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Minoan civilization originated in Anatolia (cont)

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    Posted: 27 Aug 2009 at 19:17
So, I'm kicking off the descendant of this old thread http://www.allempires.net/minoan-civilization-originated-in-anatolia_topic24005.html

To make a summary of the case:

Last year a collaboration of Universities in Turkey, Greece, Russia and Canada resulted a DNA research made on neolithic graves of Crete, Thessaly and Anatolia. The results showed the the populations that migrated to Crete around 7000 BC originated from Anatolia. This gave an end to various theories about Minoans from Egypt and the Middle east. Here comes an introduction from the original paper:

Differential Y-chromosome Anatolian Influences on the Greek and Cretan Neolithic

R. J. King 1, S. S. Özcan 2, T. Carter 3, E. Kalfoglu 2, S. Atasoy 2, C. Triantaphyllidis 4, A. Kouvatsi 4,
A. A. Lin 5, C-E. T. Chow 5, L. A. Zhivotovsky 6, M. Michalodimitrakis 7 and P. A. Underhill 5,∗

1 Department of Psychiatry and Behavioral Sciences, 401 Quarry Road, Stanford University, Stanford, CA 94305-5722

2 Institute of Forensic Sciences, Istanbul University, Istanbul, Turkey

3 Department of Anthropology, McMaster University, Chester New Hall 524, 1280 Main Street West Hamilton, L8S 4L9, Ontario, Canada

4 Department of Genetics, Development and Molecular Biology, School of Biology, Aristotle University, Thessaloniki, 54124 Thessaloniki, Greece

5 Department of Genetics, Stanford University School of Medicine, 300 Pasteur Drive, Stanford, CA 94305-5120

6 N. I. Vavilov Institute of General Genetics, Russian Academy of Sciences, 3 Gubkin Street, Moscow, 119991, Russia

7 Department of Forensic Science, University of Crete, Heraklion, Greece

Summary
The earliest Neolithic sites of Europe are located in Crete and mainland Greece. A debate persists concerning whether these farmers originated in neighboring Anatolia and the role of maritime colonization. To address these issues 171 samples were collected from areas near three known early Neolithic settlements in Greece together with 193 samples from Crete. An analysis of Y-chromosome haplogroups determined that the samples from the Greek Neolithic sites showed
strong affinity to Balkan data, while Crete shows affinity with central/Mediterranean Anatolia. Haplogroup J2b-M12 was frequent in Thessaly and Greek Macedonia while haplogroup J2a-M410 was scarce. Alternatively, Crete, like Anatolia showed a high frequency of J2a-M410 and a low frequency of J2b-M12. This dichotomy parallels archaeobotanical evidence, specifically that while bread wheat (Triticum aestivum) is known from Neolithic Anatolia, Crete and southern Italy; it is absent from earliest Neolithic Greece. The expansion time of YSTR variation for haplogroup E3b1a2-V13, in the Peloponnese was consistent with an indigenous Mesolithic presence. In turn, two distinctive haplogroups, J2a1h-M319 and J2a1b1-M92, have demographic properties consistent with Bronze Age expansions in Crete, arguably from NW/W Anatolia and Syro-Palestine, while a later mainland (Mycenaean) contribution to Crete is indicated by relative frequencies of V13.



Many people put their bricks on that thread which made it one of the gems of Allempires. Moreover, a new member back then, Pablito, is making a research on possible Caucasian speaking populations concerning those immigrants.



The research has been published and i had personally the chance in the last 6 months to visit the Cycladic art museum in Athens and the museum of Anatolian civilization in Ankara. Those experiences gave me another perspective in the time and space we call Anatolia and Aegean.

With this renewed thread, i will submit new information that i have available alongside  rich photographic material. So stay tuned! Smile


Edited by Flipper - 27 Aug 2009 at 19:19
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pablito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Sep 2009 at 16:45
So, if you kick off.......I run. I had experiencing problems to catch this new version of AllEmpires, finally I get  into.
Well Flipper, many thanks to mention my name in this new post. Is it something changed about programs or do you wish to put some connection with "Those experiences gave me another perspective in the time and space we call Anatolia and Aegean." ?
In meantime I report from R. W. Hutchinson "Prehistoric Crete" (p. 73) a interesting note: "Haghia Triada tablet 88 has A-PU followed by a pictogram for  MAN +  KA" [MAN is in english, n.d.r] and may represent a sort of worker"; I think it is not coincidental that  Ubykh and Circassian have something like -kwa as 'suffix of Nomina Agentis', same as English -er (e.g.: bak-er, foot-ball-er), and the PNCauc. root has a whole is * HirkwE 'man, person'.
Note: Transcription from website is approximate.
About the renewed thread "Stay tuned", Oh yes!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Sep 2009 at 07:57
Pablito i'm glad you're back!
The idea of this thread is to setup as much data we have available on the subject, no matter origin theory. My first post is just an intro. Unfortunately i had not much time available, the past weeks but i haven't abandoned the thread Smile

I have much data available for speculations. Specifically i reached Ankara this summer and got a lot of material. Anyway, good points for discussion will be provided!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Easternbul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Sep 2009 at 13:04
It could be true that the Minoans are from Anatolia.Many cultures were coming from Anatolia and moved into Europe or into the Caucasus. But the Aegean Coast is a special area for the Greek Culture.
In Aydin/Izmir we have many old Greek theaters etc...

Sorry for my bad English =P
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Sep 2009 at 14:43
Easternbul, as i said before i was in Turkey this summer and visited many sites and museums. I have no doubt the Minoans entered europe through Anatolia. Besides, we have clear evidence both from the DNA and the material culture, that they came from places like Catalhuyuk. I dunno if you've been in Ankara but this obsession with bulls people in Catalhuyuk had might not be a coincidence.

Besides, on your comment let me remind you that for Colin Renfrew the first Indoeuropeans were farmers from Anatolia. Maybe however the Minoans were not IE.

The main question is what kind of people they were and what kind of language they spoke. Were they IE speaking? Were they Hattics? Were they Caucasian (see Pablitos posts in the old forum)? Were they something else unrelated to the above? That's our point of speculation.

There's good evidence that very early Indoeuropeans speaking a language related to the Anatolian IE were living in Greece. However, does the same apply for the first Cretans who came 9000 years ago? Maybe the Cretans came first alongside with the people of Lemnos and were non-IE and then the "Cycladeans"/South mello-Greeks followed who might have spoken something close to Luwian.

Maybe Cretans were originating from Caucasus as Pablito said. Maybe they were the aboriginals of Thessaly who were the oldest modern human populations of the Helladic area and spoke a language unrelated to what we know today. Maybe, they were Hattian-related. Nobody knows, but it's nice to speculate with some data. Some years ago it was impossible to tell much. Now the options start to narrow.

As soon as i can i will update my first post with all data needed for someone to get a better perspective.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pablito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Oct 2009 at 01:39
What a coincidence !!!!!
CRETE
R. F. Willets {The civilization of ancient Crete, p. 52]: "In his discussion of domestic architecture at Myrtos, Warren emphasizes  that many rooms had no door and were entered from the  roofs"

ANATOLIA
C. Burney - D. M. Lang [The peoples of the hills - Ancient Ararat and Caucasus, p.19], referred to Catal Huyuk "access was by way  of the roofs and down a wooden ladder set against the wall,  a means of entry  with modern parallels in widely separeted part of the world, wherever security or climate make this appropiate".

CAUCASUS
Ian Potocki was a Polish traveller for Catherine II, during his journey in Astrakhan and Caucasus area (1797-1798), he wrote: "Kubichi is build up in a narrow dell, set in southern slope of a mountain and crowned by them. There is there 500 houses on terraces and no streets".
So, if that there had no streets,  do you need a door(-house) ?


We see three different places with common architectural feature. Coincidence ?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Oct 2009 at 11:24
Originally posted by Pablito Pablito wrote:


We see three different places with common architectural feature. Coincidence ?


Thumbs Up

I'd say no and it's not the only thing that seems like a coincidence. Even the material culture of certain sites are similar, even though there's a time span between them.

Actually, when i entered the Ankara museum of Anatolian civilization i saw a setup of a house from Catalhuyuk and without knowing its origin or anything about it, I said to my fiance "This looks minoan". It is another thing to read something and another thing to realize some things randomly while seeing it!

Pablito...I'm gonna come back to you soon about your PM. Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pablito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Oct 2009 at 01:10
Among Caucasian languages, there is one a little special: Khinalug; his classification as part of Lezgian group is partly disputed. Anyway, I was attracted from this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uekc_uIPP0Q
At 00:09:18
it appears this translation ~ explanation
"The first born male baby in the family has his hairs plaited until his certain age. One of other traditions used by Khinalug people until the present day is to keep a boys until he is 7-years-old".
Compared to Akrotiri - boxing children in Minoan frescoes, the coincidence (at least) are 51-49.
In my point of view, this kind of hairdress is (a few) unusual in Near Eastern civilizations.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pablito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Mar 2010 at 23:59
Flipper, no one is interested anymore in Minoan civilization?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Mar 2010 at 07:18
Originally posted by Pablito Pablito wrote:

Flipper, no one is interested anymore in Minoan civilization?



Pablito, i have left this thread for some time since i had no time to deal with it. It's not dead nor has the interest gone.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Mar 2010 at 08:19
Just to kick off again Pablito.

I remembered you mentioned the dubious origins of qa-si-re-u (basileus), like many others have done in the past. I'm afraid though they have missed the obvious. qa-si-re-u is not a case of pre-Greek languages.

Basically, qa-si-re-u is not pronounced as we see it, but in proto Greek it must have been gwasileus or gwatileus...

It is known that Greek turned in many cases the PIE gw- to b- so that would fit the case (gwous -> bous, gwltur - > blossuros, gwye -> bios).

Basileus has it roots on the PIE gwal (strong/ruler) and belos (strong) -> belteros (better). The same is proved in Phrygian (which gives many answers to "untraced" primitive greek words) where you have balen (also the personal name Balenios as equavalent to Basilios) meaning King and bas being the name of an important god (puntas bas = pontic bas, maybe poseidon, the sea ruler). In germanic you have walter (rule), in sanskrit you have balam (power, strength), Lithuanian valdyti (rule), slavic Vlado (rule), Tocharian walo (King), Lydian qalmlus (King -> gwalmlus?), Thracian name Balintas (protarchontas Balintas = First ruler [signifying greatest] Balintas).

So, since we examined this word previously, i would suggest that qa-si-re-u does not belong to the list of words of unknown origin in Greek and should therefore not be connected with Minoan, Aegean or Thessalomacedonian neolithic cultures.




Edited by Flipper - 06 Mar 2010 at 10:28
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pablito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Mar 2010 at 13:49
Originally posted by Flipper Flipper wrote:

Just to kick off again Pablito.
I am glad to know you come back to AE (cold and winter is gone).

I remembered you mentioned the dubious origins of qa-si-re-u (basileus), like many others have done in the past. I'm afraid though they have missed the obvious. qa-si-re-u is not a case of pre-Greek languages.

Basically, qa-si-re-u is not pronounced as we see it, but in proto Greek it must have been gwasileus or gwatileus...

It is known that Greek turned in many cases the PIE gw- to b- so that would fit the case (gwous -> bous, gwltur - > blossuros, gwye -> bio
The phonological feature is correct.

Basileus has it roots on the PIE gwal (strong/ruler) and belos (strong) -> belteros (better). The same is proved in Phrygian (which gives many answers to "untraced" primitive greek words) where you have balen (also the personal name Balenios as equavalent to Basilios) meaning King and bas being the name of an important god (puntas bas = pontic bas, maybe poseidon, the sea ruler). In germanic you have walter (rule), in sanskrit you have balam (power, strength), Lithuanian valdyti (rule), slavic Vlado (rule), Tocharian walo (King), Lydian qalmlus (King -> gwalmlus?), Thracian name Balintas (protarchontas Balintas = First ruler [signifying greatest] Balintas).
Sorry Flipper, I am a little bit caution with. About Bal  I noticed also in Hebrew Ba'al, Ba:'a:l  'possess, govern', also '(I) lord, (II) husband, (III) owner, possessor', hence the Cannanean god Baal , as loanword in Greek balle:n.
The reason why scholar tend to exclude this lexeme from an IE root is: the ending in -eus (see Beekes in IEED, Pre-Greek loans in Greek [PDF]), also , they did not found any convincingly IE root (as you wrote)
Do not forget that Brahmi and Kharoshthi scripts are based  on  Semitic writing system, as well as  Greek alphabet (cf.  alpha, beta, gamma, delta,  etc......... with original  Hebrew/Phoenician  in aleph, bet', gimel, dalet, etc.........).
May you (dis)agree or not, but a Circassian gwasa/gwasha 'princess' compared to (Pre-)Greek qa-si-re-u ~ gwa-si-re-u (I think) is not bad at all.
Anyway , there is in Carlier QA-SI-RE-U et QA-SI-RE-WI-JA (in French) a nice  PDF, available for free in Aegeum 1 (Uni. of Liege ,  Belgium). From  my research paper and Carlier's  description, gwasireu ~ basileus originally was a (wo)man of duty (as surveillant) rather than a title.

So, since we examined this word previously, i would suggest that qa-si-re-u does not belong to the list of words of unknown origin in Greek and should therefore not be connected with Minoan, Aegean or Thessalomacedonian neolithic cultures.
Possible.

P.S: I send to you a PM, I guess you were very busy.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Mar 2010 at 17:59
If what you mentioned about Bal- is true then i think we have a root going back to prehistory or something. It is interesting that there's a IE, Semitic and NW Caucasian root for ruler, king, governor.

The point is that it is definitely not a word of untraceable origin like many have suggested. Plus, it can be a reminder that Myc and Minoan (?) qa- can be gwa- and ga as well.

Now, about -eus i don't know what to say really since in Myc. times you can't really set -eus as a name suffix of people with specific origin. -Eus became later -eas or -as and could be fully compatible with names of surrounding IE people.

For example I found just with a random lookup a Thracian guy with the name Neikeus. -eus does not mean non IE in any sense e.g iereus, grapheus etc. It is a very common ending in names and epithets that are 100% IE. I've seen Beekes comments in general and he has many interesting points, but i can't say that there are no convincing roots, especially if you look in the phonology between IE languages.

Just the example of Phrygian Bas is speaking by itself...Bas exists as well as a term in Greek and means exactly "king/ruler". Phr. Puntas Bas (which is used amongst a list of gods) means literary king of the pontos (sea).

Don't forget that often when studying words, people might get lost in a chaotic universe of cognates and similar phonetics. In the past many words have been quickly misplaced.

PS; Did you send me in the old site? In that case it was why i haven't seen it.




Edited by Flipper - 06 Mar 2010 at 18:00
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Mar 2010 at 18:05
Originally posted by Pablito Pablito wrote:

What a coincidence !!!!!
CRETE
R. F. Willets {The civilization of ancient Crete, p. 52]: "In his discussion of domestic architecture at Myrtos, Warren emphasizes  that many rooms had no door and were entered from the  roofs"


When you were writing this were you thinking something like this below (it is from Catalhoyuk)?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pablito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Mar 2010 at 22:14
Flipper, [about your picture] yep ! [popular English form for:  yes]
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Mar 2010 at 10:38
Originally posted by Pablito Pablito wrote:


In the inscription KO Za 1, in the middle of we read :
TU-RU-SA  DU-314-RE  I-DA
The two underlined words has a possible explanation with  TU-RU-SA as the same in Urartean 'a vessel and a capacity measure for liquids' and Rutul (Cauc. language) turuch  'scoop', the second one I linked with Pre-Greek  drosos  'dew'  and a Dargwa (Cauc. Language) counterpart dusre 'rain [in PLURAL form]'; substancialy., in both cases -  'dew'  and  'rain' -   are words for 'liquids', and that it make it the perspective more reliable.
So, we have : liquid(s) and its capacity measurement.



Pablito sorry i completely missed you message, so i'm bringing it up here.

KO Za 1 says:

A-TA-I-A301-WA-JA . TU-RU-SA . DU-PE2-RE . I-DA-A . U-NA-KA-NA-SI. I-PI-NA-MA. SI-RU-TE

Owens gave the following possible translation:

Introductory Term, X,X Ida you give victory Iphinama, destroyer.

Of course as long as we cannot decipher a long range of inscriptions in Linear A we can never be sure and we can only speculate. Speculations are not bad though, because we do build our own mind maps that might give us a breakthrough one day.

The first time i saw the term I-DA i could only think either of the Cretan "what" which differs from any other Greek dialect and is "ida" (instead of "ti") or the mountain of course, I-DA.

Based on Linear B grammar which I am familiar with, the form I-DA-A corresponds (always based on Linear B) the term Ιδαία (fem. form of someone that comes from IDA).

Others have suggested that TU-RU-SA is the city of Tarsus, but it does not give any significant help.

This is all i know about KO Za1 Pablito. I can't agree or disagree with anything if i don't have several interpretations across several inscriptions that would verify or not your and others suggestion.

Now, about your suggestion. I have not seen the tablet itself on photo. Does it have some symbols indicating measurements or something like other tablets have totals?




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Mar 2010 at 13:54
Here is a good contrapuntal dance apart for the linguistic happenstances:
 
 
And then there is this snippet:
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Mar 2010 at 15:41
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Here is a good contrapuntal dance apart for the linguistic happenstances:
 
 
And then there is this snippet:


But that is out of the question nowadays Dr. That story is long gone.

The homeland is Anatolia and the question is the linguistic background. Were they people related to the Hatti, the Hurrians, someone else?

That is what Pablito is examining in this case.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Mar 2010 at 19:02
Well if one is going to surmise on the Chalcolithic within the context of "Megalithic Cultures" dwelling entirly upon either the Hurrian or the Hatti (both intruders from the North and East does limit the horizon somewhat and blurs all that went before in Europe and North Africa as well. In a sense we are confronting a polemic well known in the study of the tholoi. Why must the Minoan be a reflection of either the Hurrian or the Hatti? After all Catal Huyuk was long gone by 3rd millenium.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Mar 2010 at 19:14
My bad, i think i was not clear. Of course there must not be a reflection on Hurrian or Hatti. I just happened to mention them. Basically, i see the possibility of a language isolate as very probable if we look to it linguistically. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pablito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Mar 2010 at 01:28
Flipper is perfectly all rightClap. When Cyrus Gordon & Co. tried to decipher and read Linear A inscriptions, the result was dismissed among scholars. The (HAM-)SEMITICS theory failed.
Start with principle that Semitic writing system is basically pure consonantal (as Hebrew and Arabic , only Ethiopian is syllabic [this is another chapter]), like Egyptian. Cuneiform writing system was a combination of  CVC or CV or VC  or VCV (C= consonant, V= vowel).
It is not the case of Linear A, which syllabic structure was 'pure'  CV only (ta, da , ma , mi, etc............). Linear B decipherment, well, we know, it was easy at all : missing letters, unreliable writing system, mispelled words, etc............
This feature is typical from language(s) with  no proper writing system.
So, an Anatolian origin of 'Minoan' people(s) and language(s) is more likely. Further, as  me and Flipper wrote in this forum, we try to trace back any aspect of this civilization (architecture, tomb and burials, ornaments, etc............).
DrGonzaga: Why not a common origin with Hurro-Urartian and Hattic counterpart ? Also ProtoCaucasian ? 
See old Forum and follow the thread.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Mar 2010 at 14:44
What caught recently my attention is that a small group of Greek archeologists released a study that said Minoans were Semitic. The study was immediately rejected by the Greek archeological institute + received heavy criticism by all other scholars. The question was how they came to that conclusion when less than a year ago several universities, including the Aristotelian university of Thessaloniki, published the comparison of DNA results  between Crete and several sites in Anatolia. The answer of this group was that they were unware of it Confused. No comments..........

The study was dismissed of course and i would ask "Which planet do you live on"?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pablito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Mar 2010 at 00:10
Flipper, DrGonzaga is all right in small percentage, not relevant either: borrowings / loanwords. I have an Akkadian dictionary with Hurrian loawords, also a Hurrian dictionary with Akkadian loanwords. In both cases does not mean they belonging to the same family.  That's due to 'language in contact'.  Moreover, Hurrian (and Urartian) and Akkadian/Semitics  languages had completely different  morphology and synatax.
DrGonzaga, mind!  Keep separate languages genetically related from cross-linguistic area.
So, Crete was in a strategic position back in the time; between three continent and different related / unrelated peoples, may it share some common feature with continental neighbour; genetic inheritance is more hard to prove it.
My research paper clearly shown to me some Semitic loanwords in Pre-Greek language, with different rules  far from genetically related languages.
Isn't it Flipper ?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Mar 2010 at 02:55
Well, Pablito, if your peruse my "library" of posts you will gather that I do not take kindly to the introuduction of proto- anything even in biology and--perhaps due to trauma in my early college years--within linguistics I find its usage abominable. The one thing that stands out in the ancient history of the Mediterranean--particularly in the late Chalcolithic--was the persistence of land and riverine transport within Anatolia proper. Now what has always fascinated me in terms of the ancient myth cycles is the prominence of the Phoenician element in the earliest stratas. In this respect, and keeping in mind contemporary Hellenic sensibilities, I personally find the surmises of Cyrus Gordon (Forgotten Scripts, 1982) more in tune with the facts of the early Mediterranean world as far as navigation is concerned. However, keep in mind that "original" peoples do not simply disappear upon the advent of new groups. Given the fact that Crete was already populated by the early Chalcolitichic we really have to suspend judgements premises only upon linguistic suppositions drawn upon the basis of later migrants.  If the myth cycles tell us anything it comes from the clues of ancestry intruding upon an already urbanized world, from which the Greeks shaped their own "cultural" heritage.

Edited by drgonzaga - 09 Mar 2010 at 02:56
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pablito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Mar 2010 at 19:34
DrGonzaga, everybody is attracted from Phoenician civilization, but they were not the  only civilized people in the East Miditerranean coastal area. Actually the Cretans were the best competitors. Cretan artfacts are found also in Alalakh, Ugarit, etc...
If 'Minoan language' belonging to the Ham-Sem family, shall we not to write about it (simply because the problem is solved already).  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Mar 2010 at 22:51
To get back to the subject...

Pablito, from the Linear A documents you've seen, have you been able to collect any grammatical patterns?

I mean have you been able to collect syllable-endings that show verb tenses, gender changes, singular-plurar forms etc that could match any Caucasian languages?

Also, does the word po-to ku-ro (grand total probably) have any similarity with any language you've seen? po-to is probably what came to be the Greek poso which has no equivalent in PIE.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pablito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Mar 2010 at 20:37
Pablito, from the Linear A documents you've seen, have you been able to collect any grammatical patterns?
¶ Not yet (see below)

I mean have you been able to collect syllable-endings that show verb tenses, gender changes, singular-plurar forms etc that could match any Caucasian languages?
 ¶ I am concentrated now on Pre-Greek and its relationship with PNCauc. and Hurro-Urart. I also think that is the right way to get into Linear A inscriptions. Despite  Hesychius was misunderstood, he was  is a good source of information, like NI/fici = nikuleon 'a kind of fig', and so on.
The only aspect I see more likely is JA-SA-SA-RA(-ME, -MA-NA), and JA- it recall Eastern Caucasian languages j- as 2nd animate class marker (feminine), related to a goddess is highly probable, e.g: w-ac [wats] 'brother' vs. j-ac [ jats] 'sister'. Briefly: FEM.+ Goddess name(+suffix/case). And this feature is uncommon to IE languages.
At the moment I want see all regular phonological rules, my second step will be in  morphology-syntax.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Mar 2010 at 21:40
Remind me please about Hesychius and what you mean. Is there a word nikuleon?

Ja forms feminine class markers in Linear B as well e.g i-je-re-ja. But anyway, my point is that so far we know the key has been the suffixes. The etymological and phonological studies are needed but can result an endless loop.

About Ja-sa-sa-ra-me, how do you see on the connection with Ishtar, Astarte etc?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pablito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Mar 2010 at 00:59
Originally posted by Flipper Flipper wrote:

Remind me please about Hesychius and what you mean. Is there a word nikuleon?
About Hesychius "Hesychius of Alexandria (῾Ησύχιος ὁ Ἀλεξανδρεύς), a grammarian who flourished probably in the 5th century CE, compiled the richest lexicon of unusual and obscure Greek words that has survived [..] Hesychius is important, not only for Greek philology but also for studying lost languages and obscure dialects (such as Thracian and the ancient Macedonian language) and in reconstructing Proto-Indo-European" (source: Wikipedia > Hesychius). Furnee and Beekes restored Hesychius glosses, otherwise ignored from Classicist.
Neumann red a gloss from Hesychius "Ermonaks d'en glo:ttais Kre:tikais suko:n gene: anagrap'ei amadea kai nikulea", and this NI with logogramm of fig was red as nikulea, -on 'a kind of fig'. This discovery is veeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeery old.

Ja forms feminine class markers in Linear B as well e.g i-je-re-ja. But anyway, my point is that so far we know the key has been the suffixes. The etymological and phonological studies are needed but can result an endless loop.
Endless loop ? Not really. Perhaps boring. As we know, Universities do not accept any result without good explanation.
About Ja-sa-sa-ra-me, how do you see on the connection with Ishtar, Astarte etc?
Ja-sa-sa-ra was just one of dozen 'Mother Goddess(es)' found in Mediterranean sea, Anatolia, Levantine area. Pre-Islamic & Pre-Christian Caucasus was a matriarchal society, same as Cretans [Minoans] and  Hattic. A nice book is "Greeks and Pre-Greeks"  of Margalit Finkelberg. So, Jasasara  was just one (or the only one [?]) 'Mother Goddess'. The reason is very simple: it was the symbolization cult of Mother Earth and its fertility. Also 'woman' is associated with 'life' in many languages around world.
(What a coincidence: Green party, ambientalist, environmentalist, also Jesus Christa (f.) !!!!  - Jasasara coming back ?).

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Mar 2010 at 09:57
Pablito if i didn't know who Hesychius was I would not be worthy of having a site for ancient languages Smile

The problem is that I didn't remember Hesychius listing such a word and after checking again, I think you're not referring to Hesychius. I never found such an entry on Cretan. I went though every record regarding figs and I found nada. Is it possible that it was someone else writing that?

About mrs Finkelberg...I have the book Smile. If you see on my site about the early history of Greek, she's one of the main sources. Really good book!

Now, about the mother Goddess... I think the main name of the great mother is Gaia, Ge, Ga, Da, De-meter, Da-mater and its dialectical forms. Ge as we mainly call it nowadays is a pre-Greek word since it has no IE equivalent. However it has a phonetic similarity to Sumerian Ki which means "earth".

If Jasasarame is the Ishtar equivalent then it is not exactly the mother of everything we're talking about, but the fertility goddess. There's a slight difference between those two since Gaia is both fertility goddess and mother of everything, while Ishtar, Inana, Aphrodite are not mothers of gods and everything but only fertility.




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