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Little-Known Facts about Teddy Roosevelt

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote doublejm1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Mar 2013 at 21:50
Today I read that at his inauguration Teddy wore a ring that had one of Abe Lincoln's hairs on it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Mar 2013 at 01:15
Originally posted by doublejm1 doublejm1 wrote:

Today I read that at his inauguration Teddy wore a ring that had one of Abe Lincoln's hairs on it.


That's very cynical, given sweet Teddy considered Latinos to be inferior people, dividing countries and invading lands at will. Anyways, at last there was justice. Latino microbes got rid of Indiana John Roosevelt and sent that nuisance to the tomb.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Panther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Mar 2013 at 07:38
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:


That's very cynical, given sweet Teddy considered Latinos to be inferior people, dividing countries and invading lands at will.


Don't just assert your opinions. Please back these up with evidence and primary sources.

Quote
 Anyways, at last there was justice. Latino microbes got rid of Indiana John Roosevelt and sent that nuisance to the tomb.


This makes no sense!



Edited by Panther - 30 Mar 2013 at 07:38
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Mar 2013 at 11:30
I was once banned for showing these cartoon. But this is actually how "sweet" Teddy is seen in Latin America, particularly in the Central America and the Caribbean. Teddy is the incarnation of imperialism, and that's why he is hated here.








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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Mar 2013 at 14:41
Who is/was Indiana John Roosevelt?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Mar 2013 at 17:33
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Who is/was Indiana John Roosevelt?


Teddy was a sort of Indiana Jones, isn't? He died of a illness he got in an adventure in the jungles.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Mar 2013 at 19:24
Sorry. You had me puzzled there awhile.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Apr 2013 at 02:43
Penguin, in reference to your statements as to how Teddy Roosevelt is viewed in Central America and the Caribbean, you state that he is hated "here".

Exactly where is "here"? He's certainly not hated in Panama, nor Puerto Rico, Costa Rica, nor in any of the English, Dutch, or French speaking Caribbean islands. Where do you this 'I speak for the Caribbean and Central American peoples' stuff? Is it in the water, or the local grass?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote doublejm1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Apr 2013 at 03:01
Originally posted by kilroy kilroy wrote:

Teddy was also a stout conservationist; creating as many as five national parks and protected land marks, such as the grand canyons as national monuments (105 total areas in all) many of them would be converted into national parks in later years, Grand Canyon included.   

He certainly did a lot more for the environment than most, if not all, other presidents.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Apr 2013 at 03:13
Originally posted by lirelou lirelou wrote:

Penguin, in reference to your statements as to how Teddy Roosevelt is viewed in Central America and the Caribbean, you state that he is hated "here".

Exactly where is "here"? He's certainly not hated in Panama, nor Puerto Rico, Costa Rica, nor in any of the English, Dutch, or French speaking Caribbean islands. Where do you this 'I speak for the Caribbean and Central American peoples' stuff? Is it in the water, or the local grass?


As in everywhere, most people don't even know Teddy existed. However, you shouldn't forget he was the symbol of American Imperialism. He acted mainly in the Caribbean and in Colombia, and he was the main cause Colombia lost Panama.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Apr 2013 at 19:54
Originally posted by kilroy kilroy wrote:

Teddy was also a stout conservationist;
He certainly wasn't a slender one.


Edited by gcle2003 - 08 Apr 2013 at 19:56
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paradigm of Humanity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Apr 2013 at 20:05
I guess this was the guy who took over Spanish colonies of Cuba and Philippines. Another irrelevant imperialist.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote doublejm1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jul 2013 at 04:11
Maybe it didn't help that he drank a gallon of coffee a day. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote doublejm1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Aug 2013 at 05:40
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Who is/was Indiana John Roosevelt?


Teddy was a sort of Indiana Jones, isn't? He died of a illness he got in an adventure in the jungles.

He sure was. He was like a lion that could not be tamed.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Aug 2013 at 03:58
Unlike Teddy, Jefferson was an intelligent man that deserves respect. Sure, he owned slaves, and had a black mistress (some quite normal on the day) but otherwise he was not an imperialist.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Aug 2013 at 05:27
First, Teddy was also in the Army that took Puerto Rico and Guam from the Spanish, so let's give him full credit, though he never served in either place.

Yes, the Imperialists within the U.S. political spectrum patted themselves on the back for giving the U.S. an Empire. Among their dastardly deeds can be counted that of recognizing Cuban independence (yes, there was that pesky Platt Amendment), the recognition of the independence of the Republic of Panama (congruent to recognition of an American Canal Zone, the building of the Panama Canal to the great benefit of most South American countries, they ended up recognizing the Philippines as a Republic, made Puerto Ricans citizens of the U.S. (which the majority of the island's independence advocates insist on holding on to), granted Puerto Rico commonwealth status in 1952, which continues to this day, and in 1982 Guam's residents chose to become a Commonwealth of the U.S.

So, when is the next plebiscite on Easter Island? Have the indigenous Easter Islanders ever been offered a chance to become an independent nation? Cuba and the Philippines did. Puerto Rico and Guam chose continued association with the U.S. via Commonwealth.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Aug 2013 at 03:49
So, do you mean sweet Teddy participated in the independence of Panama? How convenient. Even when it is quite obvious to not naive Latin Americans that was a cheap deal for the U.S. And it is considered up to this day as a convenient grabbing of a province from Colombia to build an American channel. Indeed, it may American Indians forget but Latin Americans never do.

And with respect to Philippines, don't tell me sweet Teddy was involved in the genocide of about 1,5 million Philippines, or was it afterwards? In any case, Americans caused it.

With respect to Easter Island plebiscite, when you free Hawaii and Puerto Rico, we may consider it. Preach with actions, please.

And, forget it, for Latin Americans, the U.S. has always been and will always be an imperialist nation, whose main business is feeding its huge armed forces. In the past, the U.S. fooled around in large scale in our region; today is doing the same in Iraq, Afghanistan and  perhaps in the future will take actions (in the name of freedom, patriotism or other excuse, of course) in other places of Asia, such as Iran, North Korea or whatever. The point is that the U.S. can't live without invading and threatening other people. The U.S. can't live without enemies, and if it has none, it just invent it. And that is the legacy of sweet Teddy, God have in his holy kingdom Confused.




Edited by pinguin - 15 Aug 2013 at 04:00
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Aug 2013 at 05:21
1.5 million Filipinos? My, where do you get your statistics? I assume it's off some workers of the world site, or some such. Hawaii already voted itself a State. Puerto Rico can declare independence at any time. The majority of Americans would gladly send that $22 Billion a year in subsidies elsewhere. But, the people of Puerto Rico keep weighing in on the side of Commonwealth. Congress could unilaterally make Puerto Rico an independent country, but those in Congress from states with significant Puerto Rican populations know very well that voting to mandate independence for Puerto Rico would cost them votes in the next election. That's the downside of democracy.

As for Panama, it could not have built the Canal itself. The French tried, and failed. Nicaragua was under serious consideration, but Panama won the day. And despite whatever travails they had, it turned out to be a decision to Panama's great benefit. Their GDP in purchasing power parity was $15,900 in 2012, compared to Chile's $18,700. Not bad for a mere former province of Colombia. And they didn't have to live through the Violencia or years of FARC/ELN warfare.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Aug 2013 at 16:04
Certainly. Americans aren't aware of the victims they leave abroad. They don't know about the millions of Vietnamese that died during the Vietnam War. Actually, instead of "don't know" It would be more precise to say "they don't care". Americans only cry about theirs own 60.000 soldiers that died smoking marihuana in a nonsense war. The same is in the case of the Philippine American War.

As for Panama, who cares if the Americans could build a channel? The point is simply Americans do abroad whatever they wishes because theirs money and military power. As simply as that. It is not a matter of values or spreading democracy (just excuses, of course). The U.S. simply has military power and behaves as it wishes, otherwise nukes or crash anyone that opposes them.

Finally, it is "America" a democratic country? It seems the military industry and the powers behind the curtains has a lot of influence in this marvelous society. How real power has the American people, anyway? Well, those American people that think, who are not a majority in that country anyways. American freedom and democracy seem to me just another euphemisms of which Americans are so accustomed to say.









 

Edited by pinguin - 15 Aug 2013 at 16:07
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Aug 2013 at 05:31
The one thing that becomes plainer with every post is that Pinguin knows next to nothing about the United States. But then, any Chilean who makes claims that Chileans are largely descended from Amerindians obviously has his blinders rigidly in place. There is an expression in Spanish: Cubriendo el cielo con la mano. Covering the sky with your hand (to avoid seeing the obvious).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Aug 2013 at 00:52
Originally posted by es_bih es_bih wrote:


My friend are you seriously blaming only the US for the Vietnam war?


No. The Vietnam war was the fault of France! But the U.S. was naive enough to fall in that trap. The world was in the middle of a Cold War, and the superpowers were playing chess with the poorer countries. But why the U.S. had to make the stupid move to continue a war in the antipodes? Why don't let Asians to fight wars among themselves, and just watch them? Why the U.S. expend so much money and resources in things that aren't its business?

The same thing I believe on Europe. For me Europe is a barbarian continent in continuous state of war, that was changed thanks to the U.S. intervention in WWI, WWII and the Cold War. But now in peace, the U.S. hasn't manage to leave Europe, and still it has military bases in dozens of countries there. Even more, in former Yugoslavia the U.S. has to intervene once again, because Europeans weren't capable to do it by themselves. Why the U.S. has to be the nanny of Europe? Why the Europeans, Koreans and Japanese don't pay the protection the U.S. bring to them, and they receive for free?

With all those facts, obviously the U.S. is heading to bankruptcy! Confused

If I were an American, be certain that I would be against the military establishment and an isolationist. I would like to see a prosperous and creative U.S. that leave the world to higher standards of living and peace, but I don't like the U.S. imperialistic and cop of the world.

I think the U.S. expend too much money in far away places while problems are escalating back home.



Edited by pinguin - 17 Aug 2013 at 01:00
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Aug 2013 at 01:07
Originally posted by lirelou lirelou wrote:

The one thing that becomes plainer with every post is that Pinguin knows next to nothing about the United States. But then, any Chilean who makes claims that Chileans are largely descended from Amerindians obviously has his blinders rigidly in place. There is an expression in Spanish: Cubriendo el cielo con la mano. Covering the sky with your hand (to avoid seeing the obvious).


What I don't know about the U.S.? Please explain what is so surprisingly different from what I know and everybody knows.

And Chile is not an Amerindian civilization but a former Spanish colonial country with a lot of German, French, British and American influences. Chile is not Bolivia or Guatemala, but it is not Spain or Britain either. We aren't "western" in the same sense that the U.S. is western.

The people, genetically, is mainly European and Amerindian by far (In proportions 60-40%), which has been proven by medical studies. Among the upper classes the proportion of European is higher, but everyone has a feather in the family tree. And beyond the surface, Chileans that know theirs roots easily find out Amerindian influences in contemporary culture, that goes from traditional foods to slang.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Aug 2013 at 07:07
Penguin said:

"No. The Vietnam war was the fault of France! But the U.S. was naive enough to fall in that trap. The world was in the middle of a Cold War, and the superpowers were playing chess with the poorer countries. But why the U.S. had to make the stupid move to continue a war in the antipodes? Why don't let Asians to fight wars among themselves, and just watch them? Why the U.S. expend so much money and resources in things that aren't its business?"

Yes, some of the fault of the Vietnam War lay with the French. Had they started making serious changes to the way they governed Indochina in 1914,1945 may well have been a different experience. They should have read the handwriting on the wall in 1906, when Teddy negotiated the end of the Russo-Japanese War, the war that sounded the death knell of European colonialism and neo-colonialism in Asia.

As for the U.S. making a 'stupid move', perhaps one had to be there to appreciate it. After the division of Europe, civil war in China, civil war in Greece, the occupation of Czechoslovakia by the Soviet Army after its people had freely voted in a Communist government that promptly outlawed all other parties, the division of Korea, the communist backed Malayan Insurgency, and a communist backed insurgency in Indochina, and over in Europe, the Berlin Blockade. (omitted here is the Malaysian War of Independence, which the U.S. favoured). Much of this came to a head in 1949-50: October 1949 Mao Zhe-dong takes Beijing, the Nationalists began evacuating to Taiwan. February 1950: U.S. recognizes the State of Vietnam. 25 June 1950, Soviet created Korean People's Army crosses DMZ and drives on Seoul, taking the city on 28 June. ROK "puppet" Army manages to fight its way South while the Americans scramble to assemble and transport troops to Korea. (Note, U.S. Navy already has a sizable presence between China and Taiwan) 30 October 1950: Grito de Jayuya. Puerto Rican Nationalist party seizes town in the interior of the Island. National Guard move in to clear them out. ! November 1950, Two members of Puerto Rican Nationalist Party attempt to force their way into the Blair House in Washington, D.C. and assassinate President Truman. Many in Congress suspect a Communist plot. (It was not) At the same time, the U.S. learns that a divisional sized French Force has been annihilated along Colonial Route 4 in Indochina, as Vo Nguyen Giap's Chinee trained regular troops make their dramatic appearance.

Those are the events that prompted the U.S. to support the French in Indochina. No actual funds were transferred to the French until 1952, and the majority of funds were for arming and equipping the Vietnamese Army then being trained by the French. French policy at the time recognized Laos, Cambodia, as independent states of the French Union, along with the three Vietnamese states, Tonkin, Annam, and Cochinchina, as a single polity; the State of Vietnam.




Edited by lirelou - 17 Aug 2013 at 07:09
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Aug 2013 at 17:33
Yes, it was the theory of the domino, which proved to be quite idiotic. The U.S. would be a very rich country today, and its own people as well, if it hadn't wasted so much in military adventures. I thought the U.S. would learn something with the fall of the Soviet Union: an empire that wasted so much in guns it couldn't support its economy anymore.  But it didn't.
Countries like Germany, Japan and Korea are quite rich today, and even got higher standards of living than the U.S., just because they leave the useful uncle Sam to protect them for free. Does it make sense to you?
In Latin America there was a joke generations ago that say, the only way to become developed is to make war to the U.S. and lose the war...







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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Aug 2013 at 18:13
Penguin, two points to this:

" I thought the U.S. would learn something with the fall of the Soviet Union: an empire that wasted so much in guns it couldn't support its economy anymore. But it didn't.

Countries like Germany, Japan and Korea are quite rich today, and even got higher standards of living than the U.S., just because they leave the useful uncle Sam to protect them for free. Does it make sense to you?"

First, the USSR wouldn't have reached that point of satiety had the U.S. simply folded its arms and ignored the arms race. In that light, and that only, the Reagan Administration contributed to the death of the SOviet Empire.

Yes, Germany, Japan, and South Korea got a free ride under the US umbrella for half a century. We are 24 years late in reassessing our NATO membership, and slightly less late in reassessing our role in Asia. The problem when we don't really have an empire, except in the minds of our critics, and so we don't have a central bureau that weighs and prioritizes all commitments in light of their utility to the Empire. What we have is a pseudo-empire by default. Actions we've taken in the dim past, arising from dead treaties we signed, that continue to live a life of their own simply because, well, we are too complacent to put their review on the leadership's schedule. Complacency drives more of our governance than design.

Scary thought, isn't it? So no, it does not make sense to me.

Edited by lirelou - 17 Aug 2013 at 18:16
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Aug 2013 at 18:42
Actually, I wish the U.S. change its ways from a military driven country to a creative driven society. The later is the quality I personally admire from America the most: the capability of pushing innovative projects ahead, from car manufacturing plants to rockets to the moon, and from computers to telecom, and from movies to hard science. Think how the world would be if that really happens one day. It will benefit not only Americans but everybody else as well.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Aug 2013 at 20:26
Originally posted by es_bih es_bih wrote:

The military thing though, has nothing to do with the people, or the country at this point. Its a bunch of rich people benefiting across the globe on conflicts and resolution. Big business, and the military industrial complex are so internationalized that the average American doesn't really have much to do with.


Absolutely. Americans have lose control of theirs own country, with the military establishment, made of big companies that profit with the development of new weapons. That was what Eisenhower predicted.


Edited by pinguin - 18 Aug 2013 at 20:27
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote doublejm1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Aug 2013 at 23:00
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Unlike Teddy, Jefferson was an intelligent man that deserves respect. Sure, he owned slaves, and had a black mistress (some quite normal on the day) but otherwise he was not an imperialist.

Roosevelt wrote many books and had quite the political pedigree. To say he wasn't intelligent is unfair and basically untrue. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Captain Vancouver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Aug 2013 at 00:35
Originally posted by lirelou lirelou wrote:

Penguin, two points to this:

" I thought the U.S. would learn something with the fall of the Soviet Union: an empire that wasted so much in guns it couldn't support its economy anymore. But it didn't.

Countries like Germany, Japan and Korea are quite rich today, and even got higher standards of living than the U.S., just because they leave the useful uncle Sam to protect them for free. Does it make sense to you?"

First, the USSR wouldn't have reached that point of satiety had the U.S. simply folded its arms and ignored the arms race. In that light, and that only, the Reagan Administration contributed to the death of the SOviet Empire.

Yes, Germany, Japan, and South Korea got a free ride under the US umbrella for half a century. We are 24 years late in reassessing our NATO membership, and slightly less late in reassessing our role in Asia. The problem when we don't really have an empire, except in the minds of our critics, and so we don't have a central bureau that weighs and prioritizes all commitments in light of their utility to the Empire. What we have is a pseudo-empire by default. Actions we've taken in the dim past, arising from dead treaties we signed, that continue to live a life of their own simply because, well, we are too complacent to put their review on the leadership's schedule. Complacency drives more of our governance than design.

Scary thought, isn't it? So no, it does not make sense to me.
 
Has the US really been complacent? It seems to me pretty much the reverse. The US has been very proactive in the world, intervening here and there at various degrees of effort, from CIA manipulations to outright military invasion. And I'm willing to bet you a pint of good Canadian ale that there are several hard working "central bureaus" in the state department, pentagon, and likely elsewhere, where various committments and imperial-like strategies are mulled over and analyzed to an unnerving depth.
 
Germany, S Korea, and Japan got a free ride to an extent, but only because this suited strategic US interests. A retreat to a fortress America would put the US in a vulnerable position, and so the calculation has been made that some efforts are needed to ensure a forward line much further east and west. How much effort, and where, of course are fluid issues, and can change. The Panama Canal was considered very important in the past, for example, but not such much today. Today the oil producers of the Mid-East are important, but may not be in the near future, depending on the technology of fracking, and other developments. Taiwan was once the equivalent of a treasured virgin daughter, but has since been dumped on her ass for the needs of realpolitic.
 
What I find amazing is that so many in the US insist on the idea of exceptionalism. No, no, they say, we are the shinning city on the hill, not like those grubby Europeans clutching at their empires. In fact, history makes a good case that the US is no different from similar countries that have had their turn up at bat, like Britain or France for example. Although late in the game, the US fought hard to have an empire just like the Europeans, and they got one. Today, it is not PC to say "empire" so they don't. That doesn't mean that scheming isn't going on until the wee small hours in Washington.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Aug 2013 at 16:35
Yes, yes, yes to many of your points. We still have a treaty with Taiwan which also needs to be relooked. Realpolitic? So what. The duty of a national government is to do what is (perceived to be) in the Nation's interest. I see our 'central bureaus' more as amateur tennis players on a night tennis court plagued by pesky mosquitos, spending more time swatting at what annoys them than in keeping their eyes on the ball. In 1898 we did fight to get an empire. It died an early death. Puerto Rico, Guam, and the Virgin Islands hang on, governing themselves internally and shaking is down for all they can.

What we have today is hegemony. Empires dictate to their subordinates. Hegemons have to wheel and cajole, and sometimes just suck up the idea that junior partners are going to go their own way. The bureaucracy itself it atrocious at scheming. Rank amateurs really. Most of the scheming takes place in Beltway think tanks funded by various interest groups and political parties. If they get elected, they get to drag the rest of us in on their schemes, subject of course to the vagaries of the American political process. So perhaps we are a shining city on the hill, lit up by late night vigils at all those think tanks as they scheme away.

Edited by lirelou - 19 Aug 2013 at 16:35
Phong trần mài một lưỡi gươm, Những loài giá áo túi cơm sá gì
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