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Long term effects of Mongol Invasions

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Omar al Hashim View Drop Down
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    Posted: 30 Jun 2009 at 04:46
From the period of 1000AD-1400AD there were numerous invasions of the Pakistan region by central asian powers such as the mongols. Most of these invasions had no interest in establishing an Empire or rule of law and simply used the region for loot.
 
Can it really be said that Pakistan is over these invasions? What do you consider to be the long-term cultural & infrastructure affects of this period on the region?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jul 2009 at 01:26
Well, Omar, what can be said other than unlike Afghanistan, Pakistan is a full-blown geopolitical fiction of the 20th century. The historical roles of Kabul and Herat ensured continuity for the commonality of a body polity north of the Hindu Kush. But the same can never be said of the pastiche known as Pakistan.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Prince of Zeila Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jul 2009 at 14:14
-The massive fortresses build by the Khilji Dynasty as defense against the Mongols, still standing in Pakistan.
- Many people died successfully defending that region from the Mongol armies, so the modern populations of certain cities in Pakistan might have been larger if these invasions had not occurred.
-The eventual collapse of the Khilji Dynasty opened the door for the Juggernaut Timur lane and for the next 5 centuries Afghan power diminished in the region, which would never be the same despite the brief Durrani period.
-Part of this chain-reaction is Babur's establishment of the Mughal dynasty which had a profound positive effect on Pakistan's cultural heritage and wider region in general.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jul 2009 at 21:15
Originally posted by Prince of Zeila Prince of Zeila wrote:

-The massive fortresses build by the Khilji Dynasty as defense against the Mongols, still standing in Pakistan.
- Many people died successfully defending that region from the Mongol armies, so the modern populations of certain cities in Pakistan might have been larger if these invasions had not occurred.
-The eventual collapse of the Khilji Dynasty opened the door for the Juggernaut Timur lane and for the next 5 centuries Afghan power diminished in the region, which would never be the same despite the brief Durrani period.
-Part of this chain-reaction is Babur's establishment of the Mughal dynasty which had a profound positive effect on Pakistan's cultural heritage and wider region in general.
 
Excuse me Prince, but the Khiliji Dynasty, brief and bloody as it was (1290-1321), had no notion of a Pakistan, and operated not only upon the premises of a "sultanate" but also in terms of an Afghan identity (the Ghilzais) of the Turkic. In a way, this effort to equate these Turkic people with contemporary politics is akin to finding the roots of Pakistan at Mohenjo Daro. In a way, one can say that the Khaliji and their thrust at the Delhi Sultanate more or less paved the way for their Moghul successors from Central Asia.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Prince of Zeila Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jul 2009 at 08:42
Drgonzaga
 
Isn't Omar asking what effect the Mongol invasions had on the region? specifically modern Pakistan? I don't think he asked wether there was a concept called 'Pakistan' because if he did then you would be correct, but the Khilji's did leave a architectural legacy behind during their demise, this is today part of Pakistan's heritage. My second point was about the depopulation of several cities in modern Pakistan after the Mongol invasions. My third and fourth points make it quite clear what ethnogenesis the Khilji's derived from and what sparked the rise of the Mughals. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Praetor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jul 2009 at 20:50
before I try and add something to the discussion Omar I'd like to enquire exactly what your asking.

The thread (as we all know) is entitled Long term effects of the Mongol Invasions, however (again as you know) in your opening post you list a time period (1000AD-1400AD) and claim (correctly) that during this time period there many invasions of the region now known as Pakistan by many Central Asian powers giving the Mongols as just an example Implying that the topic is about the various central Asian invaders as a whole. In the end you ask what we consider to be the long term cultural & infrastructure affects of this period on the region which is a broader question still.

I am not entirely sure what you are asking, I'm inclined to believe the last question is more what your thinking of, perhaps with an emphasis on the impact of central Asian invaders, so perhaps some combination of these different topics?

At any rate they are all very interesting questions and I look forward to adding my two cents on the matter shortly.

Regards, Praetor.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jul 2009 at 02:12
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Well, Omar, what can be said other than unlike Afghanistan, Pakistan is a full-blown geopolitical fiction of the 20th century. The historical roles of Kabul and Herat ensured continuity for the commonality of a body polity north of the Hindu Kush. But the same can never be said of the pastiche known as Pakistan.

An oft repeated discussion!
While it is true to say that Pakistan is a political creation of the 20th century it is not true to say it is a geopolitical creation. The only thing that was really added in the last century was the name. It is fair to argue that the geopolitical region includes modern indian Punjab and possibly even Delhi, but it is certainly not fair or accurate to presume that this region has shared history with UP, Bihar or any other part of the subcontinent.
In fact it is only in the last 800 years that the Pakistan region has had any major connection with the lands to the east of it, and its also possible that that is one of the effects of the central asian invasions which started a millenia ago (but that can be subject to debate)
Originally posted by Zeila Zeila wrote:

Many people died successfully defending that region from the Mongol armies, so the modern populations of certain cities in Pakistan might have been larger if these invasions had not occurred.

That works mathematically, but I'm never sure if those people hadn't died if the population really would've been greater.
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

In a way, this effort to equate these Turkic people with contemporary politics is akin to finding the roots of Pakistan at Mohenjo Daro. In a way, one can say that the Khaliji and their thrust at the Delhi Sultanate more or less paved the way for their Moghul successors from Central Asia.

Actually I'd argue that the legacy of the Delhi Sultanate and Mughal Empires is a direct contributing factor in the conflict between India & Pakistan now.
Originally posted by Praetor Praetor wrote:


I am not entirely sure what you are asking, I'm inclined to believe the last question is more what your thinking of, perhaps with an emphasis on the impact of central Asian invaders, so perhaps some combination of these different topics?

To an extent, you can answer the question anyway you want to. While the affect of the invaders who stayed & built great nations (the Mughals and Delhi Sultanate), is oft talked about, the affect of the invaders who didn't (Mongols, Timur, Ghaznavids) is not. So the question is how did these invaders, the ones that stayed, and the ones that didn't, affect modern Pakistan? Culturally, politically, economically, etc (leave out religiously as that is over discussed)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Knights Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jul 2009 at 02:47
Would it be off-topic of me to mention some environmental impacts? Embarrassed
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Omar al Hashim View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jul 2009 at 02:51
I'd say it was definitely on-topic
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jallaludin Akbar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jul 2009 at 05:13
Quote While it is true to say that Pakistan is a political creation of the 20th century it is not true to say it is a geopolitical creation. The only thing that was really added in the last century was the name. It is fair to argue that the geopolitical region includes modern indian Punjab and possibly even Delhi, but it is certainly not fair or accurate to presume that this region has shared history with UP, Bihar or any other part of the subcontinent.
In fact it is only in the last 800 years that the Pakistan region has had any major connection with the lands to the east of it, and its also possible that that is one of the effects of the central asian invasions which started a millenia ago (but that can be subject to debate)

I'd say the Indus River Valley would serve as a geopolitical identification of Pakistan?

Also, another long-term effect might be the introduction of the central asian culture and identity into the region (unless of course if they had earlier contacts and relations, which I don't really know about).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Praetor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jul 2009 at 14:57
Thanks for the clarification Omar, I'll just add my one cent(I know I promised two, I'll get back to you on that): according to so eminent a source as wiki Urdu (the official language of Pakistan) developed extensively during this period in history and is derived from a number of influences that were both local and others (such as Persian) introduced during this time frame by Invaders, such as the Delhi Sultanate.

Soon I'll go search the streets of the Internet and the archives of my mind in hopes of discovering that elusive second cent.

Regards, Praetor.


Edited by Praetor - 04 Jul 2009 at 14:58
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote N1h1lu5 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jul 2009 at 15:35
Isn't it so that the period between 1000 -1400 AD started one of the mass change in the ethnic makeup of the current Afghan-Pakistan-North west India region? The period involved a mass influx of various refugees fleeing from the invading Mongols. The period also witnessed continuous invasions (starting as raids from the Muhammud of Ghazni to the gradual stabilized rule under the Khiljis).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lance Armstrong Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jul 2009 at 22:31
The long-term effect of the Mongol invasions on Central (and partly Western) Asia overall was that these regions lost their world historic role they had since the migration period and became relative backwaters, ever more threatened in their existence by the rising gunpowder empires.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jallaludin Akbar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 2009 at 00:06
Originally posted by Lance Armstrong Lance Armstrong wrote:

The long-term effect of the Mongol invasions on Central (and partly Western) Asia overall was that these regions lost their world historic role they had since the migration period and became relative backwaters, ever more threatened in their existence by the rising gunpowder empires.

In terms of South Asia, the region still retained its cultural influence and played a major role in global trade during the 1400s. Every region still had their 'historic role' in the world though.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lance Armstrong Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 2009 at 00:45
The historic role of the Central Asian steppes as producers of some very formidable military threats to sedentary culture was with the Mongols over though. Trade shifted from the inland 'silk' route to the maritime waterways, and the ravages of the 14th century plague left many central and East Asian cities and swathes of land depopulated for centuries. World history was written elsewhere.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jallaludin Akbar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 2009 at 03:58
Central Asia was also going through a turbulant period in it's history. The Mongol invasions and plague did not leave Central Asia as a huge empty swath of land. Post-Mongol central asia brought more than a century of rule under the Chaghatay Khanate as well the start of the Timurids in the late 1300s. Prior to the Mongols were the Gaznavids, Seljuks, Kwarazmids, and others. Each of these empires played an impotant role in world history. 

But now let's get back to the topic. What do you think were the long term effects of Mongol invasions in South Asia?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sparten Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Oct 2009 at 16:43
Well one direct result is that the word for "dying" in Urdu, Hallak is suspiciously similar to Halagu.
It also destroyed Taxila and nearby areas, it would be nearly 700 years until the place rose again I(when Islamabad was made).
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sparten Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Oct 2009 at 16:46
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Well, Omar, what can be said other than unlike Afghanistan, Pakistan is a full-blown geopolitical fiction of the 20th century. The historical roles of Kabul and Herat ensured continuity for the commonality of a body polity north of the Hindu Kush. But the same can never be said of the pastiche known as Pakistan.
That is probably the least informed post in AE history. The Indus area (which is Pakistan and some of the surrounding areas) has been considered as one entity for nearly 4000 years. The name is a new one true, had to have a new name, the old one was taken; India.
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