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Later Han - Early Jin Dyansties

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    Posted: 03 Jul 2009 at 21:21
*Since this is primarily an English Speaking forum, I will use English character equivalents - I do not use the Wade-Giles system, but the modern progressive, so readers don't have to fear wild appropriations of names in translations.*

This wondrous period of Chinese history, taking place from around 174 A.D through 264 A.D., marked one of the most heralded eras in world history, and is commonly referred to as the 'Three Kingdoms' Period.  A number of video games and other publications, as well as movies, and tv-shows, has been done about this era - including the infamous historical-fiction (mostly fiction)  basis for many works of such, called in the west as 'Romance of the Three Kingdoms', written first, theoretically, in the late 500's, based on the historian, Chen Zhou's 'Chronicles of the Three Kingdoms', and the official biographies. But what is the fact and fiction of this age?

Contributions and questions are welcomed. =)

A Brief History.
This tumultuous period, which would unfortunately see another of even grander scale in the succeeding 'Age of Fragmentation', was marked for its 'heroes' or exceptional historical shows of societal progression, politics, and military, that have undeniably shown to be one of the most interesting time periods of Chinese History. The fact that people who would bring their lords the heads of their enemies, and engage in brutal warfare with each other, yet would release their women and familes without any harm if they were to take their city, (if they followed what was considered 'virtous and just' at the time), is fairly intriguing. Their were numerous variables that made the time period astounding. Most notably, its people.

Of this age are the famous statesmen and scholars, Zhuge Liang (Kong-ming), Zhou Yu, Lu Su, Xun Yu, Sima Hui, Jiang Ji, Hua To, and many many more. It was also the age offering the histories of such famous military generals and soldiers as, Guan Yu, Dian Wei, Taishi Ci, Zhang Liao, Zhang Fei, Zhao Yun, and also many more.

The most notable thing about this era, is its classic historical set-up, but yet wildly unpredictable results -

~ The Han Dyansty, which had enjoyed nearly 500 years of rule, was, although once mighty and considered 'righteous' and 'just' by the people, by its creator who had faced numerous defeats and hardships before ever gaining a significant victory, and yet won the day in the end. But the rule once established slackened over the many years.

The people were growing greatly discontent, and corrupted officials, as well as palace eunuchs who were only self seeking (not to say all of them were, but almost all sources form this particular time concur that the greater majority of them were 'corrupt'), and meddled greatly in the countries affairs unchecked.

It is unknown how he officially rose to power, save his presumably remarkable charisma, but  a fellow by the name of 'Zhang Jiao' had begun to gather great numbers of people, and led a revolt that is typically called in the west, (and fairly well translated) 'The Yellow Turban Rebellion', for the clothing articles they wore on their heads.

They were mostly peasants and rough consricpts, but notable warriors joined them. This man went everywhere he could helping people, supposedly healing the sick and doing 'wondrous things'. Naturally, in such conditions, support was not unreasonable, and it was considerable as political unrest grew. As the threat increased, unfortunately, brigandage and mass-murder became rampant, and the Emperor at that time sent out procalamtions asking for current government and peasant volunteers to restore order.

Of the many that answered the call, three of of them would become the 'Three Rulers' of the 'Three kingdoms'; thus the time period's name. One of them would not actually live to see their 'Kingdom', but his sons and daughter would.

These three were Liu Bei (pro: 'Loo Bay') - who was a peasant, Sun Jian (pro: 'Soon Gee On') -a prefect of south eastern territory, and Cao Cao (Sow Sow { the 'o' is pronoucned as English lowercase 'o' not a capital 'O'})- a magistrate of a Northern territory slightly south east of the capital, Luo Yang. (The Former, and other often used 'capital' of the ancient time periods, Chang An, is just west of Luo Yang)

Liu Bei was said to be fairly charming, and kindhearted, preferring of benevolent policy. He is often credited with more than history actually shows him for, (an understanding of the customs of the time is also appropriate) but there is no doubt he had some defining traits which would later, attract much attention to him, and some of the ages most famous statesmen, generals, warriors, and scholars. He was also said, with some merit, to be very emotional and empathetic to people and their suffering, as well as down to earth and diplomatic in nature.

Cao Cao was said to be very harsh on criminals, or those who inspired his wrath, but just the same, overly zealous in treating others with equal merit. (Class and feudal rank, were very very important at the time. Cao Cao is notable for his equal treatment of men.). He too, is probably credited too highly, and studying his strange history of deeds is a long endeavor. But he was known for some despicable evils as well as heroic merits, and in some instances, wrongfully blamed. Just the same, there is alot of instances in his favor where he showed himself a more than capable ruler and remarkable statesman as well, just that his nature may sometimes take a nasty turn.

Sun Jian, would die some years after also taking part and surviving the the Yellow Turban Rebellion, in his campaign against Liu Biao. His son, Sun Ce (pro: 'Soon Say'), would lead a number of successful expeditions in the chaotic time that followed, spreading his rule far and wide in the South East, including his fathers former enemy. Sun Ce was noted for his charisma, and inspirational attitude. He was always at the forefront of his troops, and never once spared himself the dangers of his men, except later at their supposed profound request. He is also highly credited, with evidence in favor, of greatly rewarding all his men and being highly generous. Sun Jian's other son, and Sun Ce's younger brother, Sun Quan (Pro: Soon Kwan) would go on take Sun Ce's place, when he died at only 28 years old, and show himself in time as a wise and presumably decent ruler. Sun Quan was only 9 years old, when he took the 'seal' of rulership at Sun Ce's death.

However, there were numerous other events, people, and circumstances involved that formed what would lead to these three states, which would not be established until some notable years later.
But instead of typing for 40 pages or better, I will stop here for now. =P Anyone wishing to contribute to this thread please do so. Just the same, questions are encouraged as well.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Prince of Zeila Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jul 2009 at 22:27
Good stuff, i know very little about this part of Chinese History, did this particular Yellow Turban secret society have any impact on later secret societies in the Yuan, Ming and Qing Periods?
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ResoundingEagle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jul 2009 at 00:16
Originally posted by Prince of Zeila Prince of Zeila wrote:

Good stuff, i know very little about this part of Chinese History, did this particular Yellow Turban secret society have any impact on later secret societies in the Yuan, Ming and Qing Periods?
 
 


I would presume yes, though they had other figures to emulate certainly from the time period. During my time with the Chinese Historical Scholorate since 2005, the 'Three Kingdoms' era has been my central focus in depth, so unfortunately my knowledge of other dyansties succeeding the Age of Fragmentation is very limited. Perhaps someone else here may have the knowledge to answer that though. =) I can certainly tell you more though about the Three Kingdoms era though, and a good many of its figures.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Prince of Zeila Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jul 2009 at 14:45
I understand, i do hope someone has more info on that.  In the meantime my questions to you about this interesting period will be more relevant to the era. Let me start with these two: which individual figure from that time period would you consider the most prominent?(i.e most powerful/influential) and what caused these three Kingdoms with large armies and resources to become considerably weaker than the rising Jin Empire?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ResoundingEagle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jul 2009 at 03:25
Sorry for the terribly late reply Princess of Zeila. =) An excellent question.

1. It is difficult to pick one prominent man from the era, and I think that the abundance of wondrous figures in the time period were what made the story grand. Their were many sentiments and emotions amok, and many good as well as bad. The country's chaos was a complete and surefire sign of dramatic social changes and ideological exploration, that would unfortunately continue for quite a few years.

There are so many deserving of recognition, or just simply interesting figures for any historian to study. Leaders drew attention for many different reason back then, not just who would win battles. All the main lieges of the era, like Liu Bei, Cao Cao, Sun Jian/Ce/Quan, as well as their best generals, were very prominent. Some men never served a liege or saw a battle at all, and won great merits simply through reputation and abilities, and demeanor. Men like Hua To, Sima Hui, etc. (I don't think they served any master in actual history, someone correct me if I'm wrong though)

2. Now that, is a superb question. =) You pique my intelligence. I can only theoretically speculate, but I believe it was a matter of internal affairs perhaps, in summary.

The original leaders had died, and the proper sentiments or 'mindframe', understandings, or 'motivation' perhaps, for lack of better terminology, was lost upon those who didnt follow.

I will start with Wei (perhaps before one would properly call it Jin-think way before Chang Ban when the Cao's had all the pull =) )

Cao Cao was usurpful of the Emperor of his day, but was also a great hero in every regard, and was notably very emotional towards the people, and his cause. This was often a very positive thing but also very evil at times. He had even killed members of the Imperial fmaily, including the Empress. But he had never aspired towards the throne, and only to the highest position under the Emperor. His son, Cao Pi, would prove to be the worst villain, and arguably the fall of Wei.

This is not to take away from Cao Pi's abilities. Cao Pi was highly skilled and intelligent, but he used his abilities for terrible deeds. He also eventually overthrew the Han Emperor in place of himself, proving more wicked then his father, with little of the 'hero' traits passed on. From here, its easy to see how corruption began to spread, especially through the Sima family in their formation of Jin, which naturally led to a mass of power struggles in teh age of fragmentation.

For Shu -
Zhuge Liang, of whom I am very fond, Liu Bei's famous statesman, was actually more of that in history than a strategist, though he did help with much army planning and tactics. His ability to run a kingdom, and properly make an economy flourish, is a noted topic much deabted highly in favor of. As mentioned, Liu Bei was more blunderous than most stories about him tell, damaging some of his credibility, but he did have, as mentioned notable positive traits. Combined with such men as Chang Yi, Jiang Wan, and numerous other talents, they were able to make a wonderfully flourishing state.

Their end came as well, after the fall of their best officers, and the loss of proper direction as had been done by their predecessors. 
Some notes in reagrds to this statement, is that while history offers much for Guan Yu's son, Guan Ping (who was actually his real son, not adopted as suggested in ROTK), it offers little for valor or deeds of Guan Xing, or Guan Suo. Guan Xing undeniably served Liu Bei, and was in at least 5 battles, but I can find little so far as to any merits or notes about him, like Ping.
Liu Chan, Liu Bei's successor, was more able than people give him credit for, but was too yielding and ended up letting corruption in the government spread, thus creating his infamous branding as 'incompetent'. He wasn't incompetent, persay, but perhaps certainly unsuited for his father's throne.
Also, while lady Zhang Xingcai (Liu Chan's wife, and Zhang Fei's daughter) was noted for her intelletcual abilities, she had little say in affairs. Zhang Fei's son, Zhang Bao, was noted more than Xing as a warrior, but once again, to little extent of deeds or ability. So, this leaves few in line of able successors once past about 220-230a.d.

For Wu -
It is very similar to Shu, as to what caused the downfall.
Wu is one of my favorite kingdoms because of its progression. Sun Jian was a rough fellow, and although notably valiant and courageous, much like his sons - he would lack some of their political cautiousness that would earn Ce and Quan much merit in the future, especially Sun Quan.
Wu's officers were as talented as they were numerous. Figures like Zhou Yu, one of the most brilliant minds of the time, who is often unfairly overshadowed by Zhuge Liang - Lu Su, who was far more intelligent and bold than often given credit for, and many others such as Ling Tong, Zhang Zhao, Cheng Pu, Ding Feng, and Zhou Tai.

Wu's problems beagn like Shu's after its original leaders were gone. The successors ruled unwisely and more basely in later years after Shu had been taken by early Jin, causing much dismay and economical destruction.

I think, that the sole cause of their falls was internal disorder and lack of proper political maintenance. The Sima family's usurpation of the strongest dynasty at the time, and their ability, is perhaps what gained them their short lived unification. But once again, I can only theoretically speculate. =) Thanks for your questions.





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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Prince of Zeila Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jul 2009 at 18:19
R.Eagle time is not an issue, but i do resent the cyber castration i just suffered, i'm a man hence 'Prince' not 'Princess'LOL
 
Thanks for that elaborate reply and i understand now why no single individual is more prominent, there lots of names you mentioned i have never heard off, so i will do some reading on them. Your second answer is very interesting!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ResoundingEagle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jul 2009 at 18:30
sorry ^^; I had no intention...

*sigh* Normally I don't make such mistakes. I apologize.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Prince of Zeila Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jul 2009 at 18:34
No problem man!Smile, more questions coming soon.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ResoundingEagle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jul 2009 at 19:45
I really feel bad. ^^; It was an honest mistake, I'm sorry.

Certainly! Your questions are welcome anytime. =) I promise to pay as much attention to your name from now on as my replies. lol =P
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Emperor John VI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jul 2009 at 17:36
This is an interesting thread, R.Eagle!

I love the 3 kingdoms period!  I have been playing the game since I was 12 years old.  That's like 17 years ago.  Goodness, time really flies when you're having fun haha!  I've also watched Red Cliff part 1 and 2, although I still prefer the 80 something part drama seriel from China.  Pure bliss.

Prince of Zeila, you might want to check out this website if you've not heard of it.  http://kongming.net/ 

This is where I get all my information for 3 kingdoms nowadays.  I can spend hours looking at the portraits and statistics of the characters of 3 kingdoms for ROTKXI haha!  But you can read up on all the popular characters and their histories. 

Regarding Prince of Zeila's questions, I agree with R.Eagle's analysis.  Had East Wu been ruled by more able emperors instead of squabbling amongst themselves and wasting their energies in internal struggle, things may have been different.

East Wu is my favourite faction of the 3 kingdoms.  My favourite characters are Sima Yi, Lu Xun, Lu Kang, Jia Xu, Lu Meng, Taishi Ci, Zhu Ran, Ding Feng, Deng Ai, Wang Ji, Xu Sheng and Yang Hu.  One of my interests is divination using the Yijing, which is partly why I am pleased to see that Sun Quan would consult the oracle with the help of officials like Lu Fan before he made major decisions.  From ROTK XI I learnt that Wang Ji was a master of divination so naturally he became a favourite character haha!

I enjoy reading the 36 strategems of war, Sun Zi's art of war and Wu Zi's art of war.  I always admired the chinese for counselling generals to be prudent and to have self-control while engaging in the serious business of warfare.  And I totally agree with the strategy of waiting out your opponent if you have the resources to do so, which is why I like Sima Yi. 

Realizing he was not the equal of the sneaky Zhuge Liang, Sima Yi contented himself with waiting out his rival because he knew that Shu troops would run out of supplies sooner or later.  I also admire the way Sima Yi seized the throne for himself by tricking the regent Cao Shuang into thinking he was senile, then seizing power when he had the opportunity to do so. 

While I'll always admire the dedication and loyalty of officials like Lu Xun, Lu Meng and Lu Kang, the ambition and cunning of Sima Yi also has a fond place in my heart.

Once again, great thread R.Eagle.  Gives me the opportunity to ramble without direction on a topic I love haha!
Heaven may ordain, but men must achieve. -Yang Hu
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Prince of Zeila Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jul 2009 at 01:43
Welcome to the forum Emperor John VI, interesting reply and thanks for the link, they have alot info there about the 3K.Smile  The three Kingdoms initially all wanted sole hegemony over China for themselves after the collapse of the Han Empire, at which period/ruler did this ambition die out and the ruling houses of the kingdoms became content with what already had(or was control of China the real agenda throughout the period?)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Emperor John VI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jul 2009 at 03:38
Thank you for the warm welcome Prince of Zeila.

It may be a mistaken assumption to think that from the very beginning there were already 3 established kingdoms.  As R.Eagle has pointed out, the last days of the Han dynasty were turbulent times with the rise of Zhang Jiao.  By the time he was put down, the central government had already lost hold over the provincial warlords, each of whom declared their allegiance to the puppet Han emperor when it was expedient to do so.

From the time of Zhao Jiao's fall in 184AD to the official start of the 3 kingdoms period around 220AD, the warlords scrambled to gain control of the Han Emperor to give legitimacy to their claim of restoring Han rule.  The tyrant Dong Zhuo held the emperor first, but he was defeated and slain through the use of the "beauty trap" to sow discord between him and his godson Lu Bu, the most powerful warrior in the 3 kingdoms period.

Eventually Cao Cao got control of the emperor and began his rise.  He wiped out the other warlords Yuan Shao, Yuan Shu, Ma Teng and a few others I may have missed out and secured his hold over the north of China.  Then he began his march south, absorbing the lands of the weak Liu Biao into his empire, to destroy Liu Bei and the firmly established Sun Quan.  This culminated in the battle of red cliffs where Cao Cao was defeated through the Sun-Liu alliance.  He fled back to the north.

Meanwhile the Sun-Liu alliance faced internal strain as they squabbled over land, eventually Liu Bei marched west and conquered his kinsman Liu Zhang, thus forming the 3 kindoms of Northern Cao-Wei, Eastern Wu and Western Shu.

As I've said before, the warlords only supported the Han emperor when it was expedient to do so.  When Cao Cao's son Cao Pi felt firmly established enough, he forced the emperor to abdicate and ascended the throne himself.  This led Liu Bei to crown himself Emperor of Shu-Han and Sun Quan followed after a few years around 229 AD as Emperor of Wu.

As long as each ruler possessed the ability to unite China, they would never give up that hope.  After all this was a civil war and as the chinese saying goes, there can only be one tiger in the mountains.  The ruling houses were never content with what they had because they knew that would be a recipie for disaster.  Shu was the most aggressive of the kingdoms, repeatedly attacking the powerful Cao-Wei.  The repeated attacks and incompetent leadership of Liu Bei's son Liu Shan, let to Shu falling around 264AD. 

Sad to say, Eastern Wu wasn't as aggressive and tended to be overly cautious under the leadership of Sun Quan.  But East Wu was the last kingdom to fall because of its caution and natural defences of the rivers.

It was only when Jin destroyed East Wu that the ambition to conquer China was finally satisfied.  For control of China was always the main goal of any truly ambitious warlord worth his salt.  As long as any rival existed, they knew they could never sleep soundly in their beds with their women haha!  Hope that helps Prince.
Heaven may ordain, but men must achieve. -Yang Hu
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Justinian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Aug 2009 at 01:39
A fascinating historical period, I admit I first got a glimpse of it by playing Dynasty Warriors 5.Embarrassed  Though I'm making my way through ROTK and a fantastic website that contains a ton of Rafe de Crespigny articles:  http://asianstudies.anu.edu.au/Early_Imperial_China  Thank you Chinese History Forum for that link.

Considering how I discovered the era it is perhaps no surprise a figure I've taken interest in is Lu Bu.  What I wonder is what the historical Lu Bu was like?  I do not know chinese, so the Sanguo Zhi is out of reach.  It is one reason I'm reading Romance of the Three Kingdoms, but obviously that is more for the importance of the work, and to expand on what a video game hinted at.  Which is why I am also going through the articles on that website.  Very informative so far.Thumbs Up 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Emperor John VI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Aug 2009 at 01:46
Hi Justinian,

check out the sanguo zhi on Lu Bu here...english translation
http://kongming.net/novel/sgz/lubu.php
Heaven may ordain, but men must achieve. -Yang Hu
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Justinian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Aug 2009 at 02:02
Many thanks.Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RollingWave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Oct 2011 at 10:02
An old thread, but to add a bit on ..
 
1. During this period, Southern China was more or less still in a fairly early development stage, unlike today where their population and economy very obviously surpasses the North by many folds, this was not the case during the Late Han, it only gradually turned that way during the proceeding centuries.
 
2. There for, the Shu and espeically Wu were really relative backwaters compare to the Wei, the Wu were still constantly dealing with indigenous tribesmen all over their realm, while the Shu also had to deal with this problem (though they were able to settle it more adequetly then the Wu).
 
3. There was a massive population difference, the combined population of the Wu and Shu was probably half of that of the Wei,  from a economic war prospective there was no real way the Wu and Shu would have won in the longer run without the Wei imploding on themself.
 
4. The Wu king's actual hold on power was also not quite a strong as procieved, in that because the Sun clan were relative new commers and relied heavily on local clans for support, they had problems mobilizing for long term campaigns on the offensive, the Wei was far less restricted in this regard, the Shu was somewhat restricted but not nearly as much so.
 
 
As for why the Jin was able to win, first off it simply took over Wei internally , the Wei's main line declined and ended up with very young emperors, never a good sign in a fledgling government, it didn't help that at that point power was given to two officers, one was Sima Yi, who's grandson eventually founded the Jin, and the other was Tsao Shuang, who was the real effective head of the Tsao clan at that point.
 
Tsao Shuang was wary of Sima Yi, so he had removed him from effective power by granting him high position (But had no real control of the military) , while he tried to establish his own prestige by attacking the Shu, but that expedition ended up in disastor, which cost him greatly, and more over his own retainers ticked off a large portion of the officals, who ended up having little options but to rally around Sima Yi, who then launched a coup and killed Tsao Shuang and a large portion of the Tsao family.
 
After this incident, the Tsao family was effectively finished, as most of their elders were killed and those that were left were either very young or had previously been outsiders.  soon Sima Yi changed the Emperor (who had just came to age) with another kid who was just 13 years old at that time.
 
 
 
The Shu and Wu's only real shot at toppling the Wei was that it imploded internally, certainly a risk for the Wei , but that required them to be able to deal enough blows to the Wei for it to have enough of a political crisis to collapse, which never really came to be (well it did to an extend except that Sima Yi got the situation under control almost immediately, leaving no room for the other two state to ake advantage.) For the most part they had relied on their geography to hold out from the much bigger Wei army over the decades, but one slip up and they were screwed.
 
The Wu repeatedly attack the city of He Fei, which would have opened to them a lot of the under belly of the Wei, but they never managed to take the city despite comming close on several occasions.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jordan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jun 2012 at 09:41
The Late-Han and Wei-Jin Nanbeichao are my favorite periods of Chinese history.

I recommend the following books on the subject:

-Anything by Dr. Rafe de Crespigny, but particularly his Biographical Dictionary of the Late-Han, Generals of the South and To Establish Peace (the last one is a translation of the Zizhi Tongjian. see below).

-The Talent of Shu: Qiao Zhou and the Intellectual World of Early Medieval Sichuan (Chinese Philosophy and Culture) by J. Michael Farmer

-The A to Z of Medieval China by Victor Cunrui Xiong. However, the focus here is broad and, in my opinion, more oriented toward the post Western Jin period.

-Ts'ao P'i Transcendent: Political Culture and Dynasty-Founding in China at the End of the Han by Howard Goodman. Unfortunately, this one uses Wade-Giles.

I recommend the following website: kongming.net. 

Lastly, although it isn't exactly complete, I've organized most of Achilles Fang's Chronicles of the Three Kingdoms, which is a translation of several chapters of the Zizhi Tongjian, in this thread:


If you combine this with Dr. Rafe de Crespigny's Zizhi Tongjian translations, you literally have the entire section of the Zizhi Tongjian relevant to the Late-Han civil wars and Three Kingdoms period (namely everything featured in the Sanguo Yanyi novel) online and fully translated into English.


Edited by Jordan - 04 Jun 2012 at 09:44
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fusong Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jun 2012 at 21:30
I am very interested in Chinese History though I often have problems remembering all of the names and places, but it seems like to me I am getting a preview for the movie red cliff..


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jordan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jun 2012 at 01:19
Yeah, Red Cliffs/Chi Bi is probably the most famous battle from this period, and one of the most famous naval engagements in Chinese History. It has been portrayed in a whole lot of dramas, movies, etc. Another significant one was the Battle of Feishui, but that one is slightly beyond the scope of this particular board (it took place during Eastern Jin times).
"Learning without thought is pointless. Thought without learning is dangerous."

~Confucius
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