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Captain Vancouver View Drop Down
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    Posted: 01 May 2015 at 01:28
Where they any that remained from the Vietnam War, that ended 40 years ago this week?

Despite the deaths of a million+ people, and a travail and transformation of America not seen in recent times, the geopolitical games go on. Mr Bush has had his go at Iraq and Afghanistan, and dismayingly, now that China is flexing its new muscles, it seems intend on the same sort of adolescent gamesmanship as past imperial powers. And that's just a short list.

Is that it? All those marches and protests, and today youth are too engrossed in their i-phones to join a march.

Are we in better shape, sociologically, or worse?

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caldrail View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 May 2015 at 11:48
Geopolitical games go on because that's how human beings do business and always have. It was the same in the ancient world and will be the same in the far future because that's the nature of the beast.

Edited by caldrail - 02 May 2015 at 11:48
http://www.unrv.com/forum/blog/31-caldrails-blog/
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 May 2015 at 18:40
I would add Pakistan to the list as the so called rebuilding resulted in the depletion of natural resources and lucrative contracts for US and UK. Pakistanis themselves are in more chaos than ever.


"One way to manipulate the natural human tendency to trust is by breaking down trust. You break down trust by breaking down society. You break down society by breaking down the family. You break down the family by making it difficult for the family to survive.

There are many ways to do this. You might start a war and make them refugees. You might make it difficult for the family to survive by increasing economic pressures, crime, drugs, etc. You might get people all hopped up on sex and fantasies so they lose track of their priorities and break trust with each other. Whatever method you choose, you keep the pressure on relentlessly. These relentless forces pull families apart. Once you pull the families apart and get them on the move, people become more vulnerable and easier to manipulate. Then you reprogram them. You tell them who to blame. You pit them against each other. It becomes easier and easier as the people forget how to be any other way.

Strong families are the first line of defense against social engineering. Therefore strong families are also the UNDECLARED MORTAL ENEMY of social engineers."

https://inpursuitofhappiness.wordpress.com/2011/11/27/the-social-engineers/
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wolfhnd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 May 2015 at 01:34
Why do we constantly bring up Vietnam?  The US involvement there while poorly managed is not an example of anything other than an attempt to contain a demonstratively evil ideological perversion of communism.  If you ignore the preceding 6 decades and the horrors of Stalinism and Maoism the arguments may be sound regarding the immorality of America's Vietnam war.  Any objective observer at the time should have been aware of the atrocities committed by ho chi minh as well.  The lack of intellectual sophistication on the part of those who protested the war is almost as frightening as the poor quality of advise the American leadership received.  Who amongst the protesters were there when the tragedies in Cambodia were taking place? 

If you want examples of immoral American foreign policies there are many better examples starting with the Mexican war, the Spanish war and the Panama canal zone.  Failure to see the direct link between "communist" imperialism in Eastern Europe and Korea has long been ignored when discussing Vietnam and I can only believe that it is due to an unwarranted faith in socialism.  

Ideology can be dangerous and as best I can tell Karl Marx never got out of the fly bottle.  Blind belief in any ideology is unwarranted and unproductive.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2015 at 20:13
Vietnam was the defining event for that large demographical mass known as the baby boomers, the "me" generation, who tended to see the world as an extension of themselves.  They also had a huge influence due to their numbers, but with attrition that is changing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Captain Vancouver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 2015 at 00:23
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

Vietnam was the defining event for that large demographical mass known as the baby boomers, the "me" generation, who tended to see the world as an extension of themselves.  They also had a huge influence due to their numbers, but with attrition that is changing.

Do you really think the '60s generation was more self absorbed than later ones? It seems to me that later cohorts of youth have been much more narrow and self focused and apolitical. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 2015 at 03:12
Originally posted by Captain Vancouver Captain Vancouver wrote:


Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

Vietnam was the defining event for that large demographical mass known as the baby boomers, the "me" generation, who tended to see the world as an extension of themselves.  They also had a huge influence due to their numbers, but with attrition that is changing.


Do you really think the '60s generation was more self absorbed than later ones? It seems to me that later cohorts of youth have been much more narrow and self focused and apolitical. 


I think the baby boomers had a beautiful childhood, a relative period of calm and an ease to life in general. From housekeeping to building a career in emerging new technologies. Almost a social amnesia about the Great Depression.
The grandparents were happy to keep their grandchildren divorced from that brutal reality and that is what gave Booomers the courage to dream big. Boomers believed that Vietnam was a threat (pro or against the war) and that the world could be saved from tyranny. It may have been an artificial sense of dominance over world events and a negation of lessons learned throughout history so many thousands of years ago.
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 May 2015 at 00:29
When the United States has half the world's industry after WWII, yes life was good in the fifties and sixties, but also very shallow in many areas.  The men came back from the war and the women went back into the home, sort of.  There is a tremendous boom of education with the GI bill, but also in areas a vague dissatisfaction with the huge impersonal multiversity, the pact between higher education and business, and the belief that everything can be quantified.  When Vietnam came around, but college students were exempt, well that just created a bigger pool of dissatisfaction in the university, and a lot of guilt.  I've been told that the number one major in '68 at University of Colorado at Boulder was philosophy, you might say there was a lot of soul searching, and pseudo-soul searching.
There is a film showing Berkeley in the sixties, and it is really pretty interesting, something in front of the student union I believe, students are singing, 'we shall overcome.' and the song just metamorphosizes quite "naturally" into the Beetles' "Yellow Submarine.'  It doesn't seem staged, its just someone recording the scene caught this, and it is a perfect symbol for what happened in the sixties.
I think there are a lot of beautiful dreams that come out of the sixties, problem is some of those turned into horrific nightmares, and there are some people both then and today, who cannot tell the difference between the two.  Then, I think the followers of Manson would qualify, Jim Jones is in the '70s, but his cult would also prove to be a nightmare.  Today though, I think a lot of the new generations are skittish and distrusting of anything that hints of the idealism and the group identity put forth in the '60s.  You had a lot of religious and missionary work in the '60s (again, soul-searching and pseudo-soul-searching).  In its secular form, the peace corp.  You had "participatory" democracy (SDS), but all that meant is either the people who were experts in area led, or worse, the charismatics led.  Both the experts and the charismatics had their agendas, which means that maybe representative democracy is not that bad after all.  But we had to try participatory democracy to know its problems, and maybe some day, we'll have a better notion of when and what it is good for.  hmmmm.  I can't see how to wrap it up, except to say to the Captain, that having been bit (or more precisely now, having heard the stories of how people got bit), people these days are shy from commitment (politics, religion, "relationships," etc.).  I think they're right and they're wrong, I think that there were some very high, highs, and very low, lows, and I think people are leary of putting themselves in that current again.  On the other hand, I think they should get over it and move on, collect together the experiences, learn from them, and come up with a new way of looking at things.
I just want to say, there can be a self-righteous of people from the sixties that can be annoying, I was working in a Taco Bell booth, in a Total gas station, years ago.  Some guy came in and ordered, and while I was fixing his order, he said, "My generation stopped the war, what has your generation done!"  I said under my breath (but I think he heard me), "my generation is making your generation tacos." [do you want your order, or what?].  The baby boomers had a lot of opportunity, and I am not very sure what they did with it.  Sometimes, they do like patting themselves on the back, but to be honest, don't we all.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 May 2015 at 03:32
Originally posted by franciscoan franciscoan wrote:



I just want to say, there can be a self-righteous of people from the sixties that can be annoying, I was working in a Taco Bell booth, in a Total gas station, years ago. Some guy came in and ordered, and while I was fixing his order, he said, "My generation stopped the war, what has your generation done!" I said under my breath (but I think he heard me), "my generation is making your generation tacos." [do you want your order, or what?]. The baby boomers had a lot of opportunity, and I am not very sure what they did with it. Sometimes, they do like patting themselves on the back, but to be honest, don't we all.


I think the tigers on the Ho Chi Minh trail stopped the war.



From McNamara's auto biography;
"He admits, for example, the profound impact on him of the self-immolation of the young Quaker, Norman Morrison, outside his Pentagon office in November 1965, and he deplores the way he bottled up his reaction. He also admits that the impact of visits to Harvard and Amherst in 1966 led to his realization that "opposition to the administration's Vietnam policy increased with the institution's prestige and the educational attainments of its students."

Johnson long suspected that his defense minister's dovishness derived from the sinister influence of Robert Kennedy, but McNamara recalls a dramatic encounter in which Jackie Kennedy literally beat his chest and demanded that he "do something to stop the slaughter." Though a private person, he speaks with remarkable candor about the effects of the war on himself and his family.

McNamara has never been conventional, however, and his memoir seems more apology than apologia. Throughout the book, he concedes -- and deplores -- the errors of his ways, for all practical purposes assuming personal responsibility for the Vietnam debacle. The list goes on almost in the fashion of a litany. The secretary of defense was a key figure in decisions to escalate the war between 1961 and 1965, and he readily concedes that the assumptions upon which he and his colleagues acted were badly flawed.

They approached Vietnam, he recalls, with "sparse knowledge, scant experience and simplistic assumptions." Victims of their own "innocence and confidence," they foolishly viewed communism as monolithic, knew nothing about Indochina, and were "simple-minded" regarding the historical relationship between China and Vietnam. They badly misjudged Ho Chi Minh's nationalism and consistently overestimated South Vietnam's ability to survive." https://www.foreignaffairs.com/reviews/review-essay/1995-05-01/wrong-kind-loyalty-mcnamaras-apology-vietnam
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 May 2015 at 05:53
And how many killed after Saigon fell?  I don't know, but considering the boat people, it must have been sizable, and then a nationalist and "united" Vietnam invaded Cambodia (and Laos?) which looking back, may have been a good thing, considering that they displaced the Khemer Rouge and Pol Pot.  But for America it was all now "out of sight, out of mind."  The American left, which had expressed so much concern about human rights violations of Americans and the ARVN (South Vietnam troops), lost interest in the blood bath after Saigon fell.  I say, "lost interest," but that implies that they had any interest in the first place, for American radicals, too often these were fellow travellers and therefore they could do no wrong in furthering the revolution.  
My point is that we really screwed the pooch on that one, although about that same time we normalized relations with China, which fundamentally changed the dynamics of the Cold War. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 May 2015 at 08:08
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

And how many killed after Saigon fell?  I don't know, but considering the boat people, it must have been sizable, and then a nationalist and "united" Vietnam invaded Cambodia (and Laos?) which looking back, may have been a good thing, considering that they displaced the Khemer Rouge and Pol Pot.  But for America it was all now "out of sight, out of mind."  The American left, which had expressed so much concern about human rights violations of Americans and the ARVN (South Vietnam troops), lost interest in the blood bath after Saigon fell.  I say, "lost interest," but that implies that they had any interest in the first place, for American radicals, too often these were fellow travellers and therefore they could do no wrong in furthering the revolution.  
My point is that we really screwed the pooch on that one, although about that same time we normalized relations with China, which fundamentally changed the dynamics of the Cold War. 

After 25 years in Cambodia the Vietnamese came home to same treatment as US vets returning from Viet Nam. Cambodia remains hostile to Vietnam to this day.

"Pol Pol's army captured the capital on April 17, 1975, after a devastating five-year civil war. During it, the United States dropped more bombs on Cambodia in its campaign against Pol Pot than it had unleashed on Japan during World War II. After it, with breathtaking speed, Pol Pot and his black-clad followers immediately ordered weary Cambodians to leave their homes for the countryside and begin life at ''Year Zero.'' After three years of terror, he was driven from power in 1979 by an invasion from neighboring Vietnam.

From then on, Pol Pot used the geopolitics of the cold war to his advantage, convincing most of Asia and the non-Communist world that his Khmer Rouge Government was unlawfully thrown out by Vietnam. His exiled government retained the political recognition of the United States and much of the world throughout the 1980's while Vietnamese-occupied Cambodia was placed under severe international sanctions.

Until the approach of internationally supervised elections in 1992, the Khmer Rouge occupied Cambodia's seat at the United Nations and took the leading role in agencies like Unesco."


http://www.nytimes.com/1998/04/17/world/death-pol-pot-pol-pot-brutal-dictator-who-forced-cambodians-killing-fields-dies.html
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain
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