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Jews and Gypsies in Europe

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    Posted: 09 Oct 2011 at 10:08
The history of the discrimination against Jews and Gypsies in Europe is milenary.
I wonder how a continent -that discriminated continuosly group of peoples of foreign origin- can now pretend theirs multicultural society will work in the long term.

Let's debate.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Parnell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Oct 2011 at 22:30
Debate what? That some people discriminated and killed other people? Shocker.

The multiracial society is a roughly new idea, generally unprecedented in our history, and is still in its experimental phase. There are always bigots and cranks around every corner, waiting to stoke and exploit people's fears. There are far right parties gaining greater currency in the body politic. But ultimately it is still just a great experiment and only history will prove whether it turns out to have been a wise one. Hopefully we can interbreed amongst the races and created a mixed race society. Then, over time, religion and superstition would die a natural death and we'd have a utopia. Surely.


Edited by Parnell - 09 Oct 2011 at 22:31
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Oct 2011 at 01:02
I really love it how people sitting on the other side of the planet can sit there and make judgements without any real facts or experience.  For the vast majority of people race is not an issue in the bigger picture.  What is and always will be an issue is economics and perceptions of justice and it is these two factors that are manipulated by passive and aggressive racists to win support from the ranks of the majority.  This is what happens to gypsies and what happened to Jews.  Historically Jews were persecuted because of their religion - a persecution led by the Christian clergy; and gypsies because they had a different way of life at odds with modern/civilised sedentary living.

In the UK we have what are called travellers who live like gyspies, they are white of Irish background, yet they are as reviled as any Romany gypsy despite their race because they are rightly or wrongly associated with crime and devaluation of quality of life.


Edited by Zagros - 10 Oct 2011 at 01:05
"There was glory in pissing, Corabb decided as he watched the stream curve out and make that familiar but unique sound as it hit the ground." So true.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Oct 2011 at 03:18
Originally posted by Parnell Parnell wrote:

Debate what? That some people discriminated and killed other people? Shocker.

The multiracial society is a roughly new idea, generally unprecedented in our history, and is still in its experimental phase. 


Confused

Multicultural societies existed in Europe during the Middle Ages. Even more, there were multicultural societies in the Middle East since biblical times.

I am not going to be the bad-omen-bird, but in history multicultural societies had always end in disaster. In doubt, read what happened to the Babel tower LOL


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Oct 2011 at 03:20
Originally posted by Zagros Zagros wrote:

I really love it how people sitting on the other side of the planet can sit there and make judgements without any real facts or experience.  For the vast majority of people race is not an issue in the bigger picture.  What is and always will be an issue is economics and perceptions of justice and it is these two factors that are manipulated by passive and aggressive racists to win support from the ranks of the majority.  This is what happens to gypsies and what happened to Jews.  Historically Jews were persecuted because of their religion - a persecution led by the Christian clergy; and gypsies because they had a different way of life at odds with modern/civilised sedentary living.

In the UK we have what are called travellers who live like gyspies, they are white of Irish background, yet they are as reviled as any Romany gypsy despite their race because they are rightly or wrongly associated with crime and devaluation of quality of life.


That's an interesting point, I think. So Gypsies have been discriminated mainly because they were perceived as nomads, and the Jews because they were perceived as separated from the mainstream but economically powerful. In other terms, the first were discriminated because they were poor and the second because they were rich, and both because they were different.






Edited by pinguin - 10 Oct 2011 at 03:21
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Oct 2011 at 04:05
Well, there is a bit more to it than that.  Biblical Jews also betrayed Christ so their perceived descendants automatically become villainous before they are even born.  Secondly, certain practices specifically in money lending were unChristian but necessary, so it created a market gap for Jews to fill.  This means that some Jews dominated the sector and became very rich making a perfect recipe for persecution:  Not only did they betray Christ and live in closed communities (oh how they conspire), but they also now exploit Christians, so you have the caricature of the evil Jew emerging nevermind that it was only a tiny minority who became rich through banking but the majority of Jews in Europe lived in as much poverty as others.
"There was glory in pissing, Corabb decided as he watched the stream curve out and make that familiar but unique sound as it hit the ground." So true.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Oct 2011 at 04:59
But Gypsies are Christians.

I don't know, I think xenophoby was behind this discrimination against both peoples.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Oct 2011 at 06:45
Xenophobia does not exist without pretext.   
"There was glory in pissing, Corabb decided as he watched the stream curve out and make that familiar but unique sound as it hit the ground." So true.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Parnell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Oct 2011 at 07:26
Originally posted by Zagros Zagros wrote:

Xenophobia does not exist without pretext.   


Possibly there is something to this, I don't know. But in the Jewish case I think most of the xenophobia was based on envy, considering the sheer competance of this community of people and how they always managed to excell despite the entire bias of history set against them.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Oct 2011 at 07:53
One of the most famous linguists in Sweden, while talking about Indo-Aryans, made a parenthesis on the missusage of the term "Aryan". As he said, Gypsies were much more Aryan than their Nazi judges. I think it is a damn good thing to slam on someone's face while he or she is getting wild on discriminating certain groups.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Oct 2011 at 10:29
Originally posted by Flipper Flipper wrote:

One of the most famous linguists in Sweden, while talking about Indo-Aryans, made a parenthesis on the missusage of the term "Aryan". As he said, Gypsies were much more Aryan than their Nazi judges. I think it is a damn good thing to slam on someone's face while he or she is getting wild on discriminating certain groups.


Certainly, Gypsies came from India. However, they have expended so many centuries in Europe that some Gypsy groups share the same genetics of theirs sedentary neighbours. In Spain, I don't see how you could distinguish a Gypsy from the general Andalucian population, and in the Balkans many Gypsies show slav features. So, I don't think discrimination has been rooted in race alone.

By the way, these are my favorite Spanish gypsy girls Wink. What more authentically Spanish than a Gypsy, carajo!



(Thanks God you guys don't undestand Spanish, because the lyrics are quite erotic LOL)



Edited by pinguin - 10 Oct 2011 at 10:33
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Oct 2011 at 19:38
Originally posted by Parnell Parnell wrote:

Originally posted by Zagros Zagros wrote:

Xenophobia does not exist without pretext.   


Possibly there is something to this, I don't know. But in the Jewish case I think most of the xenophobia was based on envy, considering the sheer competance of this community of people and how they always managed to excell despite the entire bias of history set against them.


I don't think that's it in entirety.  For example, the nobility were "competent" too.  The persecution of the Jews had religion as its prime pretext.  Being a closed community made that worse.  And then being successful in business and enterprise was just a cherry on top for demonising them.

Xenophobia is fear of foreigners, there has to be a reason for the fear or loathing; Jews had been part and parcel of many lands in Europe for centuries.


Edited by Zagros - 10 Oct 2011 at 19:40
"There was glory in pissing, Corabb decided as he watched the stream curve out and make that familiar but unique sound as it hit the ground." So true.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ramesh V.Naivaruni Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Oct 2011 at 21:01
Here in India there are some Gypsies who can speak Spanish, Japanese, English and their mother tongue is a mixture of all these langauages put together. I feel some of them would have migrated from here to other countries and some would have returned back so I think we can fix the orgin of these tribes.  Their children are named as Japan, Hongkong, Dalton which I feel could refer to the birth in that place.
In India their conditions are pathetic, States Governments are giving them some benefits but before that comes into effect they would have migrated, so the funds on them always remains unspent.
 
The rivilarly between the rich and poor has always been there, any financier will consider the person who takes the loan not as equals so Jew in particular could have lots of enimies which are basicially out of envy and not otherwise.  Yes the bibilical inferences on added fuel to the fodder.  In India aslo we have a community called Marwaris( pronounced as Marawadis) who are basically money lenders like the Jewish community they too are mocked at for the compounded interest they charge on people.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Oct 2011 at 02:11
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:


Certainly, Gypsies came from India. However, they have expended so many centuries in Europe that some Gypsy groups share the same genetics of theirs sedentary neighbours. In Spain, I don't see how you could distinguish a Gypsy from the general Andalucian population, and in the Balkans many Gypsies show slav features. So, I don't think discrimination has been rooted in race alone.



Basically, Balkan Gypsies can have similar looks to the other ethnic groups, with exception to Greece and Turkey were usually you can see in the majority that they have a roots from India.

As for the discrimination has to do with the way of life as well. Even though Gypsies are easily integrated to the local cultures (religion, ethnic consciousness, language), many still live in their traditional nomadic style. A big problem here in Greece is the high illiteracy amongst gypsies, something that automatically excludes them from a deeper integration. On the other hand you can see vast differences from generation to generation, which reveals the will of Gypsies to harmonize with their environment. A year ago I saw a mother and daughter on a bus speaking romani. The mother was dressed in traditional Gypsi style, while her daughter looked like a posh lady that was ready to hit the most expensive women stores in Athens. You would never guess her background if you hadn't seen her with her mother speaking her native tongue.

Now, when it comes to music I would pick those three Pinguin...

The first one is from the movie "Vengo". No comments needed...



and the second one is what is considered to be the "Hymn of the Gypsies" in Greece. It is bilingual (Romani - Greek) and timeless. Since it's first release by Dionysis Tsaknis, it came out in many other languages and versions.



and the spanish version of the same song "Naci en Alamo"



Last but not least....Ederlezi by Goran Bregovic!






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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Oct 2011 at 02:40
In Chile we have mainly Balkan Gypsies, that are usually more european looking than the local population. These are our local gypsies.





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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Oct 2011 at 03:07
Indeed!
They seem to be good in barbecue!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Oct 2011 at 03:20
As for Jews...

Personally, I didn't have the chance to experience the old good famous Jewish communities of the Balkans. As you know, most of them were captured and killed by the Nazis in WWII. Thessaloniki was literately emptied. I know one Greek guy that helped Jews to escape but he pay the price by digging mass graves in Auschwitz. Those who escaped managed to pass over to Turkey or simply after many years of wandering ended up in Israel.

The usual discrimination or Jewophobia here has to do with the state of Israel and the Jewish money "controlling the world". However the modern roots of the problem lies in the equation of Zionists with all Jews. If you go more back in time, the anti-Jewish sentiments are related to certain events during the first centuries A.D in the Roman Empire, especially those in Cyprus and Cyrene described by Casius Dio. Thankfully, those sentiments are expressed by a minority and have no form of racism really, being mainly related to ideology and support towards Palestinians.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Oct 2011 at 03:36
When I realized all Spanish and Hispanic peoples have some degree of Jewish ancestry... the discrimination against Jews became ridiculous. All over the Hispanic world people has realized the links with the Arabs and Jews, and that since long time ago.
I wonder if the love and reverence for literature, so widespread in the Hispanic world, and also the ritualism in the practise of the faith, aren't in some way connected to that part of ours ancestry.




Edited by pinguin - 11 Oct 2011 at 03:37
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Oct 2011 at 04:23
I think one has to look at the Spanish Inquisition to see that the persecution against Jews was primarily religious.
"There was glory in pissing, Corabb decided as he watched the stream curve out and make that familiar but unique sound as it hit the ground." So true.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fantasus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Oct 2011 at 05:57
Perhaps someone completely unaware of previous discussions here could just relate to the initial question and try to answer. I cannot, however, since I see this already ending up in "continent bashing", from each ones own self-righteous points of view.
strictly speaking, i see little - or rather no - meaning in the claim that any "continent" - Europe or any other (if we see "Europe" as a proper continent at all) "discriminating", or doing any other harm. Some inhabitants, well, not that few, are to blame for many reasons, but that is not the same. So, surprise, and show this discussion is about more than friendly or not so friendly "feelings" (phobias may be an exaggeration?), then we may gom to the subject. Else I am afraid it is all futile.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Oct 2011 at 09:48
If you don't want a continental bashing, then you should rewrite the history of Europe.
The discrimination againsts Gypsies and Jews there is nothing new, and I didn't invent it.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fantasus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Oct 2011 at 18:11
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

If you don't want a continental bashing, then you should rewrite the history of Europe.
The discrimination againsts Gypsies and Jews there is nothing new, and I didn't invent it.



If Continnents kill, it is not a historical problem in the usual sense, but a geological one (earthquakes etcetera). When peoples kills it is not the continents "fault". Obviously not, I think.
The soils and vegetation did not kill a lot of people the latest days, nor did "the latin americans", but some criminals.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Buerebista 12 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2013 at 06:08
I think that come from the way of life of the two peoples, they are allways to be seen different from the majority and have no interest to integrate in the society where they live.
And also the Zionism for the jews and the lack of culture and work willing for the gipsies.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paradigm of Humanity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2013 at 17:06
Well, I'm living next to a gypsy neighbourhood. They appear to be of Indian origin as their brownish colour and other facial features suggests. I never saw anybody intermarried with them from here. They've usual gypsy characteristics. Most of them doesn't have regular jobs and living in the most decayed buildings in whole municipality. I wonder why there not selling their properties. They could get one or two shiny new apartment rooms if they did so... I mean those buildings hurts my eyes every time I pass though there Confused But unfortunately no one is going to buy these crapy buildings as long as town has space to expand to other directions. Because their land worths a lot... It is cheaper to buy land in outskirts of town I guess. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jan 2013 at 00:52
Originally posted by fantasus fantasus wrote:

If Continnents kill, it is not a historical problem in the usual sense, but a geological one (earthquakes etcetera). When peoples kills it is not the continents "fault".


Faults kill though.
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