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Killer Instinct

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Prince of Zeila View Drop Down
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    Posted: 24 Aug 2009 at 00:47
There are two creatures that humans simply can't tame no matter what, i'm referring to the Great White Shark and the Nile Croc. I have yet to see a video of these two predators where a human is freely floating around or touching it without getting dragged into a deathroll, even the late great Irwin had to do backflips everytime a croc went for him.
 
The Cobra which i consider the most vicious creature on this planet has for centuries been seduced by the power of the flute(or movement?) so why not the White Shark/Nile Croc? Does it have something to do with their immense size? but what about the Lion ''King of the Jungle'', the Tiger, the Bear etc? I have seen tons of videos where they have been turned into little pussycats, but the White Shark and Nile Croc have this Killer instinct(or at least ''let's do some damage'' instinct) they mean no business.
 
Why is that?(if you know videos that contradicts my entire post please post themTongue)
 
 


Edited by Prince of Zeila - 24 Aug 2009 at 00:48
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AksumVanguard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Aug 2009 at 00:33
Well,to be honest there is quite many.

But to be honest with you ,I like "lions". Especially they way lions live their lives. I think the Lion Kingdom is the closet thing to the Kingdom such as ours. They have a shrieking thunderous roar that tells the rest of rivalling prides where their territory is. They will of course mark their territory, at times. They have lioness who would do their bidding and aid an all them win they are in deadly scuffle with other packs and also help them hunt  .

But in times, if another rival pride will invade onto the another prides territory, he(invader) would take all the land from the victim/losing king Lion. The conquering Lion  will  the King lion cubs (except for females) and take full leadership of the Lioness. Sometimes the rival could be their own offspring as their son. But they are noble with out a doubt.


The Lion has to keep up and maintain his "pride" and rule over his plain with precise decision.

I know you might laugh at this but I heard about some monkeys having a killer instinct also.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTPkmH4hWCs

Clap

Also can we include insects,I personally think their the most dangerous




Edited by AksumVanguard - 25 Aug 2009 at 00:55
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Prince of Zeila Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Aug 2009 at 00:43

Aksum, Lions are beautiful animals no doubt about that, but if you raise/nurture them from the time they are cubs till adulthood they will allow you in their circle and you will have build a special bond with them. A Great White or a Nile Croc however will still attack you even if you have raised from the time they were born, there is something different about them.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AksumVanguard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Aug 2009 at 01:03

Originally posted by Prince Of Zeila Prince Of Zeila wrote:


Aksum, Lions ... will allow you in their circle and you will have build a special bond with them.


Originally posted by Prince Of Zeila Prince Of Zeila wrote:

A Great White or a Nile Croc however will still attack you even if you have raised from the time they were born, there is something different about them.

Clap LOL


Yes indeed.How about wolves, they carry a trait like lions but are more calculating,and ruthless in their life. They will roam alone if they are strong by themselves or will team up if there in a very  horrendous  habitat.

You may also note that the way they administer discipline among their young and cubs is very vicious.  If a rival raised cub becomes a threat or enacts as insubordinate,the mother cub will deal with her very brutally.


Also in wolf packs there sometimes mutiny's or betrayal also.


How about ravens, those are creatures not to mess with either.



Edited by AksumVanguard - 25 Aug 2009 at 01:06
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SPQR Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Aug 2009 at 01:43
I watched a show on discovery channel a while back where this marine biologist actually swims with Great White sharks. He said when they are not hungry (having already fed) they are quite docile, but the second they smell blood they just go crazy.

The amazing great whites are the ones that live off the coast of South Africa. Whenever they hunt for seals they will actually jump out of the water to catch the fleeing seal. What is strange is that this is the only place in the world where they do this.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Knights Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Aug 2009 at 03:02
Originally posted by AksumVanguard AksumVanguard wrote:

Yes indeed.How about wolves, they carry a trait like lions but are more calculating,and ruthless in their life. They will roam alone if they are strong by themselves or will team up if there in a very  horrendous  habitat.

You may also note that the way they administer discipline among their young and cubs is very vicious.  If a rival raised cub becomes a threat or enacts as insubordinate,the mother cub will deal with her very brutally.


Also in wolf packs there sometimes mutiny's or betrayal also.


How about ravens, those are creatures not to mess with either.



Wolves - not at all. This topic is about mankind's inability to 'domesticate' or at the very least co-exist with certain animals in close proximity (and I mean, direct interaction). The wolf, well we technically do both of these things, every day all around the world. If there is one case of any animal being the most willing to interact with humans, it is the wolf.

Yes, as wild animals, they can be considered ruthless and vicious, even. But that's because they are predators living in the wild - they need those traits to survive alone or in the pack. Wolf packs do display a degree of brutality and hard-discipline, but this is mainly to keep the peace within the pack. This is culminated with intense exhibitions of affection as well, which further serve to strengthen bonds between pack members, whilst a hierarchy is still maintained.


Prince -

I assume when you say Nile Crocodiles, you speak for essentially all crocodilians in general? There is, naturally, the odd exception (Chinese Alligators?), but in general, Crocodilians don't want much to do with humans, unless food is involved. And I don't think this is because they completely lack a caring or even altruistic component to their brain chemistry - just look at the dedication of mother Alligators for instance.

I have a question about the shark. Has anyone tried to hand-rear a Great White? I don't know if anyone has, personally. In fact I've never even heard of them being kept in aquariums - for good reason!

My belief is that when it comes to 'killer instinct' and the ability to domesticate/closely interact with, it is a matter of degrees, and heavily context dependent. Different animals will allow humans into their lives to varying degrees, and this can be traced back to behavioural hard-wiring of a species; the instinct built in at birth. However, different individuals within a species will also respond to humans to varying degrees, and this goes further than simply neurochemistry. At the individual level, 'life experiences' have a strong affect on the behaviour of an organism.

For instance, often you will see animals in distress, possibly after an injury. I'll use a generic big cat as an example. These distressed animals tend to take one of two avenues when approached by humans - to one, react viciously out of fear, and attempt to attack/evade; or two, display an act of submission to the human/s. Which reaction prevails is, in my opinion, dependent upon a mutual combination of that hard-wired instinct I spoke of, as well as context and life experiences to date. And for the latter, this can very greatly between individuals within a species - a tiger may have previously been trapped by humans, treated poorly and escaped. This could invoke a negative response in the creature, when the two cross paths again.

Of course, if animal species can display such a broad range of responses and reactions to human contact, then it must be possible that these inter-specific traits overlap. Case in point, dogs are generally seen as a highly domesticable animal, who will respond positively to humans - let's say, a Labrador. Tigers, on the other hand - not your typical house-cat, and no where near as easy to forge a close relationship with, as a human. But what I suggest as this vast variation in the responses of animals to human interaction, would mean that it's plausible to have cases of tigers being more willing to cooperate with humans. A Labrador (despite being such placid and friendly dogs) brought up in a violent manner, where it is abused and even wounded by its owners, will have a strong potential to manifest the killer instinct which it inherits from wolves. If you've ever seen any of those Miami Animal Police or Animal Rescue shows on Animal Planet, you will know that dogs can certainly revert to their aggresive ways, given the right circumstances. On the other hand, a tiger hand-reared in a zoo, with frequent and positive human contact, will in some sense 'surpass' the individual dog in its positive reaction to human contact.

Though what I've talked about isn't directly to the point about Crocodiles and Great Whites, I felt like sharing a few of my ideas anyway - so sue me! Smile

What I'd like to see know, is a hand-reared Great White.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Knights Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Aug 2009 at 03:09
Originally posted by Sun Tzu Sun Tzu wrote:

I watched a show on discovery channel a while back where this marine biologist actually swims with Great White sharks. He said when they are not hungry (having already fed) they are quite docile, but the second they smell blood they just go crazy.

The amazing great whites are the ones that live off the coast of South Africa. Whenever they hunt for seals they will actually jump out of the water to catch the fleeing seal. What is strange is that this is the only place in the world where they do this.


Yes the Great Whites off the Cape display some of the most truly spectacular leaps. And I agree, it is quite strange that this behaviour isn't frequent around the world. I think one Great White may have tried it out one day, realised how successful it was and a culture caught on, with Great Whites in the area. Kind of like how different Killer Whale pods around the world have perfected different hunting methods - self-beaching in Patagonia to catch Sea Lions, co-ordinated rounding up of herring off Norway, or Gray Whale attacks around Baja and the West Coast, USA. Jumping out of the oceans when catching seals is these sharks particular hunting method niche.

Of course it should be noted that Great Whites elsewhere, also display a tendency to attack large prey from beneath with a sudden rush of speed, but rarely do the hurl themselves metres above the surface.

For those interested, here is some amazing Planet Earth footage (yes that's right, Knights managed to slip Planet Earth in again!)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5eJkjMLIRM

Regards,

- Knights -
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Prince of Zeila Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Aug 2009 at 03:34
Aksum, i do not dispute the ruthlessness of any 'wild animal' including the wolves but if i raised the latter from the time it's a cub then i'm very sure i can walk him through the park or have friends touch it without problem.
 
Sun Tzu, do you know where i could watch that video? I know about Flying Sharks they are amazing, but imagine surviving a plane crash in those waters and there is no land around you for miles. I would rather grab hold of the heaviest debri around me and sink to the bottom of the sea then have myself caught by a flying shark....
 
Knights, ah that's the word i was looking for 'domestication'. I'm referring to the largest croc in the world, of which Gustav was a member. There is no way you can take a tiny nile croc/great white shark baby, nurture them into adulthood and then create the same bond you would have with a Tiger or Lion in the same circumstance. A Shark is already a killer in the womb when he kills his siblings(truly survival of fittest). These creatures are also hundreds of millions of years older than most of the land animals and humans, maybe they represent a more ancient era - Pre-human?.
 
To add to this topic regarding the killer instinct of a croc specifically, maybe it's the size of a human that they deem threatening?, i have seen documentaries where birds are freely picking around and the crocs don't seem to have an issue with it(despite the fact that they are in biting range):
(mind you this might have been done with a computer lol) 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Knights Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Aug 2009 at 03:48
Originally posted by Prince of Zeila Prince of Zeila wrote:

 
Knights, ah that's the word i was looking for 'domestication'. I'm referring to the largest croc in the world, of which Gustav was a member. There is no way you can take a tiny nile croc/great white shark baby, nurture them into adulthood and then create the same bond you would have with a Tiger or Lion in the same circumstance. A Shark is already a killer in the womb when he kills his siblings(truly survival of fittest). These creatures are also hundreds of millions of years older than most of the land animals and humans, maybe they represent a more ancient era - Pre-human?.
 
To add to this topic regarding the killer instinct of a croc specifically, maybe it's the size of a human that they deem threatening?, i have seen documentaries where birds are freely picking around and the crocs don't seem to have an issue with it(despite the fact that they are in biting range):
(mind you this might have been done with a computer lol) 


I was always under the impression that the Saltwater Crocodile was the largest crocodile, rather than the Nile. Regardless, they are both enormous, and both apply to what we are talking about here.

And no, you can't create a similar bond between human and crocodile/shark, as you could with humans and tiger/lion. This largely comes down to the 'intelligence' and inherent capability to socialise with other organisms in a positive manner - especially in the case of the Lion. They possess an intrinsic component to their perceptive psychology (and subsequent behaviour) which accommodates human interaction, as it does for interaction with other members of its species. Tigers, though no where near as sociable as lions, are not solely solitary animals.

That photo is definitely not photoshopped. Crocodiles allow birds, particularly oxpeckers (the ones you always see on Buffalo and such) to remove parasites from their leathery scales and mouth. A crocodile would have no chance at removing these other than rolling in the dirt, so they allow the birds to do it for them - mutualistic symbiosis, where both benefit from the relationship. It must have been one mighty brave bird though, that first decided to forge this relationship!

Sincerely,

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Panther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Aug 2009 at 05:03
Originally posted by Knights Knights wrote:



For those interested, here is some amazing Planet Earth footage (yes that's right, Knights managed to slip Planet Earth in again!)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5eJkjMLIRM

Regards,

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If anything, that video makes me very glad not to be a cape fur seal.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Panther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Aug 2009 at 05:19
Coincidentally, i found this on YouTube, A Saltwater Croc (Unfortunately for this thread, not a nile-croc) versus A Great White:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-o7nLZWyinI

Enjoy!Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Prince of Zeila Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Aug 2009 at 21:49
Knights, i agree and it supports my earlier theory that because these creatures are from an era that predates humankind by hundreds of millions of years (compared to land animals like the Lion which is only a few million years apart) there instincts and 'social skills' are vastly different to a Lion or a Bear.
 
You might be right about the Salt water croc being the largest, look at this thing, it's a damn tank!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AksumVanguard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Aug 2009 at 01:55
I see what you guys mean. But there are some people with crocodiles as pets. There is a way of taming crocodiles, I have heard of some people domesticating them in their backyards and pools.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1VPSnkQV7Y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RiPG3kcyS0g&feature=related

As for sharks I really think there the only beat that have psychological instinct to kill.


Edited by AksumVanguard - 26 Aug 2009 at 09:09
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dolphin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Sep 2009 at 10:42
The problem with a lion is that when he loses his pride in captivity, he'll do anything.
 
Sharks don't go to school, so aren't smart enough to be tamed.
 
And suchforth.
 
 
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