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Is 'The Stolen Generation' a lie?

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pinguin View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 2011 at 05:47
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

One must remember that churches and missionary organisations often have a rather large and active propaganda apparatus that will do everything to try to smear the ones who critizise their activities.

And you don't?
Quote
So from them one can just expect different versions and narratives. After all the Christian propagandists have had nearly 2000 years of practicing and refining their skills.

You just have to work harder to catch up then, don't you?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 2011 at 11:21
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:


You just have to work harder to catch up then, don't you?


LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 2011 at 20:46
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Destruction of PEOPLE is bad. Destruction of CULTURE is by no means always bas: in fact given the superiority of life in the 21st century to life in most places in most times, cultural change has on the whole been overwhelmingly successful. 'Indigenous' peoples should be given the same rights of access to those benefits as other people have.
 
A culture often means a lot of knowledge, a special kind of living and an important part of human diversity. To loose such thing is also bad.
Losing good things is bad. Losing bad things is good. Losing immaterial things is immaterial.
 
Losing good things for better things is good. Loding bad things for worse is bad.
 
And so on.
 
Treating something as good just because it exists is stupid.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 2011 at 21:12
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Destruction of PEOPLE is bad. Destruction of CULTURE is by no means always bas: in fact given the superiority of life in the 21st century to life in most places in most times, cultural change has on the whole been overwhelmingly successful. 'Indigenous' peoples should be given the same rights of access to those benefits as other people have.
 
A culture often means a lot of knowledge, a special kind of living and an important part of human diversity. To loose such thing is also bad.
Losing good things is bad. Losing bad things is good. Losing immaterial things is immaterial.
 
Losing good things for better things is good. Loding bad things for worse is bad.
 
And so on.
 
Treating something as good just because it exists is stupid.
 
 
Well, unfortunately many missionaries, politicians and exploiters can not see the difference, they just push on and destroy things. It can be rather hard, without special knowledge and competence, to judge, or to know (without just giving in to prejudice) which part of another culture is good or bad, and even harder to know in what way it (or some part of it) could be modified, to what extent it can be modified and what to replace parts of it with, and still securing its survival. Cultural meetings and cultural change are to intricate to be left in the hand of ignorant and sometimes totally fanatic missionaries, greedy economic exploiters, or politicians who just look to their own political interests. Such meddling can be very risky for those who are subject to it.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 2011 at 21:49
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Losing good things is bad. Losing bad things is good. Losing immaterial things is immaterial.
 
Losing good things for better things is good. Loding bad things for worse is bad.
 
And so on.
 
Treating something as good just because it exists is stupid.
 
 
Well, unfortunately many missionaries, politicians and exploiters can not see the difference, they just push on and destroy things.
While you, in your religious fervour, just want to push on and preserve things. What you aren't prepared to do is help people get out of the culture they are trapped in, which is what they need.
Quote
It can be rather hard, without special knowledge and competence, to judge, or to know (without just giving in to prejudice) which part of another culture is good or bad, and even harder to know in what way it (or some part of it) could be modified, to what extent it can be modified and what to replace parts of it with, and still securing its survival.
'It can be rather hard' is pussyfooting. It is hard. Nevertheless you should try and do it in an objective fashion, without all this bnombastic propoaganda against 'missionaries' and 'religion'.
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Cultural meetings and cultural change are to intricate to be left in the hand of ignorant and sometimes totally fanatic missionaries, greedy economic exploiters, or politicians who just look to their own political interests. Such meddling can be very risky for those who are subject to it.
Well there you condemtn yourself out of your own mouth. They are far too intricate and difficult to be left in the hands of politically driven fanatical missionaries like yourself.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 2011 at 21:56
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

...
Losing good things is bad. Losing bad things is good. Losing immaterial things is immaterial.
 


Who is going to judge. You? Give me a break.
 
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

...
Losing good things for better things is good. Loding bad things for worse is bad.
 
And so on.
 


The same. Who judges it?
 
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

...
Treating something as good just because it exists is stupid.
 


Languages exist. Losing them is a tragedy. I better burn all the mediocre art galleries of Europe rather than lost a single endangered language.

When you lost a language, a paradigm, a cosmology and a spirit is gone. That's a tragedy worst that burning the Mona Lisa.



Edited by pinguin - 20 Jan 2011 at 21:56
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 2011 at 22:01
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Quote
 
Well, unfortunately many missionaries, politicians and exploiters can not see the difference, they just push on and destroy things.
While you, in your religious fervour, just want to push on and preserve things. What you aren't prepared to do is help people get out of the culture they are trapped in, which is what they need.
 
Its quite arrogant to say that people are trapped in a culture. If they are, are you not that too? Trapped in a western culture with all its shortcomings and, sometimes, plain idiocy.
 
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Quote
Cultural meetings and cultural change are to intricate to be left in the hand of ignorant and sometimes totally fanatic missionaries, greedy economic exploiters, or politicians who just look to their own political interests. Such meddling can be very risky for those who are subject to it.
Well there you condemtn yourself out of your own mouth. They are far too intricate and difficult to be left in the hands of politically driven fanatical missionaries like yourself.
 
Well, I do not invade anyones territory, I do not jump on indigenous peoples with the bible in my hand, or try to take away their land from them, or try to steal their natural resources, or displace them, or assimilate them into some third world powerty culture.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 2011 at 22:05
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

 
Well, I do not invade anyones territory,


You do. You interfiere in the internal affairs of soverain countries.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 2011 at 22:07
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

 
Well, I do not invade anyones territory,


You do. You interfiere in the internal affairs of soverain countries.
 
Actually I just assist people who ask me to to spread some information and similar things.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 2011 at 22:38
You are an agitator. Swedish GO HOME!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 2011 at 22:55
Well, right now I am at home (not in my house for the moment, but at least in Sweden).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 2011 at 23:16
Plug out the internet connection.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 2011 at 23:22
I can not, it is a fixed connection not belonging to me personally.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 2011 at 02:40
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

...
Losing good things is bad. Losing bad things is good. Losing immaterial things is immaterial.
 


Who is going to judge. You? Give me a break.
Whoever is relevant to the situation. Doesn't matter what you or I or Carchodon or anyone else except the people involved or the people paying for it think is good or bad.
Quote
 
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

...
Losing good things for better things is good. Loding bad things for worse is bad.
 
And so on.
 


The same. Who judges it?
Same question, same answer.
Quote  
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

...
Treating something as good just because it exists is stupid.
 


Languages exist. Losing them is a tragedy. I better burn all the mediocre art galleries of Europe rather than lost a single endangered language.
Then you're an insensitive Philistine.
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When you lost a language, a paradigm, a cosmology and a spirit is gone. That's a tragedy worst that burning the Mona Lisa.
Why?  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 2011 at 02:48
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Quote
 
Well, unfortunately many missionaries, politicians and exploiters can not see the difference, they just push on and destroy things.
While you, in your religious fervour, just want to push on and preserve things. What you aren't prepared to do is help people get out of the culture they are trapped in, which is what they need.
 
Its quite arrogant to say that people are trapped in a culture. If they are, are you not that too? Trapped in a western culture with all its shortcomings and, sometimes, plain idiocy.
They're trapped in it if they have no choice but to continue in it, which is what you want. I'm not 'trapped' in my culture partly because it is a culture with many many choices, but alos because I have no desire to change: I did when young, so I did what I could to change it, both personally and through politics.
Quote  
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Quote
Cultural meetings and cultural change are to intricate to be left in the hand of ignorant and sometimes totally fanatic missionaries, greedy economic exploiters, or politicians who just look to their own political interests. Such meddling can be very risky for those who are subject to it.
Well there you condemtn yourself out of your own mouth. They are far too intricate and difficult to be left in the hands of politically driven fanatical missionaries like yourself.
 
Well, I do not invade anyones territory,
You never leave Sweden? That could explain a lot. Anyway you don't need to 'invade' territory if you can preach over the internet or through books, for instance. 
Quote
 I do not jump on indigenous peoples with the bible in my hand,
Yes you do. It's just not the Christian/Jewish Bible, or the Koran
Quote
 or try to take away their land from them, or try to steal their natural resources, or displace them, or assimilate them into some third world powerty culture.
You just want to leave them in their third world poverty culture, I know that. For that you don't need to assimilate or take their land. However what you are doing you are doing because you think it is right, just like the Christian and Islamic missionaries. Which puts you and them in the came category.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 2011 at 03:34
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

[
Then you're an insensitive Philistine.


Me?? An insensitive Philistine LOL

Nope sir, but I believe a language carry a lot more richness, traditions, cosmologies and ideas, than just a simple painting of a travesty, like Leonardo's work. Confused
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 2011 at 07:11
Now you're trolling.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 2011 at 09:46
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Now you're trolling.


Trolling? Confused
Because I said languages are worth to be preserved?Because I said a language is worth more than a vanity from the West? Listen to this song and just guess what language it is.



Don't you know? It doesn't matter. It is unique, and that's what counts.


Edited by pinguin - 21 Jan 2011 at 09:48
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 2011 at 20:21

Originally posted by Carcharodon

Originally posted by gcle2003

 

Well, unfortunately many missionaries, politicians and exploiters can not see the difference, they just push on and destroy things.

While you, in your religious fervour, just want to push on and preserve things. What you aren't prepared to do is help people get out of the culture they are trapped in, which is what they need.

 

Its quite arrogant to say that people are trapped in a culture. If they are, are you not that too? Trapped in a western culture with all its shortcomings and, sometimes, plain idiocy.

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

They're trapped in it if they have no choice but to continue in it, which is what you want. I'm not 'trapped' in my culture partly because it is a culture with many many choices, but alos because I have no desire to change: I did when young, so I did what I could to change it, both personally and through politics.

 

Actually they have choices too, if the choices is not taken away from them by intruders. Their chanses for survival and development is much higher if they are to keep their own land and their cultures as a basis for development. If they are displaced and uprooted their choices diminishes seriously, often meaning dispersement and assimilation into a third world slum life, or even extinction. There are many examples of that.

 

Originally posted by gcle2003

Cultural meetings and cultural change are to intricate to be left in the hand of ignorant and sometimes totally fanatic missionaries, greedy economic exploiters, or politicians who just look to their own political interests. Such meddling can be very risky for those who are subject to it.

Well there you condemtn yourself out of your own mouth. They are far too intricate and difficult to be left in the hands of politically driven fanatical missionaries like yourself.

 

Well, I do not invade anyones territory,

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

You never leave Sweden? That could explain a lot. Anyway you don't need to 'invade' territory if you can preach over the internet or through books, for instance,

 

Yes, I leave Sweden now and then but I do not forcefully invade others territory, just busting in without being invited, or force myself upon others. 

And spreading information is not to invade anyone.

 

Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

When you lost a language, a paradigm, a cosmology and a spirit is gone. That's a tragedy worst that burning the Mona Lisa.

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Why?  

 

Because a language, a whole world of cosmology, thousands of years of knowledge and thinking and a heritage of human relations and adaptations is so much more than just one painting.

 



Edited by Carcharodon - 21 Jan 2011 at 21:36
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Cosign.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 2011 at 23:40
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Now you're trolling.


Trolling? Confused
Because I said languages are worth to be preserved?Because I said a language is worth more than a vanity from the West?
Because you wrote "a travesty, like Leonardo's work."
 
That was simply thrown in to provoke an angry response from anyone with sense. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jan 2011 at 01:24
Why to get upset about Leonardo? We know the guy was accussed of nefando sin...


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Over many generations, Australian governments have implemented programs to improve the lot of Australian Aborigines.

The so called "Stolen Generation" was a program where Aboriginal children were moved closer to white settlements and were educated as white children were in an attempt to give them better opportunities in life. However well intentioned, it was perhaps not the best decision made with regard to Aboriginal education.

To now claim that it was in some way sinister, is to deny the truth.

There have been many programs designed to assist the Aborigines to cope in the modern world, but few have been successes.

It must be remembered that the Australian Aborigines were, at white settlement a little over two hundred years ago, the last living example of stone age man.

Edited by toyomotor - 15 Feb 2014 at 12:06
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