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pinguin View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Aug 2011 at 18:16
Remember that in the West we used to burn the witches and wizards to light the streets. Oscurantism is out of fashion in the West
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Aug 2011 at 19:18
Reading list on trends in India:

http://sujaiblog.blogspot.com/2006/09/dawn-of-indian-hindu-fascism.html
Dawn of Indian Hindu fascism
Move over world, here we come!
(this blog has many interesting hyper links shown in red letters, I would encourage curious readers to follow these hyper links to get more information on a particular subject)

http://www.insafbulletin.net/archives/423
INDIA: FASCISM ON THE HORIZON
Daya Varma, Feroz Mehdi and Vinod Mubayi

http://www.worldfuturefund.org/wffmaster/Reading/Total/Fascism.India.htm
FASCISM IN INDIA
ANCIENT TRADITIONS AND MODERN TRENDS

http://www.worldfuturefund.org/wffmaster/Reading/Germany/Caste%20Quotes.htm
QUOTATIONS ON THE CASTE SYSTEM
FROM THE ANCIENT RELIGIOUS TEXTS OF INDIA
ANCIENT EASTERN INFLUENCES
ON THE DEVELOPMENT OF IDEOLOGY IN NAZI GERMANY

http://www.zmo.de/veranstaltungen/2010/Invitation_Zachariah.pdf

Die Welt in Weltkriegen -
Erfahrungen, Wahrnehmungen und
Perspektiven aus Afrika und Asien
Eine Veranstaltungsreihe des Zentrums Moderner Orient
Thursday, 24th June 2010, 6 pm
Rethinking (the Absence of) Fascism
in India, c. 1922-1945
Lecture by Dr. Benjamin Zachariah

http://www.bannedthought.net/India/Fascism/index.htm
BANNEDTHOUGHT.NET
Developing Fascism in India

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/indias-fascism-wears-a-mask-like-churchill-1144949.html

India's fascism wears a mask like Churchill
The decline of Congress has paved the way for Hindu nationalists, finds Peter Popham - unless the Gandhi name can work its magic
Peter Popham

http://www.pucl.org/Topics/Religion-communalism/2004/hindutva-pal.htm

Interview with Dr. R.M. Pal on Hindutva and Fascism in India
"Hindutva and Fascism have much in common"
-- By Yoginder Sikand
9 January 2004

http://aakarbooks.com/content/neoliberalism-and-hindutva-fascism-free-markets-and-restructuring-indian-capitalism-radical-
Neoliberalism and Hindutva; Fascism, Free Markets and the Restructuring of Indian Capitalism (Radical Notes - 2)
This essay shows how for reasons specific to Indian capitalism at the present juncture, the political projects of Hindutva and neoliberalism share certain socio-political agenda. This shared agenda extends at times to a tactical alliance of the two, where both seek to exploit their “common ground” in order to achieve a restructuring of the Indian polity. Moreover, this alliance has already had a considerable impact on large parts of the discursive and political landscape of India—an impact that has not yet been seriously challenged.
You can visit us at http://www.facebook.com/pages/Radical-Notes/105876386116983

http://www.mid-day.com/specials/2010/apr/250410-internet-hindus-online-anonimity-bloggers-anti-muslims-sanjay-kaul.htm
Meet the Internet Hindus
By: DAIPAYAN HALDER    Date:  2010-04-25  
Delhi:
A fast-growing tribe of fanatics who tweet, are e-friends of the BJP, or scuppies on a self-awareness drive. They are out to own the web, finds Daipayan Halder
Anonymity is powerful. Ask Ranojoy.

http://www.anhadin.net/article41.html

Rise of Fascism in India: Victims of Communal Violence Speak
Thursday 17 July 2008, by anhad e-admin

http://www.anhadin.net/IMG/pdf/Myth_of_Vibrant_Gujarat_EDigest.pdf
Myth of Vibrant Gujarat
An E Digest
Compilation of Articles on the development-decadence of Gujarat
Compiled by Ram Puniyani

http://www.sacw.net/article1440.html
Will the Indian state ever take on Hindutva fascism?
by Jawed Naqvi Thursday 20 May 2010

http://indianmuslims.in/journalistic-fascism-and-indian-muslims/
Journalistic Fascism And Indian Muslims
Ajit Sahi is an investigative reporter with the New Delhi-based Tehelka magazine. He recently published several startling reports clearly indicating that scores of innocent Muslims, including some former members or associates of the banned Students’ Islamic Movement of India (SIMI), across the country have been falsely implicated by the police, intelligence agencies and the media as being behind various terror attacks. In this interview with Yoginder Sikand, he talks about how influential sections of the Indian media are playing a major role in demonizing Muslims today.

http://dalkhalsa.blogspot.com/2011/07/rise-of-hindu-fascism-in-india-part-2.html


http://ibnlive.in.com/news/dalit-bias-result-of-hindu-fascism/23605-3.html
Dalit bias result of Hindu fascism?
Amrita Tripathi, CNN-IBN
Updated Nov 22, 2006 at 05:16pm IST

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia-pacific/indian-inquiry-confirms-unmarked-graves-in-kashmir-hold-more-than-2000-unidentified-bodies/2011/08/21/gIQAX9DsTJ_story.html
Indian inquiry confirms graves in Kashmir hold more than 2,000 unidentified bodies
By Associated Press, Published: August 21



Edited by eventhorizon - 23 Aug 2011 at 21:26
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Aug 2011 at 00:36
From the first blog link in above post:
http://sujaiblog.blogspot.com/2006/09/dawn-of-indian-hindu-fascism.html
Quote All these years we waited, we endured and suffered- we were ruled by many foreigners, one after the other. We are angry because we just couldn’t put up a resistance- we succumbed way too easily. When a proud nation which stresses on superior hereditary attributes and proud heritage is made to kneel and suffer, it stores up all the hurt, and this pent up hurt will spew venom far more dangerous than the endured suffering itself. You can see a parallel in Jews of Israel. Their sufferings of two thousand years which culminated in Holocaust has now manifested in outright dominance. There is a feeling that the suffering they have endured has given them a license to dominate, invade and be ruthless – ‘Look! We suffered way too much, now don’t stop us from doing what we believe is our fight to survive- even if that means killing other kinds of people!” Indian Hindus, who are proud, because they were born straight from Brahman (supreme god) himself, always felt they were so superior that they didn’t even have to go out of this sub-continent. Their works, Ramayana, Vedas and Arthashastra were so superior they thought intelligence and complex mental work was some thing that was unique to them. Brahmanical interpretation of such supremacy was codified into our religion resulting in caste based divisions which will survive another thousand years. When such proud people are invaded, pillaged and forced into subjugation by these supposedly inferior foreigners for far too long, the pent up suffering will manifest in outright domination when given a chance. We are just beginning to see that in action.

Indian fascism is being fueled by Hindutva ideology fostering supremacist theories and by the elite academia embracing Vedic sciences. By rejecting scientific and secular modernism imported from West as ‘Westernization’, educated Indians are looking for answers in ancient Indian texts to combat everything West has introduced. There is a large scale cultural revivalism and re-traditionalism happening across this nation. The argument goes- “If you have astrophysics, cosmology and physics, we have Vedas and Upanishads; if you have astronomy, we have astrology; if you have modern medicine, we have Ayurveda; if you have Adam Smith and Karl Marx, we have Arthashastra; if you have traffic engineering and sanitary planning, we don’t believe in all that, we have our own version of environmentalism where in environment and we co-exist; we don’t believe in your empiricism, we can just meditate under a tree and skip the whole Age of Reason and Age of Enlightenment to come to the same conclusions without the need for Quantum Physics and Theory of Relativity. We are a proud culture that has all the answers and now we will teach it to alien religions of India (Christians and Muslims) and then export it to the rest of the world.” I have always believed that while Science gives us questions that we cannot answer, religion provides answers to the questions we have not even asked. And now, it looks like our ancient culture has answers to all the questions- including flight, time travel, atomic bomb and quantum physics.

We already influence nearby geographies by exporting our culture through movies, songs and religion. What kind of culture are we going to export in next hundred years when we start to dominate? Are we ready for this responsibility? We have not invested in mature institutions – like responsible Parliament, a good debate, tolerance of opposing views, healthy research organizations, institutes that uphold citizen freedoms, fair judiciary, etc. We burn up the books that we don’t like, bring down the paintings that we don’t understand, and shut down movies we have never seen. And if we get a chance, we will bring down other people’s houses of worship and blast them while they are praying.




Edited by eventhorizon - 24 Aug 2011 at 00:40
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Aug 2011 at 01:35
That's ridiculous. It is well known that Aryabbata was such a great matematician...thanks to the mathematical techniques Greeks brought to India. It is also known that some of the most famous Indian art is a derivation of Greek as well... Anybody has heared of the Greco-buddist art?
Besides, even the scripts used in the Indian languages derivates from the common root of all the alphabetic writtings: the Caanan!

So, no matter India has an impresive civilization, it wasn't build without borrowings from abroad.


Edited by pinguin - 24 Aug 2011 at 01:36
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Aug 2011 at 07:31
Burning and arson has been the hall mark of West and there is nothing new to it.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Aug 2011 at 07:37
I dont understand the logic why my article "SEP-UL-CHER for posterity was removed from the post citing reason that it is lengthy whereas this post seems to large enough to be removed both for its attack on Hinduism and its length. How come we always have double standards!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Aug 2011 at 08:53

we are begining to see  the concerted attempt at religious bigotry and racial prejudice  in its  most unabashed manifestation.

To defend the doctor's use of the word "Hindi obscurantism"  by attributing it to linguistic obscurantism ( if any such exist) within the context of his post is   an unashamed attempt by the most  bigoted mind to save him from censure. It not only questions the  justice and fairplay ( if any such exist) in the codes of the forum but  speaks volumes about  the morality at play here.
 
Obscurantism  has been the hall mark of Christianity.  With due reverence to the great prophet who  sacrificed himself for the casue of humanity ( whom  all right thinking  Hindus  consider with greatest respect), the religion has degenerated to such an extent that even  the saviour would have been ashamed  of it in its present form.  The theories and practices  of this religion are farthest away from his teachnigs .
 
The whole theory human existence as per this distorted  religion ( if at all  it can be called such  any more) is mired in obscurantist nonsense. Nothing can be more  nonsensical than the theory of  human origin.  If this nonsene is to be taken seriously than all human beings on earth are the children of incest. To call the most noble work of  God  a " sinner" is the greatest sin on earth. The whole Bible is riddled with errors and fallacies.
 
Sample this :

The tradition that Jesus' mother was a virgin…draws on a prophecy available only in the Greek version of Isaiah 7:14: In the original Hebrew, the word that stands behind the Septuagint's parthenos, "virgin," is aalmah, "young girl." [Paula Fredriksen, Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews, p. 27.

Professor Freedman notes: "In the case of the creation, for example, the first chapter of the Bible tells one version of how the world came to be created, and the second chapter of the Bible starts over with a different version of what happened. In many ways they duplicate each other, and on several points they contradict each other." [Freedman, p. 50]
 
What can be more  stupid than the concept of the  "judgement day" which  revolts against human intelligence, based on  whose literalism and inerrancy the "crackpot Chrstians " inform their speculations  about the end of time-- and based on which they justify their brutality against races as happened in the middle east.
 
In  fact one  stupid member of the clergy  Rev. Margaret Stratton  had the cheek to tell  her 200 Methodist Church attendees in Waco, Texas of the Israel bombings , "'What is happening in Israel today, with their neighbors is prophesied in the Bible. The whole world should understand the reason for the conflict in the Middle East,' she said, adding this has all been foretold.
 
What can be more obscurantist than the  " Inquisition" which to say the least militates against Sense, Sensibility and Sensitivity.   ( The cheek to call Hindu Religion obscurantist!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)
 
It is a historic fact that chirstianity has waded through slaughter to predominance as a religion.  The  brutality of the crusades stand testimony to this fact.This is the historical record of the first crusade launched by Pope Urban II

Over the course of that afternoon, evening and next morning, the crusaders murdered almost every inhabitant of Jerusalem. Muslims, Jews, and even eastern Christians were all massacred. Although many Muslims sought shelter atop the Temple Mount inside the Al-Aqsa Mosque, the crusaders spared few lives. According to the anonymous Gesta Francorum, in what some believe to be one of the most valuable contemporary sources of the First Crusade, "...the slaughter was so great that our men waded in blood up to their ankles..."

During the First Crusade and the massacre at Jerusalem, it has been reported that the Crusaders "[circled] the screaming, flame-tortured humanity singing 'Christ We Adore Thee!' with their Crusader crosses held high".[6] Muslims were indiscriminately killed, and Jews who had taken refuge in their Synagogue were murdered when it was burnt down by the Crusaders

Ziauddin Sardar, an Islamic scholar, writes in The New Statesman that Islamophobia is a widespread European phenomenon, so widespread that he asks whether Muslims will be victims of the next pogroms
 
The desperation to  spread  their stupid faith is evident from the unashamed proselytisation that  is the  hall mark of  its followers.  It emanates from a perceived threat  to  the existence of this faith.  Besides the  means used to attain this end  is the most devious and unscruplous.
"There is a special providence in the fall of a sparrow......"
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Aug 2011 at 12:15
Originally posted by Ramesh V.Naivaruni Ramesh V.Naivaruni wrote:

I dont understand the logic why my article "SEP-UL-CHER for posterity was removed from the post citing reason that it is lengthy whereas this post seems to large enough to be removed both for its attack on Hinduism and its length. How come we always have double standards!
Well, you posted that before I'd read eventhorizon's post, which I would agree is overlong since he had given the link it came from. However it wan't as long as yours and I think actually deleting say half of it would be other than quibbling.
 
And it and the link it comes from are not attacking Hinduism. They are written by a Hindu who is frightened by creeping Fascism in modern India. Technically what he describes is closer to Naziism than to Fascism, but he appears to be quite justified in being afraid of it.
 
I can criticise US or British politicians without criticising the Church of England. I can criticise Israeli politicians without attacking Judaism. And I and anybody else can crticise Indian nationalist politicians without attacking Hinduism.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Aug 2011 at 12:18
Originally posted by Ramesh V.Naivaruni Ramesh V.Naivaruni wrote:

Burning and arson has been the hall mark of West and there is nothing new to it.
 
Sati was a hallmark of the West?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Aug 2011 at 12:23
Originally posted by Srinath Naivaruni Srinath Naivaruni wrote:

we are begining to see  the concerted attempt at religious bigotry and racial prejudice  in its  most unabashed manifestation.

I've closed this thread once and will do again if this keeps up. I don't have time at the moment to say more than advise everybody to stick to the topic, which is whether or not modern culture is degenerate with regard to the past.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Aug 2011 at 12:29

The way I see the post one after another including moderator point of view about Doctors Statement, makes me think that there is a Syndicate or a Kabal that exist within this forum, who disagree with anybody and everybody who dont agree with their point of view.  I dont find moderation in any of the post either by Doctor barring few. It is not fair for the moderator be partial.  While he drew my attention to various rules of the forum when I stated that "The western mind is not capable of understanding oriental thoughts" which according to him was objectionable but Hindi obsurantism is a holy word to describe world most Ancient system.

I have come to a conclusion that the "Intellectual Garbage" left by the western think tank is enough to pollute the world population, with this peice of information which has more of mis-information our Prohets have embarked upon a mission to take on "World Ancient System". I pity that even today in the modern age they still think that Indian are far superior which talks about the inferiority complex---Nothing else.
 
I read a recent news paper report which stated that American were concerned about the Nutrious Food Intake of India  and China---What else  should stands a testimony for their fear's.
 
I have seen in this thread by Horizon about harrasment meted out by Muslims in India. let him understand that  even today jews are not welcome in Christain world becoz  13th disciple of christ being a Jew is the reason for the hatredness ! Wow!What   a Intellecutal Society! and they call India "Land of Snake Charmers".  I think one should understand India and Indus Valley Geographically to understand its culture and its people, Here mere Verbose based on few blogs about "Emerging Gurajat" or Riots in India is not cultural history of India or Indus valley.  I think it is time for some of you to "GROW UP"
 
 
I am sure that I will get either a notice or advisaries from our moderator for this statement. Any which ways who cares for discipline in this forum.
 


Edited by Ramesh V.Naivaruni - 24 Aug 2011 at 12:36
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Aug 2011 at 12:54
This is exactly what I said, it borders around double standards. While you agree with the views of all  members barring few like me who will not gone with your line of thinking. If you were one of us it is perfectly ok. Here you take the role of a moderator where your role should not be onesided which does not augur well with the established standards of  moderation.

Edited by Ramesh V.Naivaruni - 24 Aug 2011 at 12:56
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Aug 2011 at 12:58

 

I see the threat to close the thread as a confession of helplessness  rather than an effort to  set right the wrongs  committed which  is expected of a moderator.
 
You are welcome to close the thread for  isn't discretion the better part of  valour?
"There is a special providence in the fall of a sparrow......"
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Aug 2011 at 12:59
How talked about Sati, It is long dead in our system. Agreed it was evil and there was no mention of sati in the vedas or Upanishads it was later caste system that made this rule. So Hindusim does not talk about Sati and there is no mention of the same in any of the "VEDAS, UPANISHADS, GITA".
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Aug 2011 at 13:02
SRI "You said it"  . I had expected it and infact written about such threats or Advisories in my last post.
Alas to sum it up "There is a providence in the fall of sparrow".
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Aug 2011 at 16:13
Originally posted by Ramesh V.Naivaruni Ramesh V.Naivaruni wrote:

The way I see the post one after another including moderator point of view about Doctors Statement, makes me think that there is a Syndicate or a Kabal that exist within this forum, who disagree with anybody and everybody who dont agree with their point of view. 

Think away. Thought is free.
Quote  
I dont find moderation in any of the post either by Doctor barring few. It is not fair for the moderator be partial.  While he drew my attention to various rules of the forum when I stated that "The western mind is not capable of understanding oriental thoughts" which according to him was objectionable but Hindi obsurantism is a holy word to describe world most Ancient system.
Neither 'Hindi' nor 'obscurantism' is a holy word. English doesn't have holy words.
Check out both of them on wikipedia. That Hinduism is 'the world's most ancient system' is merely a claim, not substantiated. (system of what, incidentally?) It is for that matter questionable whether Hindu society  is the same as it was even two thousand years ago.
 
To say that 'the Hindu mind is not capable of understanding western thoughts' would be equally reprehensible. But no-one has said that or anything like it. Of course either sentence is not just reprehensible but as meaningless as the concept of there being a 'Hindu mind' or a 'Western mind' is meaningless.
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Aug 2011 at 16:30
Originally posted by Ramesh V.Naivaruni Ramesh V.Naivaruni wrote:

How talked about Sati, It is long dead in our system. Agreed it was evil and there was no mention of sati in the vedas or Upanishads it was later caste system that made this rule. So Hindusim does not talk about Sati and there is no mention of the same in any of the "VEDAS, UPANISHADS, GITA".
 
Irrelevant. Your point was that it was a 'hallmark of the west'.
 
It is of course a hallmark of Indian history datiing back around two thousand years. Even the companions of Alexander recorded sati in India. Whether it is approved of by your particular sect of Hiduism I don't know, but it remains essentially a Hindu practice.
 
With regard to the holy texts, how about Rig Veda 10.18.7 ? 
Quote Let these wives first step into the pyre, tearless without any affliction and well adorned
 
Or the Atharva Vega?
Quote This woman, choosing her husband’s world, lies down (nipad) by you that are departed, O mortal, continuing to keep [her] ancient duty (dharma); to her assign you here progeny and property.
 
 
You don't by any means speak for all Hindus.
 
Incidentally comparing the early commonness of sati in India with its absence (afaik) today is perfectly compatible with a debate on modern vs ancient cultures.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Aug 2011 at 16:40
Originally posted by Srinath Naivaruni Srinath Naivaruni wrote:

I see the threat to close the thread as a confession of helplessness  rather than an effort to  set right the wrongs  committed which  is expected of a moderator.
It is to some extent a confession of helplessness. If people refuse to follow the thread  or carry on preaching religion and the superiority of their culture in spite of warnings about the rules, or complain about being attacked when someone disagrees with the, one can only delete posts or parts of posts or lock or delete threads or permanently or temporarily ban the posters involved. None of those actually 'right the wrongs'. A moerator's job is to try and find a balance among all those possibilities.
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You are welcome to close the thread for  isn't discretion the better part of  valour?
Closing the thread is neither discreet nor valorous. Nobody's in any danger except perhaps of being rejected by a community whose rules they apparently don't feel bound by.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Aug 2011 at 18:05
Just a bit of advice to the Naivarunis? WorldHistoria is not ivarta.com [e.g.
 
 
That in the various rants the posters presuppose all are ignorant of both the history of the "Indian subcontinent" and that analysis is premised upon some mystic Western prejudice and bigotry is little more than bunkum. We are being served with religious and political cant that does refuse to treat the historical on its own terms for the purpose of fostering an ideological poison that reveals itself incessantly with each additional post. The topic is Modern Culture and its emphasis on unity from diversity with respect to common values. It is not a platform for the revival of discarded ideological idols premised upon a fictional past heavy with obscurantist allusions more akin to the mystical blather of a Blavatzky than an actual historian.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Aug 2011 at 08:18
 
 
Article 7 of the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights states that "All are equal before the law and are entitled without any discrimination to equal protection of the law.
 
I have a strong suspicion however that in this 'esteemed' forum some men are more equal than the others.
 
Ramesh was chastised for his remarks"It highly childish to state the word Xenophobic fanatics, I would say the xenophobia is the hall mark of the west...."  The code of the forum   stated to be violated   was
"Nationalism and the belittlement of religious groups; derogatory remarks to religious, national or ethnic groups and members, jingoism, bigotry, racism, political propaganda "
 
When the  moderator himself justifies the  incendiary and distasteful remarks of  the  doctor  attributing " obscurantism" to Hindu religion,  one is left to wonder   about the sanctity of the codes governing this forum.  What is more appalling than the gross violation of the code is the  blatant misinterpretation of the  statement.   Be that as it may, it is now understood that the  codes of this derive their sanctity from selective application.
 
Coming once again to the charges of Obscurantism  against Hinduism  repeatedly  reiterated in this discussion  a few facts  are worth noting.
 
" Fear is the basis of the whole - fear of the mysterious, fear of defeat, fear of death. Fear is the parent of cruelty  and it is no wonder if   cruelty and religion have gone hand-in-hand"
 
Christianity has for its edifice " Fear". and therefore  obscurantism  eternally stalks this religion.  The cause of Christian obscurantism is is obsession with the original sin and fear of the judgement day.  The basic premise of this religion  is that all knowledge, all inquisitiveness and all philosopy are instigated by the serpent and that absolute humility necessitates 'absolute ignorance'. And when such obscurantism is aiided by   degeneration, the result is monstrous.  The  Inquisition is a perfect example of  this monstrosity that  history witnessed.   A list of  instruments used to torture the heretics is very enlightening as well  as interesting.
 
Rack, stock, water torture, heretics fork, pear, wheel, breast-ripper, hanging cage, garotte, head crusher, iron maiden, strappedo, boots, judas cradle and the ultimate--the stake.
 
Of  particular interest is  the  "The Pear"

The pear was a torture device used on females. This device was inserted into the vagina, or mouth of the victim and then expanded by force of the screw to the maximum aperture setting of the victims cavity. The antrum would then irremediably become lacerated, nearly always fatally, ripping the tissue, flesh and membranes.

The ingenuity and innovativeness of the obscurantist Christian mind deserves  one  round of loud applause .  Joan- of Arc salutes you from her grave.

 

 

 

 
 
 
"There is a special providence in the fall of a sparrow......"
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Aug 2011 at 10:11
Criticism always seems to have the same response, others have done much worse in recent or remote past, so this means that there is license to indulge.

If we talk about Tibet, the Chinese start talking about Red Indians. If we talk to Indians about minority Muslims and Christians, Indians start talking about Iraq, Hiroshima and some go further back to Inquisition, even with vulgar, grotesque and graphic imagery.

There cannot be any reasoning with such mega beasts, billion plus hungry of yester year suddenly getting the taste of power that now want to club the world into submission. Humanity is but part of the jungle and the law of the jungle is the only law that people follow. This is Human culture, ancient, classical, medieval or modern, since our ancestors fell from the tree and started walking upright. At the core basics, it never changed much and probably never will, at least for the foreseeable future.

The two mega beasts must be disengaged from the "free world" and left on their own devices, if we want to avoid another prewar Germany or an Imperial Japan. They have to be weakened while other smaller nations round the world should be engaged and made stronger. The key is a new strategic trading paradigm as opposed to the existing loosing game of WTO/free trade. The current situation has the playing field tilted towards the two mega states by default, a fatal self destructive fault of the existing trading regime. But to bring some changes, the domestic political house need to be reorganized in the developed countries of the world. That is the only road to avoid the coming chaos, the world will eventually come to discover, before its too late, it is my hope.

Whats in it for a faraway African or South American country in this conflict, there is much, as everyone must take sides, if they do not, they should be excluded and allowed to get a taste of Arthashastra and SunTzu/Confutzu.


Edited by eventhorizon - 25 Aug 2011 at 11:55
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Aug 2011 at 11:42

With this must skeletons under their cupboard they are talking about SATI ! Citing its references in the Vedas . To be more precise to understand Vedas has meaning which which is beyond the mere words when translated I would quote for example 'Diyo yono prachodayat" as simple sounding Sanskrit word when it is pronounced "Diyo Yona prachodayat" means totally  different , while the first one says bring in Light, the second says Block the light. The literal translation is impossible of the Vedas. What has been said in the Vedas of Sati is the Moral point of view, it is said that woman during the Vedic period had mystical powers to give up her life at the death of the beloved husband.

Again Thoughts are but a slave of time, nobody either me or Srinath has ever justified it and I did not bring in the topic of Sati it was the moderator who poked at this system, if  there is something wrong in the system I feel it must be rectified and that has been my view always.

 

If one was to go by Manu Smiriti he has said "yata nariyasu pujanthe thata devata raha" which means where the women is worshiped the gods will be there, and where she is abused, the gods will vanish.  There is not an incident either in modern India or Ancient where our womenwere tortured like what has been said in Srinath's Post. Even if they were from the enemy's camp.

 

We have seen many wars in our mythologies, Modern age where India and Indians were party to it, the war has always been fought with utmost caution and bombing were discreetly done to ensure civilians were not affected.  Whereas what happened in Iraq , Afghanistan and elsewhere the United States and its allies were parties to it, we have seen gross violation of the so called International convention.  Take for example Iraq, the President  "Saddam Hussien" was taken out like a rat, and disrespected  and I don’t think there was a fair trial at all, where was the trial for Osama Bin Laden, Whereas when India defeated  Pakistan in their fight for" Liberation of Bangladesh" with more than 100000 soldiers Pakistani General surrendered and our Army higher ups, thought that the officer of the same rank should do the protocol , Who went up to him and removed his badge and treated him with honor. Even today Ajmal Kasab the Mumbai Terrorist is getting good treatment in Indian Jail and we have provided Legal Aid free of Cost----So the difference is very much visible between the Indian Mindset and the Western one. 

 

Our mythologies are full of stories of Dharma Yudha(War with Principles where women and children are not targeted).  We also know what happened to Senor Mussolini whose dead body was urinated upon and the allied soldiers mocking at the vanquished. While I am not in favors of either Hitler or Mussolini or their war programs which I consider Monstrous, but if the other parties who considers themselves to be sober should have dealt the victory in a more refined way.

 

For people who dont know the Vedas I would like to state that there is another name for Vedas which is called "SHRUTI"(THE ONE WHICH IS HEARD) so most of the vedas were taught from one generation to the other generation through citations and chanting and hence I for one would agree with the concept of " Barrier to communication syndrome" where many of the words or group of words or phraseology would have got lost ,except for people who have inherited the Vedic way of life as it is only continuity. 

The other crux is that  in Citation  of Vedas there are  two meanings, one is Karamika and Adityamika(Transcendental), Where implied meaning is different from actual text. For example

Let us take case of Dasha Avatar of Vishnu(I am mentioning the name of Vishnu becoz Doctors seems to be knowing him personally!) it talks  ten different incarnations while the ordinary mind will think of Vishnu in ten different forms the mind with Adhatmika will find the ten incarnations into the "Evolution of Man"  and look at it closely one can relate it to Darwin Theory. 

 

Mere reading of Vedas in English cannot make one understand the dept of Vedas or Upanishads one must go through a Guru(Teacher) only then one can understand them.

 

I think the thread is not going in a way it has to be, while the objective must be Sharing collective Wisdom of the forum with debates which should centre around topic and not Individuals it is best if that is adhered to collectively  which Includes the moderation process. Mindless Statement of the Doctor and subsequent rebuttal is not desirable. ( I think this should have come from the moderator) who unfortunately choose to defend the Doc and hence there is a suspicion about a cartels being formed within the forum, which defeats the very purpose of treating ourselves as one amongst the community. 

 

 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Aug 2011 at 11:46
You said it," The TWO MEGA BEAST "   they are "United States"  & United Kingdom.  it is time that this two countries are disengaged , earlier the better.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Aug 2011 at 12:42
Here the story unfolds, If I would have posted it after Everthon than my Article would not have got deleted so the bench mark is not the length ? but who posted it.  I am not at all convinced about your statement, so what if some one has given a link and I have not done so. I think in all fairness you should post my article back in this discussion.
 
Here I did not say that Everthon talked about Hindusim, and my article was more valid for the discussion in question than Everthon, because we were talking about technology as a barometer for cultural progression & otherwise and my articles was suggestive of Technological perils and human helplessness.
 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Aug 2011 at 17:19
Originally posted by Ramesh V.Naivaruni Ramesh V.Naivaruni wrote:

Here the story unfolds, If I would have posted it after Everthon than my Article would not have got deleted so the bench mark is not the length ? but who posted it.  I am not at all convinced about your statement, so what if some one has given a link and I have not done so. I think in all fairness you should post my article back in this discussion.
 
Here I did not say that Everthon talked about Hindusim, and my article was more valid for the discussion in question than Everthon, because we were talking about technology as a barometer for cultural progression & otherwise and my articles was suggestive of Technological perils and human helplessness.
 
Given that this tandem is intent on making matters personal by constant reference to a phrase that they are iinsistent on misrepresenting in exercises more fit for Lewis Carroll and Wonderland, and that there is repeated whining over the "reproduction" of some piece of semi-literary jawing at word play [i.e. "Sep-ul-cher"] that was deleted as if such was some sort of vengeful action, it is now necessary to make clear that these antics are not appreciated and that all of these "protestations" are more than nonsensical and the piece in question could easily be taken for Spam given the fact that it has long been on the Internet--
 
 
--and this Forum is not a venue for the publicizing of one's own scattered bits of detritus. "Your" article, sir, already has its own ethereal position and all that would have been necessary was a simple link. If you are interested in generating some sort of "padding", as in resume, please be aware that you are not dealing with the unawares. As for all the claptrap on "perils and human helplessness", such emotive nonsense is hardly the hallmark of a critical thinker. That you have decided to make yourself the "center" of attention by manufacturing this tempest best kept at the Mad Hatter's Tea Party is more than obvious. It is more than obvious that you are not V. S. Naipaul, so spare us all of these needless protestations.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Aug 2011 at 21:07
Originally posted by Srinath Naivaruni Srinath Naivaruni wrote:

 Article 7 of the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights states that "All are equal before the law and are entitled without any discrimination to equal protection of the law.
Why do you think the UN Declaration should be authoritative here? Lots of our posters come from countries that don't recognise it, and of course in no country is it specifically binding.
Quote  
I have a strong suspicion however that in this 'esteemed' forum some men are more equal than the others.
 
Ramesh was chastised for his remarks"It highly childish to state the word Xenophobic fanatics, I would say the xenophobia is the hall mark of the west...." 
No he wasn't. He was chastised for saying "Burning and arson has been the hall mark of the west..." You night try to get your facts right, though it doesn't seem that you feel that to be very important. 
Quote
 The code of the forum   stated to be violated   was
"Nationalism and the belittlement of religious groups; derogatory remarks to religious, national or ethnic groups and members, jingoism, bigotry, racism, political propaganda "
 
When the  moderator himself justifies the  incendiary and distasteful remarks of  the  doctor  attributing " obscurantism" to Hindu religion, 
He did not do that. That has been explained to you countless times. He undoubtedly implied that some Hindus are obscurantist, but that is also undoubtedly true. I don't even see why you object to it. People can be obscurantist if they like: it's not derogatory.
Christians are quite often obscurantist too, otherwis the rest of your post is just burbling about things everyone already knows.
However
Quote
The ingenuity and innovativeness of the obscurantist Christian mind deserves  one  round of loud applause . 
is going a bad step further, since it implies that there is only one Christian mind (i.e. all Christians think the same) and that miknd is obscurantists. THAT is belittling a religion. Saying that some believers are obscurantist is not belittling a religion.


Edited by gcle2003 - 25 Aug 2011 at 21:09
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Aug 2011 at 21:13
Originally posted by Ramesh V.Naivaruni Ramesh V.Naivaruni wrote:

With this must skeletons under their cupboard they are talking about SATI ! Citing its references in the Vedas . To be more precise to understand Vedas has meaning which which is beyond the mere words when translated I would quote for example 'Diyo yono prachodayat" as simple sounding Sanskrit word when it is pronounced "Diyo Yona prachodayat" means totally  different , while the first one says bring in Light, the second says Block the light. The literal translation is impossible of the Vedas. What has been said in the Vedas of Sati is the Moral point of view, it is said that woman during the Vedic period had mystical powers to give up her life at the death of the beloved husband.

That paragraph alone justifies the charge of obscurantism. There's no need for more.
With regard to sati, since there is nohing that stops you taking anything from any text and saying well it actually means something else, even though it is perfectly clear what it does mean, is classic obscurantist technique.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Aug 2011 at 21:18
Originally posted by Ramesh V.Naivaruni Ramesh V.Naivaruni wrote:

Here the story unfolds, If I would have posted it after Everthon than my Article would not have got deleted so the bench mark is not the length ? but who posted it.  I am not at all convinced about your statement, so what if some one has given a link and I have not done so. I think in all fairness you should post my article back in this discussion.
I told you what to do with the article. I even returned it to you in a private message. This isn't a place for posting 'articles'. Thanks to drgonzaga we now know there was a link available, and he has kindly, if a tad sarcastically, gibven us it so it is now restored. Even if you were unaware of the situation you could in fact have edited the post to insert the link, in which case it would have been perfectly acceptable, instead of leading to yll the whining aout your being discriminated against.
Quote  
Here I did not say that Everthon talked about Hindusim,
And I never said you did. You were talking about drgonzaga's phrase 'Hndi obscurantism'.
And it's not everthon. Assuming your eyesight is normal, which I accept it may not be, you can't just make up poster's names the way you make up meanings for words.
Quote
and my article was more valid for the discussion in question than Everthon, because we were talking about technology as a barometer for cultural progression & otherwise and my articles was suggestive of Technological perils and human helplessness.
It wasn't deleted for subjecct, but for length.


Edited by gcle2003 - 25 Aug 2011 at 21:27
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Aug 2011 at 05:14
To all participants of this thread. This thread has gone off topic for far long enough. Let's please return to the original discussion for "modern culture"! Otherwise, if it continues as is as i will explain in the next paragraph, then yes... this thread will be shut down for good!

Also, as a respectful reminder for all of us, it is most highly recommended that all members please refrain from religious preaching, ultra-nationalism and needless derogatory remarks, by leaving such at the door before entering this forum. That does apply to us on the staff as well as to our members.

And finally.... @ Sirnath Naivaruni & Ramesh V. Naivaruni - You gentlemen are most welcome to participate in other parts of the forum. Yes there are some restricted areas, but that can be quickly overcome in a few days by participating in other parts of the forum. There is no need to restrict yourselves to this one thread only. There are other more interesting threads, much like this one was, for the both of you to participate in.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Aug 2011 at 07:22
I welcome your recommendation while fully agreeing with you that this  thread has gone far off the topic.  Since I am the originator of this thread, I would like to place on record that my intention was not to venture into the  religious aspects of culture which  as we all know are fraught with  bias and prejudices.
 
If you could look into my earlier posts ( till the time obscurantism was attributed to Hindu Religion) I have never dwelt on religion, nor even  Indian Culture (on which I think I am more  acquanited with  than many of our fellow posters). Not even a passing reference has been made in my posts to the  Indian culture or its merits/demerits, for I fully understand that this forum is meant to discuss universal  issues and not narrow national  ones.
 
If this thread has to have  meaningful continuity, then  all concerned ( without exception) should strictly adhere to the topic on hand and desisit from asserting their cultural/religious superiority and should not even make passing references to religious beliefs/issues let alone belittling other religions.  Otherwise it is in the interests of all that  this thread is forever closed.
 
Finally I would like to once again appeal that the codes of the forum are applicable to all without discrimination  ( and some respect be paid to the UN declaration of universal rights and equality)
"There is a special providence in the fall of a sparrow......"
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