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Lost Monkey Teeth

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    Posted: 26 Apr 2020 at 14:27
We have discussed the mystery of the South American monkey, with no fossil evidence until now. 
The species is extinct but known to scientists as a parapithecid and the same or a similar species existed in Africa. 
The unlikely find of monkey teeth in Peru suggests that 34 million YBP monkeys made their way to So America from Africa by way of the Atlantic. 
The scientists are engrossed in the unlikeliness of a monkey making such a journey but it seems more likely to me that scientists are wrong about the distance between the continents during the Oligocene or the timing of the connection.  
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/04/200409141528.htm

Four fossilized monkey teeth discovered deep in the Peruvian Amazon provide new evidence that more than one group of ancient primates journeyed across the Atlantic Ocean from Africa, according to new USC research just published in the journal Science.

The teeth are from a newly discovered species belonging to an extinct family of African primates known as parapithecids. Fossils discovered at the same site in Peru had earlier offered the first proof that South American monkeys evolved from African primates.

The monkeys are believed to have made the more than 900-mile trip on floating rafts of vegetation that broke off from coastlines, possibly during a storm.

"This is a completely unique discovery," said Erik Seiffert, the study's lead author and Professor of Clinical Integrative Anatomical Sciences at Keck School of Medicine of USC. "It shows that in addition to the New World monkeys and a group of rodents known as caviomorphs -- there is this third lineage of mammals that somehow made this very improbable transatlantic journey to get from Africa to South America."

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Apr 2020 at 13:28
interesting!  But even if it was half the distance, it still would be an amazing float.  But, at what point does several species extant in S. America change the view of how they got there? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Apr 2020 at 19:22
It seems there was no agreement on How African monkeys found their way to So America.
Science is great but this here is total speculation, for my money Lemurs and giant rodent along with bats and monkeys were carried by storms. Literally picked up and dropped down by water spouts, no Sinbad the Lemur IMHO of course.
There are animal phenomenon involving weather and sudden deposits of reptiles, fish and amphibians. 







https://www.loc.gov/everyday-mysteries/item/can-it-rain-frogs-fish-and-other-objects/Despite the cautious skepticism of the scientific community, a number of eyewitness reports strongly suggest rainfalls of frogs, fish, and other materials on occasion. For instance:

On October 23, 1947, A.D. Bajkov, a biologist with the Louisiana Department of Wildlife, was eating breakfast at a restaurant in Marksville, Louisiana when the waitress told him and his wife that fish were falling from the sky. “There were spots on Main Street, in the vicinity of the bank (a half block from the restaurant) averaging one fish per square yard. Automobiles and trucks were running over them. Fish also fell on the roofs of houses…I personally collected from Main Street and several yards on Monroe Street, a large jar of perfect specimens and preserved them in Formalin, in order to distribute them among various museums.

On June 7, 2005, thousands of frogs rained on Odzaci, a small town in northwestern Serbia. Climatologist Slavisa Ignjatovic described the phenomenon as “not very unusual” because the strong winds that accompanied the storm could have easily picked up the frogs.

At the end of February, 2010, residents of Lajamanu, a small Australian town, saw hundreds of spangled perch fall from the sky. Christine Balmer was walking home when the rain/fish started to fall. “These fish fell in their hundreds and hundreds all over the place. The locals were running around everywhere to pick them up,” she reported.

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/monkeys-raft-across-atlantic-twice-180974637/Back then, during a time known as the Late Eocene, Africa and South America were significantly closer. The span of the Atlantic Ocean between the two continents measured about 930 to 1,300 miles apart compared to the modern expanse of 1,770 miles. In addition, the buildup of glaciers in Antarctica around that time caused sea levels to drop, making the passage shorter than it is today. During this window of prehistory, the path between the continents was passable by sea.

“I think everyone kind of shakes their heads at primates rafting long or even moderate distances,” Miller says, but such events have happened at other times and are still going on today. Animals such as tenrecs and lemurs arrived on Madagascar by rafting from mainland Africa across a distance of more than 260 miles, for example, and small lizards island-hop in the Bahamas on natural rafts.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Novosedoff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Apr 2020 at 02:33
The shortest distance between S. America and Africa is about 3000 km, and there are no islands between them to replenish the food and water supplies. While from Europe it's possible to reach N.America in a few passages via Shetland Islands or Britain, Torshavn, Iceland, Greenland etc, where each passage is less than 500 km. 

It may seem that from Europe it is easier to reach N.America. But this is not the correct answer. Because in reality it all depends on what type of vessel one is using.  In fact, for an oared ship it would be easier to reach S.America from Africa because ocean currents are somehow more favorable there:

For a sailing ship driven by wind it is possible to reach America from whereever one sets off. As we all remember from school, for Columbus it took 2 months to travel to America from Canaries. For English Mayflower which set off from Plymouth the journey took the same 2 months. Nowadays for modern English cruise liners driven by power engines it takes about 7-10 days to reach N.America.

But this all still fails to capture how the monkeys could survive in their journeys Smile

PS> Btw, vikings seemingly reached N.America by the northern path, they must have used sailing ships driven by wind:


Edited by Novosedoff - 28 Apr 2020 at 02:54
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Apr 2020 at 02:49
Trade winds matter! 
Yes, Thor Heyerdahl's voyage on the Kon Tiki is the best example ever.
It's wasn't just the luck of La Nina, Heyerdahl also used light balsa for his vessel, he took amazing records of the drift and it all adds to the validity of your statements. 
A quick, great read:
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Apr 2020 at 02:57
"PS> Btw, vikings seemingly reached N.America by the northern path, they must have used sailing ships driven by wind:"

Oh yeah we discussed Anse Aux Meadows, it was like catnip! Big smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Novosedoff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Apr 2021 at 15:24
Looking at the map showing the live distribution of winds:
https://www.ventusky.com/?p=38;-7;2&l=temperature-850hpa

I am tempted to ask, was this the route how vikings got to America (see  my red curve on attached pic)?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Apr 2021 at 13:00
from what I understand, it was [Norway] to Iceland, to Greenland, to North America.  There may have been some intermediate steps in some of the islands North of Britain.

Watched fairly recently a course of the Celtic World, the professor said that "Viking" was not actually a people, but an occupation (of raiding).  She did not elaborate.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Apr 2021 at 23:33
Quote  the professor said that "Viking" was not actually a people, but an occupation (of raiding).  She did not elaborate.
That's correct. Vikings were composed of a number of ethnic types who lived under the same culture in Scandinavia.
http://www.unrv.com/forum/blog/31-caldrails-blog/
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Novosedoff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Apr 2021 at 10:45
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

from what I understand, it was [Norway] to Iceland, to Greenland, to North America.  There may have been some intermediate steps in some of the islands North of Britain.

I suspect the routes might have been liable to frequent changes based on the atmospheric factors, primarily the wind speed and direction. I've attached a map showing the typical distribution of wind speeds over the Atlantic ocean for each month of the year. The good alternative to that map would be using the live map of Ventusky's site (just click the Wind speed button on the left) 
https://www.ventusky.com/?p=55;91;2&l=wind-850hpa&t=20210428/0000 

However there is no doubt that vikings used to visit Iceland occasionally (there was not much to rob there for mature raiders, I suppose), this is a today's story on  ancient-origins.net
https://www.ancient-origins.net/news-history-archaeology/viking-rituals-0015252





Edited by Novosedoff - 28 Apr 2021 at 10:53
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Apr 2021 at 13:53
I kinda assume that it was on some level a game of connect the dots.  One hits the East Coast of Greenland, and find your way to the Eastern settlement, hug the coast until one gets to the Western Settlement.  Etc.  Of course, I don't really know, maybe they were more precise, maybe they could skip "dots".
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