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Kleomenes I: Suicide...or Murder?

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okamido View Drop Down
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    Posted: 28 May 2012 at 02:58
History tells us that Kleomenes I, brother of the famed Leonidas, went mad and commited suicide by cutting himself to pieces. After the Demeratus affair, it seems much more plausible that he was simply assassinated.
 
Why the tale of suicide though? Suicide from madness, while in the custody of your family, would seem much more acceptable, given the circumstances, than regicide.  While it isn't out of the realm of possibilty that he had gone insane, my problem with this is that it seems far-fetched that someone who is classically seen as having it 'together', would go so completely off the rails when a political machination failed.

My simple belief is that he was summoned back to Sparta under the guise of reinstatement, then apprhended by his family, who in turn, 'ended his reign'. If we are to believe the histories, he was attempting to organize a force in order to take up arms against Lacedemonia....what greater crime could there be?
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Panther View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Panther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 May 2012 at 05:17
That makes some sense. What royal family in history would ever want it known that regicide is not only acceptable, but politically warranted when thought needed? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 May 2012 at 13:45
Hmm...the Tudors?  The Hanoverians? The Claudians? The Romanovs?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote okamido Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 May 2012 at 18:00
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Hmm...the Tudors?  The Hanoverians? The Claudians? The Romanovs?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Panther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 May 2012 at 01:39
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Hmm...the Tudors?  The Hanoverians? The Claudians? The Romanovs?


To expand on the thought... what i had meant was that regicide was something monarchies wanted to keep from the commoners too keep them from getting any ideas. There, now i'll just slink away to the nearest corner, nursing my bruised pride.Embarrassed ow...ow...ow...ow...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 May 2012 at 15:56
Monarchies also want people to know what happens to people they don't (didn't) like.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Panther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 2012 at 03:09
If that be the case, then i am sure Louis XVI went to his beheading cursing the very stupidity of all the monarchs before him in allowing such a policy being known to the peasants?Wink

Edited by Panther - 30 May 2012 at 03:09
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 2012 at 18:57
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_dactyl

Higgledy piggledy
Louis the XVII
Often forgotten when
French kings are listed said
"Gimme a break here, I
barely existed."

But ignoring him, Henri IV and Louis XIII had both come to the throne through the qssassination of heir predecessor. Louis XVIII owed his legitimacy to four assassinations/executiions in eight reigns.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mnesiphilus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Apr 2014 at 21:39
Originally posted by Panther Panther wrote:

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Hmm...the Tudors?  The Hanoverians? The Claudians? The Romanovs?


To expand on the thought... what i had meant was that regicide was something monarchies wanted to keep from the commoners too keep them from getting any ideas. There, now i'll just slink away to the nearest corner, nursing my bruised pride.Embarrassed ow...ow...ow...ow...

Here there is a difference. Don't forget that Sparta was not a monarchy but an oligarchy. Cleomenes was murdered (or forced to commit suicide) because he challenged the powerful Council of the Five Ephors. The same thing happened with his nephew Pausanias about 15 years later. In my opinion, Pausanias’ medism was a pretext, while the real cause of his death were his royal (tyrannical) ambitions similarly to Cleomenes.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Apr 2014 at 02:18
Originally posted by mnesiphilus mnesiphilus wrote:

Originally posted by Panther Panther wrote:

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Hmm...the Tudors?  The Hanoverians? The Claudians? The Romanovs?


To expand on the thought... what i had meant was that regicide was something monarchies wanted to keep from the commoners too keep them from getting any ideas. There, now i'll just slink away to the nearest corner, nursing my bruised pride.Embarrassed ow...ow...ow...ow...

Here there is a difference. Don't forget that Sparta was not a monarchy but an oligarchy. Cleomenes was murdered (or forced to commit suicide) because he challenged the powerful Council of the Five Ephors. The same thing happened with his nephew Pausanias about 15 years later. In my opinion, Pausanias’ medism was a pretext, while the real cause of his death were his royal (tyrannical) ambitions similarly to Cleomenes.

 
And not necessarily "forced" to commit suicide.
 
Suicide was seen as an honourable way out when it was plain that the plot had failed, and that execution was probably imminent.
 
Throughout ancient history there are examples of suicide by poison or letting of blood.
 
 
God created 2nd Lieutenants for the amusement of Senior NCO's.
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