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Judging History by Today's Standards

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Woofer View Drop Down
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    Posted: 07 Sep 2013 at 13:55
If there is a pointless endeavour it is judging actions of countries by the standards of today. This absurd practice is often used by tedious nationalists to wage a petty grevience.

Any action in history needs to be judged within the standards of the day and not the standards of the most liberal of the time but of the prevailing ethos of the period.

Actions are also geographically rooted what was acceptable in China in 1700 Might not be in Germany at the same date..and vice versa.

lastly is special pleaseding where one side is attacked for something that the opposition also does and then the nationalist buffoon who highlights it excuses for some arbitary reason.


For instance we cannot condemn Germany in WW1 of using Poison gas since.

i) It was not considered abhorrent at the time

ii) The allied forces used poison gas.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Sep 2013 at 04:01
Sure. For instance, if we judge the history of Britain by today's standards, we would be forced to accept that country was quite destructive to most of the world. For instance, they were the largest slave trader, contributed to many genocides including the Irish, started the business of drug traffic, and invented concentration camps. Sure, we shouldn't judge Britain by modern standards because that would be quite shocking for poor Britain's ego.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Sep 2013 at 04:35
I think that today with the proliferation of mass education and mass media we do get a lot of amateur historians who tend to judge past societies by 21st century standards, and that is manifestly unfair. Often these amateurs don't have the volume of knowledge or imagination to really understand what life was like back then.

It's nice that we have progressed ethically since centuries past, but that progress has gone hand in hand with technological and geopolitical changes also.

To the poison gas example: I don't see it as especially unethical. Men were dying in their thousands every day from disease, cold, infection and on the barbed wire of no man's land. In the latter case the soldier could linger for days in agony and misery. The Germans (who first used it due to their superb chemists) were likely thinking they might be able to employ the new weapon to clear a way to Paris and end an enormously costly war quickly. In the event the gas proved too difficult to employ effectively in offensive operations and the Allies quickly adapted to the tactic by introducing gasmasks.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Woofer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Sep 2013 at 05:10
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Sure. For instance, if we judge the history of Britain by today's standards, we would be forced to accept that country was quite destructive to most of the world. For instance, they were the largest slave trader, contributed to many genocides including the Irish, started the business of drug traffic, and invented concentration camps. Sure, we shouldn't judge Britain by modern standards because that would be quite shocking for poor Britain's ego.


Tedious t**ser. Please go away.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Woofer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Sep 2013 at 05:12
Originally posted by Constantine XI Constantine XI wrote:

I think that today with the proliferation of mass education and mass media we do get a lot of amateur historians who tend to judge past societies by 21st century standards, and that is manifestly unfair. Often these amateurs don't have the volume of knowledge or imagination to really understand what life was like back then.




Pointless buffoons like the person above and Buckskins immediately come to mind. People utterly unable to actually assess anything beyond their own nonsense. Pinguin pretending to be a chilean when he is obviously Argentinian for instance.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Sep 2013 at 06:54
Gimme a break. I am Chilean!! The fact my country helped the British once was a strategic decision by a former dictator, given Argentina was almost at war with Chile. But at the same time, all Latin Americans know Britain robbed the Malvinas to Argentina. And the reason for that are the pretensions of Britain to claim territories in the Antarctica.

Why Britain stop to be so ambitious, given is a country in decline and full of third world immigrants, and stay back home minding its own businesses?

Keep Britain out of the Antarctica!!







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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Sep 2013 at 07:39
Hi Woofer. Many forum members, and myself, have had our disagreements with pinguin's Anglophobic views in the past. I would ask that you please don't escalate the disagreement into a nasty exchange replete with bad language and ad hominems.

Back to the topic at hand, there exists today people in our society for whom social justice is really the only true and noble priority worth having. And these people will only ever see history through that lense. This gives them an unfortunate tendency to engage in the role as moral arbiter for the action's of yesterday's people, and often to extend the shame and condemnation to their descendents as a way of asserting some sort of moral high ground. It's silly.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Woofer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Sep 2013 at 08:43
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Gimme a break. I am Chilean!! The fact my country helped the British once was a strategic decision by a former dictator, given Argentina was almost at war with Chile. But at the same time, all Latin Americans know Britain robbed the Malvinas to Argentina. And the reason for that are the pretensions of Britain to claim territories in the Antarctica.

Why Britain stop to be so ambitious, given is a country in decline and full of third world immigrants, and stay back home minding its own businesses?

Keep Britain out of the Antarctica!!





I won't give you any breaks. You are an argentinian. You pronounce Che as "shay", you eat Pasta.

The UK will keep its own part of Antararctica, after all we got there before any other human beings, just as we got to the Falklands before any other human beings
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Woofer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Sep 2013 at 08:47
Originally posted by Constantine XI Constantine XI wrote:

Hi Woofer. Many forum members, and myself, have had our disagreements with pinguin's Anglophobic views in the past. I would ask that you please don't escalate the disagreement into a nasty exchange replete with bad language and ad hominems.

Back to the topic at hand, there exists today people in our society for whom social justice is really the only true and noble priority worth having. And these people will only ever see history through that lense. This gives them an unfortunate tendency to engage in the role as moral arbiter for the action's of yesterday's people, and often to extend the shame and condemnation to their descendents as a way of asserting some sort of moral high ground. It's silly.


Unless there is some way to put Pingion (and Buckskins) on ignore it remains a major obstacle to decent conversation.

The problem is not the people who see social justice as a priority  it is people who because of their nationalism -Pinguins Argentinan Nationalism and Buckskins Irish-American abondon all Prentence at rigour and objectivity.

I am a very strong Vegan and I think that killing animals is abhorrent but it would be ridiculous to single out Texas or Argentina.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Sep 2013 at 15:09
Originally posted by Woofer Woofer wrote:



I won't give you any breaks. You are an argentinian. You pronounce Che as "shay", you eat Pasta.

The UK will keep its own part of Antararctica, after all we got there before any other human beings, just as we got to the Falklands before any other human beings


You don't even know how to spell Antarartica LOLLOLLOL. Please, mind your own business in your small island of declining glory, close to economic collapse and full of immigrants. And don't rob us the Antarctica!!


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Woofer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Sep 2013 at 17:19
William Smith was the first person to sight land south of 60 degrees was William Smith and the First person to sight Land of the Antarctic Mainland was Edward Brandsfield. The vast majority of further exploration was done by British,American, Russian and Norwegian expeditions and it is right and proper that Antarctica should belong to the nations that discovered them NOT  your Argentina or even the country you pretend to come from.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Sep 2013 at 23:09
Originally posted by Woofer Woofer wrote:

William Smith was the first person to sight land south of 60 degrees was William Smith and the First person to sight Land of the Antarctic Mainland was Edward Brandsfield. The vast majority of further exploration was done by British,American, Russian and Norwegian expeditions and it is right and proper that Antarctica should belong to the nations that discovered them NOT  your Argentina or even the country you pretend to come from.


What an arrogance. Britain is a small and declining power, filled with foreigners from tropical countries, that still that have dreams of worldwide power and that venerates its own bloody colonial past. Remember than without the help of Americans, Britain would speak German by now. And without the control of Americans in Britain, that country would have very little "power" by now.Britain is an American colony!

Is it time you people start to be a little modest?  And advice: start to behave like a Banana Republic as in this stupidity of publishing stamps of the Queen like a penguin in Antarctica. Look at the gaga's face of the old lady.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Woofer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Sep 2013 at 02:21
Please do not address me at all. I have no wish to discuss anything with you. You have no interest in anything except being abusive.How you are not banned from here I do not know.

Please go away
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Panther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Sep 2013 at 06:42
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Sure. For instance, if we judge the history of Britain by today's standards, we would be forced to accept that country was quite destructive to most of the world. For instance, they were the largest slave trader, contributed to many genocides including the Irish, started the business of drug traffic, and invented concentration camps. Sure, we shouldn't judge Britain by modern standards because that would be quite shocking for poor Britain's ego.



Nonsense for the most part. Largest slave traders, that would be Spain and then us, cuba and Brazil following a distant second, third and fourth.

The British didn't cause any intentional genocides on the Irish; Climate and inadequate British policies played a bigger than any alleged genocide.

The trafficking of drugs isn't a British invention.

And invention of concentration camps, if you mean that the Nazi's followed the British standards, is a logical fallacy. The Nazi concentration camps were intended purely for creating fear, punishment and transit points for death camps. The British intent was to separate the Boers from their base and when the appalling conditions came out in the British press, the government got raked over the coals for it inhumanity. The British governments ultimate failure, a failure in logistics rather than design.

Pinguin, your points  is exactly what the thread is arguing against. Establishing our moral equivalency upon the past. You still don' understand. to put it another way, by using your logic, Chile was behaving in a imperialistic evil brutal manner upon Bolivia and a well meaning Peru, by causing Bolivia to become landlocked and annexing their land and for Peru, by forcing them into a war they tried to avoid by arbitrating grievances between Chile and Bolivia and when that having failed, did neither declare war or neutrality but it still ended up with Chile declaring war on Peru.

So, Brutal Chilean imperialists forced a situation on weaker countries. See what i am saying?

Now, if you guys don't behave, this much needed thread will be locked for review, discussed amongst us staff and if needed, action will be taken.  Also, Pinguin, you have been here long enough to know the rules. Much more is expected from you!



Edited by Panther - 09 Sep 2013 at 06:52
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Goral Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Sep 2013 at 05:18

During WWI poisonous gas was used by all sides and was considered part of standard legitimate weaponry.

20 later  it was considered morally unacceptable and  no single country  used it on mass scale (with probably one single exception in China). The ethic and moral stand are changing constantly and judging , eg. allies for mass bombing of German cities by today standard is not quite appropriate.

The same apply to use atomic bomb at the end of WWII.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Sep 2013 at 01:46
Originally posted by Panther Panther wrote:


Nonsense for the most part. Largest slave traders, that would be Spain and then us, cuba and Brazil following a distant second, third and fourth.


British follower the Portuguese example quite early. It is curious but Spaniards bought most its slaves to third parties.

Originally posted by Panther Panther wrote:


The British didn't cause any intentional genocides on the Irish; Climate and inadequate British policies played a bigger than any alleged genocide.


I would like to read the opinion of an Irish. From Ireland, of course.

Originally posted by Panther Panther wrote:


The trafficking of drugs isn't a British invention.


But the British contribution to the art is outstanding, particularly in China.

Originally posted by Panther Panther wrote:


Pinguin, your points  is exactly what the thread is arguing against. Establishing our moral equivalency upon the past. You still don' understand. to put it another way, by using your logic, Chile was behaving in a imperialistic evil brutal manner upon Bolivia and a well meaning Peru, by causing Bolivia to become landlocked and annexing their land and for Peru, by forcing them into a war they tried to avoid by arbitrating grievances between Chile and Bolivia and when that having failed, did neither declare war or neutrality but it still ended up with Chile declaring war on Peru.


Chile has less people than Peru and Bolivia together. So, the war wasn't easy at all. On the other hand, it was the second war against Peru and Bolivia, and the roots of these conflicts were the formation of new Republics in a power vacuum.

Originally posted by Panther Panther wrote:


So, Brutal Chilean imperialists forced a situation on weaker countries. See what i am saying?


Let's me say in this way. Two countries tried to play with us, and we entered to the party. Too bad we danced better.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Woofer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Sep 2013 at 08:41
Hooray for Lord Cochrane.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Sep 2013 at 00:21
Lord Cochrane was a mercenary hired by Chilean general Bernardo O'Higgins (who has Irish and Chilean blood). Cochrane fought against the Spaniards during the independence war, 60 years before the war we were discussing above. One thing that is recorded about the personality of Cochrane is that, no matter he was an outstanding sailor and warrior, he considered our people an inferior race. No matter that attitude, we still have monuments to this guy in here.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Woofer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Sep 2013 at 07:27
Well Pinguin.

I'm saying goodbye. I the brief period I have posted here you have destroyed any enjoyment I could have had discussing history with your endlessly anglophobic comments.

I am not surprised that there are so few postings here when they let people like you publish your endless hate rants.

You have commented on every one of my postings with hatred for my country.

Have fun with the 5 or so people still posting.

Signs off...goodbye
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