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Is Transhumanism the new Nazism?

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pinguin View Drop Down
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    Posted: 30 Jan 2011 at 05:08
Transhumanism is in fashion in some intellectual circles. The idea that man will be replaced by the machine has an appeal to certain lunatics, indeed. And the idea that it could happens may sounds too far away for the average folk.

However, some people has already warned us that behind transhumanism there are some very dangerous ideas that could affect us in the future: enforced population control, genetical control of the population, mind control, genetically selected elites, destruction of the family, destruction of the social traditions and common myths, deshumanition in industrial scale.

It all sounds like Hitler is awakening from the grave to attack one more time.

Or is it Stalin who is rising, instead?



What is the Zeitgeits agenda after all? Nazism or communism?

Oppinions.




Edited by pinguin - 30 Jan 2011 at 05:14
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jan 2011 at 14:00
What you're describing is more like the societies described by Huxley in Brave New World or Wells in The Shape of Things to Come. It also sounds somewhat like Italian Futurism, which was allied to Fascism under Mussolini But it doesn't strike me as particularly like Naziism or Stalinism, if only because the cult of the superman leader is missing.
 
When you jump from talking about Stalin to talking about communism I don't know what you mean. I don'pt think they have much to do with one another.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jan 2011 at 19:29
I was interesting in the Zeitgeist movies, and I found theirs anti-religious segment to be interesting. However, After seen an interview, I realize the founder of Zeitgeist Peter Joseph, was a lunatic that preached the destruction of the family. Besides, Joseph revealed himself as a quite ignorant individual. Then I started to worry how this kind of people can influence so many others.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jan 2011 at 20:19
Needs must. what happens when world resources can no longer support the demands of its human populace.  We are near that brink if you ask me and I believe that is what is driving the foreign policies of the rich states.  With that, I'm not saying there's a coherent, systematic drive to what you call "transhumanism" as an end - in fact I think the concept itself is a BS conspiracy theory. However, the "ideas behind it" as you describe them will become part of nascent agenda of rich states as a direct result of unsustainable world demand on resources they want more of (most notably food, water and fuel).

Edited by Zagros - 30 Jan 2011 at 20:20
"There was glory in pissing, Corabb decided as he watched the stream curve out and make that familiar but unique sound as it hit the ground." So true.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jan 2011 at 20:37
It is an hypocresy to blame a population boom when everybody knows there isn't such.
We know the only continent who has a population boom in this decade is Africa. Gone are the days when Asia and Latin America were breeding like crazy. Not even India is reproducing as fast as in former times. And I am not talking about Europe or North America, where people can't even achieve the replacement level.

If that is the case, why fanatics and nuts like Peter Joseph and Jacque Fresco don't go to preach theirs anti-reproductive gospel to Africa? Go there to convince people.

Ship those idiots where they are needed.



Edited by pinguin - 30 Jan 2011 at 20:38
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jan 2011 at 21:48
The world's population is going to hit 7bn very soon.  It was under 5bn when I was at high school 15 years ago. But this in itself is not significant. 

You mention India and China and assume that their relative demand for resources is static.  Living standards there are rising and that means consumption goes up, it means there is more demand.  Imagine everyone living like people do in the West.  This is a nightmare scenario for Western nations and I hope I don't have to explain to you why.
"There was glory in pissing, Corabb decided as he watched the stream curve out and make that familiar but unique sound as it hit the ground." So true.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jan 2011 at 22:40
Originally posted by Zagros Zagros wrote:

The world's population is going to hit 7bn very soon.  It was under 5bn when I was at high school 15 years ago. But this in itself is not significant. 


Indeed. Just study who is producing more children. I bet the problem is not in the developed countries at all, as those idiots pretend.

Originally posted by Zagros Zagros wrote:


You mention India and China and assume that their relative demand for resources is static.  Living standards there are rising and that means consumption goes up, it means there is more demand.  Imagine everyone living like people do in the West.  This is a nightmare scenario for Western nations and I hope I don't have to explain to you why.


But what are you going to do now? China already has a population of 1.5 billions, but already is going below replacement level. What do you want? That Chinese live poor so only the West could enjoy the modern life?
Perhaps it is too late already to make a change, but those idiotic ideas of forcing people to sterilize will only destroy family. The world will survive, and let's hope those preachers of the apocalipsis don't leave descendents.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jan 2011 at 22:45
Easy tiger.  I was making an observation and concluding that rich countries will do what they can to maintain their advantage and that will be at the cost of the poor nations.


"There was glory in pissing, Corabb decided as he watched the stream curve out and make that familiar but unique sound as it hit the ground." So true.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jan 2011 at 22:52
But that's impossible. The third world countries of Asia and Latin America have had impresive material progress in the late decades. Yes, the news only shows the bad side of the story. There is violence and many problems, but people has increased its material wealth several times since the 60s.
Asian and Latin American countries are increasing very fast the consumption of energy and resources. Our copper mines in Chile, for example, produce several times more copper today that at the peak of the U.S. power at the 70s., when that country was our single more important customer. Countries in the region are crazy building dams everywhere and nuclear power has been implemented as well. Roads are connecting usually disconected lands. And our huge cities keep growing. Projects keep going.
There is no way to stop it. In 30 years most of Asia and Latin America will have at least the standard of living of Americans at the 60s. And the consumption of resources will increase tenfold.

We better rush up with electric cars and safe nuclear power plants, because we will need them.






Edited by pinguin - 30 Jan 2011 at 22:56
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Jan 2011 at 12:19
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

However, some people has already warned us that behind transhumanism there are some very dangerous ideas that could affect us in the future: enforced population control, genetical control of the population, mind control, genetically selected elites, destruction of the family, destruction of the social traditions and common myths, deshumanition in industrial scale.
 
By the time any of this supposedly happens it will only be because the alternatives are even worse. It's not black and white; for what's worse, forced population control or widespread hunger and social unrest?
Sing, goddess, of Achilles' ruinous anger
Which brought ten thousand pains to the Achaeans,
And cast the souls of many stalwart heroes
To Hades, and their bodies to the dogs
And birds of prey
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Jan 2011 at 12:55
Originally posted by Reginmund Reginmund wrote:

... 
By the time any of this supposedly happens it will only be because the alternatives are even worse. It's not black and white; for what's worse, forced population control or widespread hunger and social unrest?


But why to imposse population control to populations that are becoming extinct? Like the European, Russia or American? People that is not even able to reproduce at the replacement level? I would suggest those doom preachers to go to convince those population that keep growing like crazy, and don't bug the rest of the world.

Let's hope people see the warning signal this time. Last time was Hitler. This time could be even worst.


Edited by pinguin - 31 Jan 2011 at 12:56
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Jan 2011 at 16:08
I don't know what you're yattering about. Hitler favoured what he saw as racial purification, and supervision of the common herds by the elite.
 
He didn't favour population limitation either for the master race or the subject races. It's one of the reasons none of this even hints at any kind of Naziism.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Jan 2011 at 17:25
Hint: population control.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Jan 2011 at 19:30
As far as I know he didn't advocate population control. Indeed he seems to have been all for expanding the population. Gloria Steinem agrees with me for one: http://www.harvardsquarelibrary.org/speakout/steinem.html
Originally posted by Steinem Steinem wrote:

... the second flaw in the fervent condemnations of pro-choice advocates as Nazis is that Hitler himself, and the Nazi doctrine he created, were unequivocally opposed to any individual right to abortion. In fact, Hitler's National Socialist Movement preached against and punished contraception, homosexuality, women whose main purpose was not motherhood, men who did not prove their manhood by fathering many children—and anything else that failed to serve the need of preserving and expanding the German state.
You shouldn't confuse controlling the population with 'purifying' it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Jan 2011 at 19:53
Oh for goodness sakes, who takes seriously the nonsense "preached" from LaLaLand consequent to the kookiness of the 1960s. What can one say about such puffery other than Transcendatalism meets the Futurists addicted to Sci-Fi utopias. Guidebooks to the posthumancondition...bah! Futurologists? Best stick to Madam Zoraida and her psychic salon down the street.
 
That they've invaded Wiki and now pose themselves as philosophers is sheer entertainment--see the future in lacy jargon here:
 


Edited by drgonzaga - 31 Jan 2011 at 19:57
Honi soit qui mal y pense
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Feb 2011 at 01:24
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

As far as I know he didn't advocate population control. Indeed he seems to have been all for expanding the population. Gloria Steinem agrees with me for one:
...
You shouldn't confuse controlling the population with 'purifying' it.


Fellow Gcle2003. Hitler wanted increase the breeding of the Aryan race and exterminate everybody else. In any case, he wanted the same that thHese "transhumanist" boys. He wanted to control.

Control is the key to smell totalitarism. When an ideology preaches control, nothing good will follow when they reach power. No sir.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Feb 2011 at 01:25
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Oh for goodness sakes, who takes seriously the nonsense "preached" from LaLaLand consequent to the kookiness of the 1960s. ...


Some people didn't take seriously Hitler either. Lunatics like these must be taken seriously when they are still little guys.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Feb 2011 at 09:36
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

But why to imposse population control to populations that are becoming extinct? Like the European, Russia or American? People that is not even able to reproduce at the replacement level? I would suggest those doom preachers to go to convince those population that keep growing like crazy, and don't bug the rest of the world.
 
You're missing the point here.
 
After India and China, Europe and parts of North America are some of the most heavily populated areas in the world. Even if they don't reproduce at the replacement level, lack of people will certainly not be an issue. The worrisome part is that due to improved healthcare and reduced childbirth a much greater percentage of the population will be 50-60+ years old, many of them will wish to retire and there is a limit to just how many people can be inactive relative the amount of workers. What Europe and North America is facing is a higher pension age and/or higher taxes and/or privatized pension funds and healthcare.
 
India and China's problem is rather opposite. Their elderly die when they are supposed to (huhu) and don't strain the economy, while there are lots of young people who risk becoming an excess population that it's important to put to good use to avoid having them become a strain on the economy and the social harmony. In India this has to a certain extent failed, while China has proved quite good at HR management by funnelling them into factories to produce the low cost goods China's economy still hinges on.
 
Population control in the near future will not be about eradication but rather utilization. If utilization fails completely, then eradication could be the only remedy, but I don't see it being applied even if it were to be the case. You have no interest in preserving society if it means your death, after all.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Feb 2011 at 11:46
Failure in poor countries mean you have to pay more taxes to finance welfare checks.
That's hot politics, indeed. These utopians never get into the details.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fantasus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Feb 2011 at 13:39

At this time I admit I find such fear for this "movement" absurd! I cannot at all see the influence of this "intellectuals" is significant anywhere. Then perhaps I have more sympathy with the effort to stabilise populations, and even to a temporarily "shrinking" level, but not with force. And family, is there reason for alarm? Here I see those who may "destroy it" are the members of families. But   the idea of replacement by either machines or some "super" species is disgusting.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Feb 2011 at 19:15
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

As far as I know he didn't advocate population control. Indeed he seems to have been all for expanding the population. Gloria Steinem agrees with me for one:
...
You shouldn't confuse controlling the population with 'purifying' it.


Fellow Gcle2003.
Fellow? Not, sadly, of any college. I only just qualify as a member of the university.
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Hitler wanted increase the breeding of the Aryan race and exterminate everybody else. In any case, he wanted the same that thHese "transhumanist" boys. He wanted to control.
Hitler didn't want to exterminate anyone except the Jews. Not much point in being a master race if there's no-one around to be master of. The Tsarists didn't want to exterminate the peasants and the Spartans didn't want to exterminate the helots and the feudal lords didn't want to exterminate the serfs.
Quote
Control is the key to smell totalitarism. When an ideology preaches control, nothing good will follow when they reach power. No sir.
By 'population control' one means 'limiting the size of the population'. 'Controlling the people' is a different thing altogether. Everybody ambitious politician wants to do that.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Feb 2011 at 19:25
Originally posted by Reginmund Reginmund wrote:

Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

But why to imposse population control to populations that are becoming extinct? Like the European, Russia or American? People that is not even able to reproduce at the replacement level? I would suggest those doom preachers to go to convince those population that keep growing like crazy, and don't bug the rest of the world.
 
You're missing the point here.
 
After India and China, Europe and parts of North America are some of the most heavily populated areas in the world. Even if they don't reproduce at the replacement level, lack of people will certainly not be an issue. The worrisome part is that due to improved healthcare and reduced childbirth a much greater percentage of the population will be 50-60+ years old, many of them will wish to retire and there is a limit to just how many people can be inactive relative the amount of workers.
Oh you old Malthusian you. There's no theoretical reason why one needs any workers at all. The number of people one worker can support is cureently increasing faster than the number of inactive people per worker.
 
Ideally the goal of the human race is that noone should need to be active. Otherwise the main future problem is going to be what to do with all the unemployed, not a shortage of labour.
Quote
What Europe and North America is facing is a higher pension age and/or higher taxes and/or privatized pension funds and healthcare.
Why on earth you think turning over either to one of the most ineffcient economic systems ever invented I have no idea. Look at the state of the US now as a result of relying on privatisation of healthcare - vastly more expensive and nowhere near as effective, and about to get even more expensive[1] as a result of forcing people into the privatised system whether they want to or not.
 
[1] Unless the Supreme Court rules against it, which is unlikely given the court's current poitical makeup, and the subservience of the right to the corporations generally.
 
 
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