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Modern Art???

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    Posted: 18 Mar 2014 at 11:57
I don't regard myself as a Philistine, but I just don't get Modern Art.
 
If I go to a gallery (which I do rarely) and I see a painting of a person or a scene, it doesn't need interpretation, it is what it is, and I can appreciate the work that has gone into it, the skill.
 
But then, moving on to Modern Art. Swirls of colour with no relationship to anything, in my mind, and then I read the artists explanation, something like, "Mans approach to the future of art, from an 18th century perspective and with the Renaissance influence", or some such blurb.
 
We've all seen "paintings" done by Chimpanzees for example, and these are no better.
 
 
Are these people serious?
 
Is modern art just a great big con?
 
And how about the people who "Ooh" and "Ah" over it?
 
Some of this stuff sells for tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars. Gimme a break!
 
What do others think?
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Mar 2014 at 12:12
"Modern" art is actually quite old already. And some of this art has some value. Picasso's Guernica, for instance, is interesting.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Mar 2014 at 14:45
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

I don't regard myself as a Philistine, but I just don't get Modern Art.
 
If I go to a gallery (which I do rarely) and I see a painting of a person or a scene, it doesn't need interpretation, it is what it is, and I can appreciate the work that has gone into it, the skill.
 
But then, moving on to Modern Art. Swirls of colour with no relationship to anything, in my mind, and then I read the artists explanation, something like, "Mans approach to the future of art, from an 18th century perspective and with the Renaissance influence", or some such blurb.
 
We've all seen "paintings" done by Chimpanzees for example, and these are no better.
 
 
Are these people serious?
 
Is modern art just a great big con?
 
And how about the people who "Ooh" and "Ah" over it?
 
Some of this stuff sells for tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars. Gimme a break!
 
What do others think?
 


I hear ya' and i couldn't agree more! What i can't wrap my brain around is what is it these artists know, why does most of their crap sell for such an astronomical amount and how on earth do i cash in on all on the suckers out there? Maybe the sell is in the BS pitch?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Mar 2014 at 05:10
I don't realllike modern art myself, with the exception of photography. It's just not my taste
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Mar 2014 at 10:22
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

"Modern" art is actually quite old already. And some of this art has some value. Picasso's Guernica, for instance, is interesting.
 
In what way interesting?
 
Each to his own I suppose.
 
But you have to admit that some of these creations look as though the artists are on LSD.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote literaryClarity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Sep 2014 at 12:09
That is the correct statement.  Many of the artists were indeed on drugs when they created their works.  They were in their own little world when they became inspired to just do something.  I suppose that is the lure of modern art.  It is like fashion and once you get into it you become an avid fan not really being able to tell why it is you seek the next season's offerings except for the fact that it would be easy to spot and that there is always something new coming out.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Sep 2014 at 12:54
Originally posted by literaryClarity literaryClarity wrote:

That is the correct statement.  Many of the artists were indeed on drugs when they created their works.  They were in their own little world when they became inspired to just do something.  I suppose that is the lure of modern art.  It is like fashion and once you get into it you become an avid fan not really being able to tell why it is you seek the next season's offerings except for the fact that it would be easy to spot and that there is always something new coming out.



I agree, either on drugs or insane, who else chops of their ears?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Mar 2015 at 16:24
Artists paint for themselves, they have to. In the classical world art was like special effects. You saw heroes, fine women, important biblical events and battles just imagine the entertainment value.
Who can compete with Van Gogh's "Starry Night" or Carrivaggio's David with Goliath's enormous decapitated head. Viewers were more than moved and they finally had all this brilliant imagery to go with the stories and myths. Real enough to believe in the scenes of hellfire and moved to penance at the sight of the suffering Messiah.
Its been suggested that Dahli created unusual striking worlds that would move people in such ways and he was good at it but no one believed in those worlds. Great works of classic art are so highly valued its as if they still posses the power to touch our imagination. So artist became less tied to the styles of classical art and looked for novel forms of expression in paint.

Now its possible to recreate entire worlds for movie sets (Prometheus was amazing). We just aren't so easily astounded. Latest technique -Wu Wei, the Art of Not trying.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/16/science/a-meditation-on-the-art-of-not-trying.html?_r=0

Edited by Vanuatu - 05 Mar 2015 at 00:33
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Apr 2015 at 05:50
I would suggest the Scientific American: Mind, March/April 2015 issue. pp 23 "Warped Perception:  The Work of Famous Painters reveals how visual and neural pathologies can shape great art."  The artists mentioned are: Francis Bacon, Edgar Degas, El Greco, Rembrandt and William Utermohlen.  So obviously, one cannot just dismiss them all as crazy abstract impressionists.  Most are earlier than abstract impressionism.  Artists often see reality from a different perspective than "normal" people do and as a relatively "normal" person, I enjoy art as a window into their different perspectives, whether those perspectives have a diagnosis or not.  It is good to get a second (and discerning) opinion on reality.

However, whereas I can appreciate abstract impressionism, there is a lot to be said about plain representational art.  Abstract impressionism is often conceptual. Representational art, however, really shows off whether the artist has good hand/eye control.  Does their eye see things accurately, and does their hands produce a corresponding effect? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Apr 2015 at 01:48
"Warped Perception" good point, maybe that's why a huge percentage of NASA employees are dyslexic.

In reading some papers from academia edu I came across an idea for studying synesthesia.
The phenomenon can result in physical sensations as a reaction to color or conversely certain sounds or feelings bring color to mind. It requires some silence and focus of the mind to appreciate these ethereal joys trough art. Some might liken this to the Morphogenetic field.

Dictionary.com

synesthesia
/syn·es·the·sia/ (sin″es-the´zhah)
1. a secondary sensation accompanying an actual perception.

2. a dysesthesia in which a stimulus of one sense is perceived as sensation of a different sense, as when a sound produces a sensation of color.

3. a dysesthesia in which a stimulus to one part of the body is experienced as being at a different location.

Scientific American huh? Good to know from dose who knows.
I favor National Geographic
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 May 2015 at 13:39
I don't really believe in "warped perception."  Except for the perception of mass murderers or so forth.

Does someone blind have a "warped perception?"  I don't think so, every disadvantage in life can also be an advantage.  Now if they become a musician or develop some other audio skill (Ray Charles, Stevie Wonder), or if they learn how to echo-locate with clicks, then they have done something amazing.  Of course, not everyone comes to find such a niche, but that is true of any "ability" (and in that I include disability as well). 
I think Mahler was an synesthetic, wouldn't it be magnificent to "see" a symphony?  There is a guy who can't see color, how had something made that when he pointed it at something (through centering it
in his glasses??), a sound was made that corresponded with the color it was aimed at.  I don't need it, but it sounded really cool.  This was mentioned on NPR.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 May 2015 at 03:39
Maybe its a remnant of the reptile brain. Could it also work in reverse? An animal is hungry a color comes to mind, its the color of the green fig that is eatable. Or The sight of red fruit causes pain in the gut it's poisonous to the reptile.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 May 2015 at 10:06
what is the "it" you are talking about?
What do you mean work in reverse?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 May 2015 at 14:29
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

what is the "it" you are talking about?
What do you mean work in reverse?


It Is-
synesthesia
/syn·es·the·sia/ (sin″es-the´zhah)
1. a secondary sensation accompanying an actual perception.


You mention ability, rather than indicating an attraction synesthesia may trigger a repulsion.

Remember the studies with orphan monkeys and wire feeding mothers vs cloth non feeding mothers? The comfort of the cloth made the monkeys prefer cloth mother even though they couldn't have milk. They were repulsed by wire mother even though they got milk. Harlow's studies for Dependency in Monkeys.


Synesthesia produced counterintuitive behavior because of the comfort association with actual perception of a soft body. Certainly they had to eat but spent as little time as possible away from cloth mother. They also ran to cloth mother as a source of comfort when they were purposely frightened. Stimuli triggered instinct that pushed them towards , affection? Comfort?

"Animals either know instinctively what not to eat or they learn from experience by trying and learning or they are taught or all of these, depending on the animal.
Regarding instinct, let's look at the Cape Buffalo first for example. They know instinctively that grass is edible and that it tastes good. They are unlikely to try eating leaves or anything else unless starving, in which case they will often attempt to eat plants that wouldn't normally appeal to them and can die from attempting to eat poisonous plants."

I'm saying these are examples of Synesthesia in nature as a repellent and an attraction.

http://www.quora.com/How-do-animals-in-the-wild-avoid-eating-anything-poisonoushttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OrNBEhzjg8I

Edited by Vanuatu - 10 May 2015 at 15:50
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 May 2015 at 14:39
I am not sure that hunger is a sense that, like what we usually think of as senses and if it is not that kind of sense, then can have a synesthetic accompaniment?

I think that your monkey example shows how anthropologists can get off on being cruel to monkeys.

To me the monkeys don't really show counterintuitive behavior, they adapt, using wire mother for food, and cloth mother for comfort.  Of course, I haven't read the studies, so I don't really know what the conclusions are.  I just think that the word synesthesia is not exactly the right word for the situation.

But it makes me think of those silver foxes, and of dogs.  Silver foxes, when they start getting friendly towards man, change in appearance and behavior.  In appearance, it sounds like they diversify, and become more individualistic in both appearance and behavior.  In behavior, besides becoming more individualistic, they become more playful, open, receptive.  Whereas most animals would look on human behavior, and get the heck out of there, my mom's little dog is trusting and receptive, watching everything, but not really comprehending.  looking at the dog, I think of her saying to herself, "whatever he is doing! is fascinating! but I have no idea what it is!"  Of course, people think that they are indispensable to their pets, and I may be operating under that delusion as well.  But my point is, is that the domesticated animals instincts have been rewired so that erratic or unexplained behavior (which almost everything that a person does around a dog), is not alarming.  Whether the animal is accurately perceiving the world or not, I don't know, it seems like the animal is going a lot more on "blind" trust within the human world, on the other hand, most people seem pretty decent to their pets, although we probably understand them, less than they understand us.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 May 2015 at 22:44
http://www.mixsig.net/about/types.php

Couple of examples where touch-emotion or emotion- touch creates synesthesia. Take a look.

Science can be brutal, yes monkey adapts. What's the mechanism? Is synesthesia a remnant and adaptation of instinctive queues for survival?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 May 2015 at 02:55
The monkey has a synthesis with the cloth mother. A monkey needs the universal attachment but its still a synethesis. This was studied with interest in 1860-1930 ish.
The more psychiatry and neurology advanced the more humans become subjects like orphan monkeys and Giordano Bruno.

http://www.theassc.org/files/assc/2346.pdf

"4.14 Synesthesia is emotional. The experience is accompanied by a sense of certitude (the "this is it" feeling) and a conviction that what synesthetes perceive is real and valid. This accompaniment brings to mind that transitory change in self-awareness that is known as ecstasy. Ecstasy is any passion by which the thoughts are absorbed and in which the mind is for a time lost. In The Varieties of Religious Experience, William James spoke of ecstasy's four qualities of ineffability, passivity, noesis, and transience. These same qualities are shared by synesthesia.
4.15 "Noetic" is a rarely used word that comes from the Greek nous, meaning intellect or understanding. It gives us our world "knowledge," and means knowledge that is experienced directly, an illumination that is accompanied by a feeling of certitude. James spoke of a "noetic sense of truth" and the sense of authority that these states impart.
Although so similar to states of feeling, mystical states seem to those who experience them to be also states of knowledge. They are states of insight into depths of truth unplumbed by the discursive intellect. They are illuminations, revelations, full of significance and importance, all inarticulate though they remain; and as a rule they carry with them a curious sense of authority for after-time"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 May 2015 at 16:01
I wonder if you are being mislead by the common resemblance of the words "synthesis" and "synesthesia"?  Synthesis comes from syn+thesis, where synesthesia comes from syn+aesthesis (sp?), as in aesthetics or anesthetic.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 May 2015 at 22:05
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

I wonder if you are being mislead by the common resemblance of the words "synthesis" and "synesthesia"?  Synthesis comes from syn+thesis, where synesthesia comes from syn+aesthesis (sp?), as in aesthetics or anesthetic.



Short answer ...No. I used synthesis in the same paragraph, but not as a substitute.
syn·the·sis
   (n. pl. syn·the·ses (-sēz′)
1.
a. The combining of separate elements or substances to form a coherent whole.

In Sociobiology animals such as geese become attached to non animal parents. Synthesis occurs through sound, vision and eating patterns. Socially transmitted behaviors have been observed in primates. Seagulls have synthesized with humans to the point where they are developing abnormal legs due to eating so much human refuse. The use of the word is not restricted to DNA coding.

Synesthesia-

"KEYWORDS: consciousness, emotion, perception, subjectivity, synesthesia, neurology.
ABSTRACT: Synesthesia (Greek, syn = together + aisthesis = perception) is the involuntary physical experience of a cross-modal association. That is, the stimulation of one sensory modality reliably causes a perception in one or more different senses. Its phenomenology clearly distinguishes it from metaphor, literary tropes, sound symbolism, and deliberate artistic contrivances that sometimes employ the term "synesthesia" to describe their multisensory joinings. An unexpected demographic and cognitive constellation co-occurs with synesthesia: females and non-right-handers predominate, the trait is familial, and memory is superior while math and spatial navigation suffer. Synesthesia appears to be a left-hemisphere function that is not cortical in the conventional sense. The hippocampus is critical for its experience. Five clinical features comprise its diagnosis. Synesthesia is "abnormal" only in being statistically rare. It is, in fact, a normal brain process that is prematurely displayed to consciousness in a minority of individuals."

Animals are subject to synesthesia, I asked what is the mechanism? Why does the monkey want to touch the cloth mother? He instinctively eats because he is hungry. Why does he want the cloth? Synesthesia is also emotional. For instance in cases of letter/color visualizations is synesthesia a kind of "grazing" of neurons? Is this "multisensory joining" an exploration of possibly beneficial connections for life?

Edited by Vanuatu - 12 May 2015 at 23:44
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 May 2015 at 02:08
http://www.theassc.org/files/assc/2346.pdf

"5.5 By analogy, the consensual image we see on the screen when watching television is the terminal stage of the broadcast. Someone able to intercept the transmission anywhere between the studio camera and the TV screen would be like a synesthete, sampling the transmission before it reached the screen, fully elaborated. Presumably, their experience would be different from those of us viewing the screen. We can similarly propose and test the concept of synesthesia as the premature display of a normal cognitive process.
5.6 This implies that we are all synesthetic, and that only a handful of people are consciously aware of the holistic nature of perception."

So "Synesthesia" in Cytowic's view has its place near the trunk of the evolutionary tree.
Everyone must have Synesthesia. You correctly note this orphan(ed) monkey is in a completely unnatural surrounding. His stomach forces him to eat but how does he "know" that he needs comfort?

Human children die without arms to hold them. Not all species need to be held. Monkeys certainly do need touch and his attachment to the cloth is the "this is it" connection.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 May 2015 at 07:45
I think that it is through the idea of "monkeyness" that the monkey knows he needs comfort.  ;)
comfort is part of the essence of being a monkey.  Now what is the mechanism?  Well, I am a little uneasy about that question, I think that the interaction of an organism with its environment, is never completely, adequately explained by a mechanistic model.  A mechanistic model can be useful, but ultimately it simplifies and thus does violence to the "subject" (the 'other').

I wonder whether people who like to mess with monkeys in such ways are a little short on empathy.
I'm not saying that they don't learn interesting stuff.  I think that some animal testing is the lesser of evils compared to a, say, a plague, and therefore by the needs of the moment "justified."  It is one thing to expose poor monkeys to, say, e-bola, so that one can learn how to prevent it in humans.  It is another, to ruin a perfectly happy monkey-life just to see what will happen.  Yes, you do get interesting data, just as you can get interesting data by testing cosmetics on the eyes of rabbits.  But I cannot help but think that people who do that work, lack at least a certain kind of empathy.

You cite a lot of stuff on synesthesia, and I must confess I am a little overloaded by it all.  It is interesting, but hard for me to absorb. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote literaryClarity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 May 2015 at 20:48
Can one elaborate on human children die without arms to hold them.
http://hwyst.hangzhou.com.cn/wmyzh/content/2013-10/09/content_4920423.htm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 May 2015 at 00:14
literaryClarity asked ; "Can one elaborate on human children die without arms to hold them."

Its been observed especially in orphanages most commonly in war time, that children die for lack of touch. They may be fed, cleaned and otherwise looked after but with no coddling, touching, eye contact or talking an infant will cease to smile. All attempts to verbalize will wind down and the infant dies.
Isolation is utterly destructive to early human development. People began to understand the Attachment theory after the work of Harry Harlow in 1930. It was believed that mothers should return to work right after childbirth. Attachment theory helped to stress the importance of early parental bonding.

"DEATH AS A CONDITION OF LOSS OF LOVE

     Contact Comfort, be it negative or positive, so long as it is in the form of physical and emotional contact is in fact a necessity for the continuation of life. For human beings, so pervasive is this need for physical interaction and stimulation that when grossly reduced or denied, the result is often death.

     If an infant is only infrequently handled or cuddled a condition refereed to as marasmus results: that is, the infant does not merely develop bizarre behavior, it will die -- a condition frequently noted in foundling homes and orphanages early in this and throughout the last century.

     For example, in several well known studies of children raised in foundling homes during the early 1900's when the need for contact was not well recognized and children were left to lie alone in their cribs (except during feeding or when being changed), the majority died. Morbidity rates for children less than 1 year of age was over 70%. Of 10,272 children admitted to the Dublin Foundling home during a single 25 year period, only 45 survived."
http://brainmind.com/AttachmentMaternalLoveInfancyChildhood.html
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