle reserves isolated from the rest of society.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jan 2011 at 21:32
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Well, there are many forces that try to deprive Amerindians of their land.


True. But those are separate topics. The Indians that can deffend theirs lands are the ones that are educated and better preppared. You can't keep Indians in remote jungle reserves isolated from the rest of society.
 
As I said I am not against education. But education shall not be confused with Christian missionary propaganda. A good education based on science, knowledge and also respect for indigenous culture and values is the best thing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jan 2011 at 21:38
Education is impossible without the transmision of values, believes, lifestyle and practises of the dominant culture. Live with it. Assimilation is the only way to go, and it is natural, not forced.
In Latin America, many Indigenous peoples are Catholics, but they preserve theirs Indigenous customs and beliefs. There is no contradiction in that. Most Mayans of today are Catholics, for instance, but they still believe in what is described in the Popol Vuh.

The Testimony of a Mapuche Chief by Pascual Cona is a bilingual Mapuche-Spanish book that preserve the language and traditions of centuries old Mapuche people. If it weren't by the priest that translated it, perhaps many customs had died Confused. That's why I said you have no idea what you talk about.

Only certain fanatical Protestant groups are a threat to Indigenous customs. With those I agree certain restrain should exist.


Edited by pinguin - 19 Jan 2011 at 21:41
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jan 2011 at 21:45
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Education is impossible without the transmision of values, believes, lifestyle and practises of the dominant culture. Live with it. Assimilation is the only way to go, and it is natural, not forced.
 
Not nessecarily, there are actually projects based on respect of indigenous values and culture but still based on science and modern knowledge. Specially adapted curricula can make indigenous peoples knowledgeable of all aspects of majority culture but still able to reatain their own cultural integrity.


 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jan 2011 at 22:10
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

 
Not nessecarily, there are actually projects based on respect of indigenous values and culture but still based on science and modern knowledge. Specially adapted curricula can make indigenous peoples knowledgeable of all aspects of majority culture but still able to reatain their own cultural integrity.


Today is too late, my naive friend. Most Amerindians today live in the cities. Away from the influence of those European activists that come to Latin America to start conflicts.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jan 2011 at 22:12
I never read a more confused jumble of half-baked and self-contradictory statements.

What you're describing is the destruction of a culture, and calling it a preservation of a culture, just so you can justify destroying a culture on the ground you are preserving it.

In case you don't notice, that is not even a trivial argument, merely the black pot calling the white kettle black to emphasise their similarity. Or as Orwell pointed out, justifying war by calling it peace.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jan 2011 at 22:17
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

I never read a more confused jumble of half-baked and self-contradictory statements.

What you're describing is the destruction of a culture, and calling it a preservation of a culture, just so you can justify destroying a culture on the ground you are preserving it.

In case you don't notice, that is not even a trivial argument, merely the black pot calling the white kettle black to emphasise their similarity. Or as Orwell pointed out, justifying war by calling it peace.
 
A culture can consist of different parts or structures as economic structure, social structure, powere structure. Those parts are affected in different ways when the bearers of it come into contact with other groups and cultures. Soem kind of contacts and changes have a more profound and negative effect than others.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jan 2011 at 22:18
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

 
Not nessecarily, there are actually projects based on respect of indigenous values and culture but still based on science and modern knowledge. Specially adapted curricula can make indigenous peoples knowledgeable of all aspects of majority culture but still able to reatain their own cultural integrity.


Today is too late, my naive friend. Most Amerindians today live in the cities. Away from the influence of those European activists that come to Latin America to start conflicts.
 
Actually there are some groups that try to preserve their cultural integrity and a certain degree of autonomy.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jan 2011 at 22:33
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

 
Actually there are some groups that try to preserve their cultural integrity and a certain degree of autonomy.


So, what's wrong with that? Who is against that? Don't you know goverments encourage the independence of those indigenous groups?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jan 2011 at 23:10
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

 
Actually there are some groups that try to preserve their cultural integrity and a certain degree of autonomy.


So, what's wrong with that? Who is against that? Don't you know goverments encourage the independence of those indigenous groups?
 
If you have followed the situation you can see that there are in fact officials, missionaries and representatives for different economic interests that are opposed to indigenous land rights and social/cultural autonomy. At least they counteract such efforts in practice.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jan 2011 at 23:20
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

... 
If you have followed the situation you can see that there are in fact officials, missionaries and representatives for different economic interests that are opposed to indigenous land rights and social/cultural autonomy. At least they counteract such efforts in practice.


What situation you are talking about? The Xingu again? What I know about brazil is that several people deffending human rights have died, priest included.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jan 2011 at 23:26
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

... 
If you have followed the situation you can see that there are in fact officials, missionaries and representatives for different economic interests that are opposed to indigenous land rights and social/cultural autonomy. At least they counteract such efforts in practice.


What situation you are talking about? The Xingu again? What I know about brazil is that several people deffending human rights have died, priest included.
 
The situation for several native groups in several countries (for example in Peru and Colombia). Remember for example the 32 indigenous groups that are threatened with extinction in Colombia? I think I already mentioned them.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jan 2011 at 23:42
Why don't you move there to protect them?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jan 2011 at 23:44
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Why don't you move there to protect them?
 
Perhaps I will.


Edited by Carcharodon - 19 Jan 2011 at 23:44
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jan 2011 at 23:59
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

I never read a more confused jumble of half-baked and self-contradictory statements.

What you're describing is the destruction of a culture, and calling it a preservation of a culture, just so you can justify destroying a culture on the ground you are preserving it.

In case you don't notice, that is not even a trivial argument, merely the black pot calling the white kettle black to emphasise their similarity. Or as Orwell pointed out, justifying war by calling it peace.
 
A culture can consist of different parts or structures as economic structure, social structure, powere structure. Those parts are affected in different ways when the bearers of it come into contact with other groups and cultures. Soem kind of contacts and changes have a more profound and negative effect than others.

An obvious truism that has nothing to do with my point. All changes are changes, whether you rank them as profound and negative (i.e. you disapprove of them) or shallow an positive (you approve of them).

It presumably has escaped your attention that things that are changed are no longer the same, no matter what the French proverb says.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 2011 at 00:02
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

 
Actually there are some groups that try to preserve their cultural integrity and a certain degree of autonomy.


So, what's wrong with that? Who is against that? Don't you know goverments encourage the independence of those indigenous groups?
 
If you have followed the situation you can see that there are in fact officials, missionaries and representatives for different economic interests that are opposed to indigenous land rights and social/cultural autonomy. At least they counteract such efforts in practice.

So why shouldn't they oppose them? How come it's all right to take one side of an argument, but not take the other? Isn't your attitude EXACTLY the same as the attitude who wrongly attribute to missionaries as a class, and that you so thoroughly deplore?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 2011 at 00:05
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Why don't you move there to protect them?
 
Perhaps I will.


Do it. Don't waste your time on the web
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 2011 at 00:19
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

I never read a more confused jumble of half-baked and self-contradictory statements.

What you're describing is the destruction of a culture, and calling it a preservation of a culture, just so you can justify destroying a culture on the ground you are preserving it.

In case you don't notice, that is not even a trivial argument, merely the black pot calling the white kettle black to emphasise their similarity. Or as Orwell pointed out, justifying war by calling it peace.
 
A culture can consist of different parts or structures as economic structure, social structure, powere structure. Those parts are affected in different ways when the bearers of it come into contact with other groups and cultures. Soem kind of contacts and changes have a more profound and negative effect than others.

An obvious truism that has nothing to do with my point. All changes are changes, whether you rank them as profound and negative (i.e. you disapprove of them) or shallow an positive (you approve of them).

It presumably has escaped your attention that things that are changed are no longer the same, no matter what the French proverb says.
 
Actually if one shall generalize, nothing concerning humans ever stay the same (even the humans themselves are replaced continually over time in a society). But certain structures can change more or less, they can change gradually or suddenly. And sometimes they can be totally overthrown, leading to collapse or desintegration of a society. Also a culture does ofcourse disappear with the physical destruction of the people harboring it.
 
As for some peoples in South America patterns of destruction have been observed that often have similarities. One can there see that the activity of missionaries, exploiting companies, settlers and authorities impacts different parts of society. One has observed that for example the power structure often is most vulnerable when confronted with the power apparatus of western society. One can see that the social structure (including cultural traditions, religion, societal cohesion) is more resilient and a collapse is often preceeded by different degrees and forms of syncretism. The collapse of the economical structure can many times be the most serious, affecting health, livelihood, subsitence and also the other parts of the culture.
 
There have been observations that tell us that there in many cases in Guyana, Colombia, Venezuela, Peru and Brazil have taken missionaries and other interests in average around five or six years to culturally more or less annihilate an indigenous population consisting of around 500 persons. Some times the destruction were much faster when it was coupled with sheer physical destruction in the shape of violence and forced displacement.
 
See for example works of Persson or Niels Fock for further details.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 2011 at 00:42
Why don't you show the cases, so we can verify if you are making things up?

In my case, I don't trust gringos with strange last names.


Edited by pinguin - 20 Jan 2011 at 00:43
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 2011 at 00:49
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Why don't you show the cases, so we can verify if you are making things up?

In my case, I don't trust gringos with strange last names.
 
References to the cases and peoples that have studied them are above. And I have mentioned several other cases before in other threads.
 
One example is also the groups of the Wai Wai in Guyana that Niels Fock have studied.
 
The names are not strange.


Edited by Carcharodon - 20 Jan 2011 at 00:52
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 2011 at 00:50
Where? Where are the refferences? The links? How we can verify your sources are trustful?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 2011 at 00:51
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Actually if one shall generalize, nothing concerning humans ever stay the same (even the humans themselves are replaced continually over time in a society).

That's one of the points we have been trying to get you to see. It's nice to have got somewhere at last.

So change is natural and rational and frequently welcome. Resisting change when people desire change is pointless.
Quote
But certain structures can change more or less, they can change gradually or suddenly. And sometimes they can be totally overthrown, leading to collapse or desintegration of a society. Also a culture does ofcourse disappear with the physical destruction of the people harboring it.

The poont you've just conceded is that it disappears WITHOUT such physical destruction anyway.

Destruction of PEOPLE is bad. Destruction of CULTURE is by no means always bas: in fact given the superiority of life in the 21st century to life in most places in most times, cultural change has on the whole been overwhelmingly successful. 'Indigenous' peoples should be given the same rights of access to those benefits as other people have.
Quote
As for some peoples in South America patterns of destruction have been observed that often have similarities.

Now you're just offon your silly kick of 'some...have been' or 'some... may be.' Where and when people have been abused or persecuted then that was wrong and if it is happening now it should be rectified. However (a) most of the time they have not been abused and persecuted and (b) rthe measures you propose are just as much abuse as any others.
Quote
One can there see that the activity of missionaries, exploiting companies, settlers and authorities impacts different parts of society. One has observed that for example the power structure often is most vulnerable when confronted with the power apparatus of western society. One can see that the social structure (including cultural traditions, religion, societal cohesion) is more resilient and a collapse is often preceeded by different degrees and forms of syncretism. The collapse of the economical structure can many times be the most serious, affecting health, livelihood, subsitence and also the other parts of the culture.
 
There have been observations that tell us that there in many cases in Guyana, Colombia, Venezuela, Peru and Brazil have taken missionaries and other interests in average around five or six years to culturally more or less annihilate an indigenous population consisting of around 500 persons. Some times the destruction were much faster when it was coupled with sheer physical destruction in the shape of violence and forced displacement.
 
See for example works of Persson or Niels Fock for further details.

One book about one tribe (Fock), and then someone (Persson) who had to confess he had just taken someone else's statements as correct without checking?
Quote These accusations were picked up and repeated by a Swedish anthropologist named Lars Persson. Olson’s book was a Christian best-seller and he had become greatly admired. These accusations were of some concern to the Christian community in Sweden, including a journalist named Andres Küng. Küng traveled to Colombia to check them out.

He found that the big house was a communal one, where Olson had one hammock among many. The Motilones had their own gardens, set their own schedules and provided for themselves. Olson had helped them get a school and a reasonably well stocked clinic. He did not live in luxury or idleness. Bobarishora had asked to go see Olson’s homeland, just as Olson had come to his. The Motilones with whom Küng shared Jaulin’s accusations repudiated them. The word Motilone was commonly used to refer to several tribes, including the Barí. Alexander Clark also denied Jaulin’s story. When Küng shared these things with Persson, Persson apologized for simply repeating what Jaulin had said.

You do have trouble finding respectable authorities don't you?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 2011 at 01:46
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Quote
But certain structures can change more or less, they can change gradually or suddenly. And sometimes they can be totally overthrown, leading to collapse or desintegration of a society. Also a culture does ofcourse disappear with the physical destruction of the people harboring it.

The poont you've just conceded is that it disappears WITHOUT such physical destruction anyway.
 
Cultures can change, and people are replaced over the years, but still there can be a strong continuity regarding important parts of the culture. Such continuity will ofcourse be broken if a people are dispersed and assimilated.

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Destruction of PEOPLE is bad. Destruction of CULTURE is by no means always bas: in fact given the superiority of life in the 21st century to life in most places in most times, cultural change has on the whole been overwhelmingly successful. 'Indigenous' peoples should be given the same rights of access to those benefits as other people have.
 
A culture often means a lot of knowledge, a special kind of living and an important part of human diversity. To loose such thing is also bad.
 
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:


One book about one tribe (Fock), and then someone (Persson) who had to confess he had just taken someone else's statements as correct without checking?
[QUOTE]These accusations were picked up and repeated by a Swedish anthropologist named Lars Persson. Olson’s book was a Christian best-seller and he had become greatly admired. These accusations were of some concern to the Christian community in Sweden, including a journalist named Andres Küng. Küng traveled to Colombia to check them out.

He found that the big house was a communal one, where Olson had one hammock among many. The Motilones had their own gardens, set their own schedules and provided for themselves. Olson had helped them get a school and a reasonably well stocked clinic. He did not live in luxury or idleness. Bobarishora had asked to go see Olson’s homeland, just as Olson had come to his. The Motilones with whom Küng shared Jaulin’s accusations repudiated them. The word Motilone was commonly used to refer to several tribes, including the Barí. Alexander Clark also denied Jaulin’s story. When Küng shared these things with Persson, Persson apologized for simply repeating what Jaulin had said.

As for Lars Persson do not forget that he worked for years among the so called Motilones, especially groups like Erokas and Marakkas, and also among neighbouring peoples. He also worked in the Vaupes Caqueta area in Colombia and studied the circumstances in Peru and Venezuela.
 
Do not put too much trust in second hand narratives of Kungs treatment of this story. And above all, do not put to much trust in Olsons self glorifying stories.
 
And also, do not put too much trust in something called Theopedia.
 
Otherwise there are also other anthropologists that have studied the impact of mission, such as for example Victor Daniel Bonilla who studied the catholic Putumayo mission in Colombia and wrote a classical study of the subject.
 
Persson also worked with the Arhuacos in Colombia (who actually once threw out the catholic missionaries from their territory). Also the writer B A Runnerstrom has worked with aid and humanitarian work among Arhuacos and and also whitnessed about the circumstances of the expulson of missionaries.
 
In the documents and reports  from IWGIA one can read more about cultural destruction in both Latin America and other places. Among other studies there are reports made by anthropologists about the activities of American evangelist missionaries and missionary groups like SIL. Also a group like New Tribes mission and their destructive work in Paraguay is described in an interesting study.
 
Survival also write about hate propaganda spread by missionaries from USA about Amerindian groups in Brazil. The purpose of the propaganda is to coerce authorities to instigate legislation making it possible to take away native children from their parents. This campaign have lead to protests among for example the Yawalapiti and Mebengokre Kayapo peoples.
 
And as for myself, I have also got information about the activities of missionaries from contacts among native peoples in South America. Those contacts I see as more thrustworthy than missionary propagandists.
 
 



Edited by Carcharodon - 20 Jan 2011 at 01:48
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 2011 at 02:06
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

You do have trouble finding respectable authorities don't you?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 2011 at 02:16
One must remember that churches and missionary organisations often have a rather large and active propaganda apparatus that will do everything to try to smear the ones who critizise their activities. So from them one can just expect different versions and narratives. After all the Christian propagandists have had nearly 2000 years of practicing and refining their skills.

Edited by Carcharodon - 20 Jan 2011 at 02:17
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