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Modern Iranic peoples

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    Posted: 19 Nov 2010 at 07:56
The important Iranic-speaking peoples that we know of today include:

The Persians/Medes: the dominant ethnicity in Iran. Founder of one of the greatest old urban civilizations in the world. Mostly Shiite Muslims

the Kurds: a rural people living in mountainous region between Turkey, Iraq, Siria.

The Pashtuns: the dominant nationality of Afghanistan.

The Hazari: a former nomadic ethnic group of partly Turko-Mongol origin living between Afghanistan and Pakistan

The Tajiks: another sedentary urban civilization on the Silk Road. Dominant nationality in Tajikstan and in some parts of Uzbekistan, such as the city of Samarkand.

Another less numerous nationality, but has nevertheless made the headlines in the last few years is the Ossetians, believed to be descendants of Sarmatians. Living in the norhtern Caucasus region. Distint to most Iranic peoples in that they are Christian.

Do most of these Iranic people speak mutually intelligible language?
Do they practice very different traditions? (nomad vs sedentary, the degree of Islamization etc)
Is there any type of feeling of kinship between different Iranic peoples? For example, does a Tajik feel closer to a Hazari or Pashtun does he does to Uzbeks and Kirguiz?



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 2010 at 09:36
Calvo, don't forget that many of those Iranic people are of different backgrounds, like for example some are of Scythian origin and some are indeed of Persian/Median origin. In the past both those Iranic groups differed in lifestyle since the later for example lived in Mesopotamia while the others lived in the Eurasian steps. The same applied for other people of common origin...See for example the divisions within the Celts and the Greeks. From region to region the differences could be vast, maybe not in culture but in social order and lifestyle.

As for the language, since I don't posses any iranic language I cannot tell for sure. I suspect there is at least in written form full intelligibility between them. It is when spoken, different dialects can be hard to understand.




Edited by Flipper - 19 Nov 2010 at 09:37
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 2010 at 19:47
Most of those peoples, except Kurds and Ossetians actually speak Farsi. But the AFAIK Farsi is not mutually intelligible with Kursish and even less so with Ossetian (Iranicness of which is still disputed). Not sure about Pashto though.
 
Besides the ethnic groups you mentioned there is a big Balouchi group whose language is similar to Kurdish. There are also Pamiri and Yagnobi people in Tajikistan who are believed to be the descendants of Sogdians.
 
It's hard to say about affinity feelings it's more like case by case basis. A Tajik would prefer Uzbeks to Pashtuns in modern Afghanistan. But that wouldn't be the case in Uzbekistan or Tajikistan where two people largely dislike each other. At the same time the way of life and mentality of Tajiks and Uzbeks are very close.
 
Yeah and I forgot, there are other interesting Iranic people in Caucasus like Talysh and Tats. There are different theories about Tats BTW and they include Muslims, Christians and even Judaist Tats.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 2010 at 22:46
Here's my ramblings.

Taxonomy:

Kurdish and dialects and related:

Kermanji - Least intelligible with a trained Persian ear. Clearest candidate for Mede root.

Sorani - moderate to low intelligibility with Persian. My opinion is that this is a form of middle Persian.

Kalhori/Bashuri - Highly intelligible with a trained Persian ear.  Roots in Pahlavi Persian (Sassanid), so many modern Persian words loaned in that it is almost completely understandable to a trained ear - pronunciation characteristics in line with Sassanid make it a heavily Persianised off-shoot of Hawramani for me.

Hawramani - Not intelligible to other Kurdish dialects or Persian.  Roots are in Pahlavi Persian (Sassanid)

Lorestani - closely related to Kalhori/Bashuri
Zaza  - said to be rooted in Parthian.

Persian and dialects:

Farsi/Dari - Parthian root.
Gilaki - dialect of Persian.
Mazandarani - dialect of Persian.
Bakhtiari - Sassanid root


Of these Kurdish and Persian groups are most closely related but there is not complete intelligibility between any of them or even between their dialects.  Many Kurdish words are simplified Persian (such as cho = cheshm = eye).  If you can understand both then the similarities are very clear.

What is easy to tell is whether the language is Iranic or not because of certain obvious characteristics.  I think the biggest difference between Persian and its dialects and even Kurdish is in accent and pronunciation.

It is also worth noting that the translation of Old Persian (Achaemenid) was made possible by working backwards from modern Persian.


Others:
Pashtun - said to be rooted in Saka
Baluchi - said to be related to Kurdish
Ossetian - said to be rooted in Sarmatian
Talyshi - said to be of Parthian root.
Tati - Sassanid root, these people were actually migrated to their current location by the sassanids



"There was glory in pissing, Corabb decided as he watched the stream curve out and make that familiar but unique sound as it hit the ground." So true.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote calvo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Dec 2010 at 11:02
Originally posted by Sarmat Sarmat wrote:

Besides the ethnic groups you mentioned there is a big Balouchi group whose language is similar to Kurdish. There are also Pamiri and Yagnobi people in Tajikistan who are believed to be the descendants of Sogdians.


I've never heard of the Balouchi group. Which ethnic groups do they include and where do they live?

From ancient sources, it seemed that Scythian and Persian was intelligible, as the Iranic speaking nomads of Central Asia provided a steady source of recruits for the Parthian and Sassanid Army without any language barrier.
When this region was overrun by Turkic-speaking tribes, the Sassanid Empires lost this major strategic advantage.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Dec 2010 at 16:01
They are people numbering about 10 million worldwide, mostly concentrated in Pakistan, in its South-Western Balochistan province. They also live in Afghanistan and Iran and in several Middle Eastern countries in lesser numbers. Balochi Sunni separatist movement is a huge headache for Iranian authorities.
 
They are divided into several tribal and clan group there is also a distinction between Northern and Southern Baloches AFAIK.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Xorto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Dec 2010 at 03:10
 
Originally posted by calvo calvo wrote:



the Kurds: a rural people living in mountainous region between Turkey, Iraq, Siria.





you forgot Iran almost 8 Mio Kurds live there. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Xorto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Dec 2010 at 03:35
Originally posted by Zagros Zagros wrote:

Here's my ramblings.

Taxonomy:

Kurdish and dialects and related:

Kermanji - Least intelligible with a trained Persian ear. Clearest candidate for Mede root.

Kurmanji is according to new studies believed to be borrowed from Scythian.

Originally posted by Zagros Zagros wrote:

Sorani - moderate to low intelligibility with Persian. My opinion is that this is a form of middle Persian.

The only think Sorani has more in common with Persian is the loseof Casus Rectus but this isn´t borrowed from Persian it is more a development Sorani-Gurani has in common with Persian. in Vocabulary and sound shifts Sorani is as Northwestiranic and some sort of Scythian as other kurdisch languages. 

Originally posted by Zagros Zagros wrote:

Kalhori/Bashuri - Highly intelligible with a trained Persian ear.  Roots in Pahlavi Persian (Sassanid), so many modern Persian words loaned in that it is almost completely understandable to a trained ear - pronunciation characteristics in line with Sassanid make it a heavily Persianised off-shoot of Hawramani for me.

Kelhuri has many Persian loanwords and also common with Persian and Sorani the Lose of Casus Rectus . It is also called Southkurdish this may be the Reason why it is understandable by persian Speakers. But Kelhuri is rather a dialect of the Laki group and related also to Scythian and not Sassanid what was a middle Persian dynasty.

Originally posted by Zagros Zagros wrote:

Hawramani - Not intelligible to other Kurdish dialects or Persian.  Roots are in Pahlavi Persian (Sassanid)

Is very close to Sorani the only difference is that it has more pure Northwestiranic words. Hewrami is also a offshot of Scythian.

Originally posted by Zagros Zagros wrote:


Lorestani - closely related to Kalhori/Bashuri


Lorestani is a dialect of Kelhuri but hardly mixed with Persian.

Originally posted by Zagros Zagros wrote:


Zaza  - said to be rooted in Parthian.


Zazaki and Kurmanci have the same root phoneticly it is almost the same like Kurmanci. but Kurmanci use to have more sound shifts. Zazaki is also borrowed from Scythian.

Originally posted by Zagros Zagros wrote:


Persian and dialects:

Farsi/Dari - Parthian root.
Gilaki - dialect of Persian.
Mazandarani - dialect of Persian.
Bakhtiari - Sassanid root


Of these Kurdish and Persian groups are most closely related but there is not complete intelligibility between any of them or even between their dialects.  Many Kurdish words are simplified Persian (such as cho = cheshm = eye).  If you can understand both then the similarities are very clear.

the kurdish word for Eye is not borrowed from persian but rather a general Iranian word. 


Originally posted by Zagros Zagros wrote:


What is easy to tell is whether the language is Iranic or not because of certain obvious characteristics.  I think the biggest difference between Persian and its dialects and even Kurdish is in accent and pronunciation.

It is also worth noting that the translation of Old Persian (Achaemenid) was made possible by working backwards from modern Persian.


It is not only the accent. A accent can change many kurds have different Accents. It is rather the loud shifts and grammer. for Example what are you doing.

Kurmanci. Tu ci di-ke (di is Suffix)
Zazaki: Tu ci ke-no (no is suffix)

Sorani: To ci de-ke (de is suffix)

Laki-kehluri-lori: Tu ci ke (no suffix but the same word for doing ke)

Hewrami: ti ci ke-nu (nu suffix)

Persian: to ci mi-khone (mi suffix khone southwestiranic word for doing) 

 in former times Old Persian(southwestiranic) and old Westscythian-Medic (northwestiranic) was almost the same but it has grown a part.

[/QUOTE]

Quote
Others:
Pashtun - said to be rooted in Saka
Baluchi - said to be related to Kurdish
Ossetian - said to be rooted in Sarmatian
Talyshi - said to be of Parthian root.
Tati - Sassanid root, these people were actually migrated to their current location by the sassanids




agreeThumbs Up only let me ad  baluch people say that they originaly were from Mesopotamia. Their language however is also some sort of Scythian (which was spoken also among Medians and Parthians).



Edited by Xorto - 11 Dec 2010 at 16:13
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Dec 2010 at 08:56
Thanks for that. 
"There was glory in pissing, Corabb decided as he watched the stream curve out and make that familiar but unique sound as it hit the ground." So true.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Xorto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Dec 2010 at 16:15

Originally posted by Zagros Zagros wrote:

Thanks for that. 


between zagros are you a Kurd? or some sort of Persian from Esfahan-Shiraz or Persian Gulf Smile


Also note The kurdish languages seem like a Scythian dialect hardly intermixed with Alanic. one of the biggest kurdish tribes is the tribe of Alan also called Alû. The Alan tribe is found around Van, Dersim Hakkari, Sirnak and the Provinz Kurdistan with his former name Erdalan.

unfortunally some of the Alans in Dersim were deported systematicly to Istanbul and now think they are Turks.



Edited by Xorto - 11 Dec 2010 at 16:26
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Dec 2010 at 17:31
No, I'm from Kermanshah/Kermashan. 
"There was glory in pissing, Corabb decided as he watched the stream curve out and make that familiar but unique sound as it hit the ground." So true.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Xorto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Dec 2010 at 18:36
Originally posted by Zagros Zagros wrote:

No, I'm from Kermanshah/Kermashan. 


so you are kurdish? or of the persian minorities in Kirmashan.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Dec 2010 at 21:03
My mum's half/half, but descended from the Larti tribe on the paternal side, who settled there 500 years ago.   What about you? Where are you from?


Edited by Zagros - 11 Dec 2010 at 21:03
"There was glory in pissing, Corabb decided as he watched the stream curve out and make that familiar but unique sound as it hit the ground." So true.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Dec 2010 at 22:44
Originally posted by Xorto Xorto wrote:


Also note The kurdish languages seem like a Scythian dialect hardly intermixed with Alanic. one of the biggest kurdish tribes is the tribe of Alan also called Alû. The Alan tribe is found around Van, Dersim Hakkari, Sirnak and the Provinz Kurdistan with his former name Erdalan.

What exactly does it mean?
 
We don't know much about Scythian language. The most widely accepted hypo is that the modern Ossetian language originates from Scythian/Alanic and it's classified as Eastern Iranic language. But Kurdish is Western Iranic and doesn't seem to be related to Scythian linguistic material.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Xorto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Dec 2010 at 23:11
Originally posted by Sarmat Sarmat wrote:

Originally posted by Xorto Xorto wrote:


Also note The kurdish languages seem like a Scythian dialect hardly intermixed with Alanic. one of the biggest kurdish tribes is the tribe of Alan also called Alû. The Alan tribe is found around Van, Dersim Hakkari, Sirnak and the Provinz Kurdistan with his former name Erdalan.

What exactly does it mean?
 
We don't know much about Scythian language. The most widely accepted hypo is that the modern Ossetian language originates from Scythian/Alanic and it's classified as Eastern Iranic language. But Kurdish is Western Iranic and doesn't seem to be related to Scythian linguistic material.

This are very old researches. Today we know that there were two tribes of Scythians. A Eastern one called Saka and a Western one called Skudhra-Scythian like heredotus and the Persians called them. Also this hole East and Westiranian Classifications are not good at all. newer researches have shown that the division in a Central- Southwest and Northeast Group is much better. Today many linguists are the same opinion that Kurdish- Ossetian Beluchi etc should be putten together into one Central Group.

http://www.intersolinc.com/newsletters/images/Language%20Tree.gif

http://www.wikinfo.org/upload/1/10/Indoeuro.jpg

The Kurdish languages however are today classifiedas some sort of Scythian Dialect which also was found by Xenephon in his Anabasis when he moved throw some parts of Kurdistan.

In former times the Linguists believed that the V=B shift found among Persians and Kurmanci-Sorani Speakers is a feature of New Iranic languages. But they found this Shift also among some Scythian tribes so it seems that this shift is much older. Also Kurdish has many louds which are exactly the same as Scythian- Sarmatian what isn´t found among other Iranic languages.


If we go to culturell thing. Kurds have culturell Features known very well by Scythians. Like the Tatoos which should safe someone from bad Spirits. I think you know the Scythian Mummy found in the Altai Region with many Tatoos on it. This Tradition is also a very common one among Kurds and has the same. Reason to Safe the Person from bad Spirits.



It is still used to be done in our Villages.



Edited by Xorto - 11 Dec 2010 at 23:35
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Xorto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Dec 2010 at 23:13
Originally posted by Zagros Zagros wrote:

My mum's half/half, but descended from the Larti tribe on the paternal side, who settled there 500 years ago.   What about you? Where are you from?


I am a Kurd from Northkurdistan the Anatolian part but close to borders.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Dec 2010 at 20:45
Originally posted by Xorto Xorto wrote:


This are very old researches. Today we know that there were two tribes of Scythians. A Eastern one called Saka and a Western one called Skudhra-Scythian like heredotus and the Persians called them. Also this hole East and Westiranian Classifications are not good at all. newer researches have shown that the division in a Central- Southwest and Northeast Group is much better. Today many linguists are the same opinion that Kurdish- Ossetian Beluchi etc should be putten together into one Central Group.

http://www.intersolinc.com/newsletters/images/Language%20Tree.gif

http://www.wikinfo.org/upload/1/10/Indoeuro.jpg



I'm not sure if we can classify Kurdish as Scythian. I think it is far from certain. The only language discussed in relation to it is Ossetian. From it's geography, Kurdish must be closer to western Iranic than Scythian. In any case, it is impossible to make any secure assumption actually.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Xorto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Dec 2010 at 21:51
Originally posted by Flipper Flipper wrote:

Originally posted by Xorto Xorto wrote:


This are very old researches. Today we know that there were two tribes of Scythians. A Eastern one called Saka and a Western one called Skudhra-Scythian like heredotus and the Persians called them. Also this hole East and Westiranian Classifications are not good at all. newer researches have shown that the division in a Central- Southwest and Northeast Group is much better. Today many linguists are the same opinion that Kurdish- Ossetian Beluchi etc should be putten together into one Central Group.

http://www.intersolinc.com/newsletters/images/Language%20Tree.gif

http://www.wikinfo.org/upload/1/10/Indoeuro.jpg



I'm not sure if we can classify Kurdish as Scythian. I think it is far from certain. The only language discussed in relation to it is Ossetian. From it's geography, Kurdish must be closer to western Iranic than Scythian. In any case, it is impossible to make any secure assumption actually.


I already mentioned this are old researches. Scythian had 2 branches one was Westscythian the other East. And also kurdish is believed to be related hardly to Parthian. Parthian is also classified as Northwestiranic and like we all know, Parthians were also a Scythian tribe. So how could this be? The newer researches show us that the kurdish language is definitly borrowed from Scythian. The Median Conferderation was not a tribe. Among the Median Conferderation you could find many Scythians-Alanians and even Cimmerians according to heredotus.  



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Dec 2010 at 00:13
Quote I already mentioned this are old researches. Scythian had 2 branches one was Westscythian the other East.


How do you know this?

Quote Parthian is also classified as Northwestiranic and like we all know, Parthians were also a Scythian tribe.


This is a good point.  But the Parthians originated from Khorasan.  So with this logic then, if there is to be a reclassification of Scythian then you have to change it to North Scythian (Parthian and the like) and South Scythian (Saka from which Pashtun is rooted) instead of West and East.  Ossetian is a case of an East Iranian language is the western reaches.

It should also be noted that Parthian Pahlavi and Sassanid Pahlavi were not so different from each other.   My theory is that the South Kurdish languages have a Sassanid Pahlavi root.  There are many idiosyncrasies in all South Kurdish languages with Sassanid Pahlavi.


"There was glory in pissing, Corabb decided as he watched the stream curve out and make that familiar but unique sound as it hit the ground." So true.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Xorto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Dec 2010 at 02:31
Originally posted by Zagros Zagros wrote:

Quote I already mentioned this are old researches. Scythian had 2 branches one was Westscythian the other East.


How do you know this?

Quote Parthian is also classified as Northwestiranic and like we all know, Parthians were also a Scythian tribe.


This is a good point.  But the Parthians originated from Khorasan.  So with this logic then, if there is to be a reclassification of Scythian then you have to change it to North Scythian (Parthian and the like) and South Scythian (Saka from which Pashtun is rooted) instead of West and East.  Ossetian is a case of an East Iranian language is the western reaches.

It should also be noted that Parthian Pahlavi and Sassanid Pahlavi were not so different from each other.   My theory is that the South Kurdish languages have a Sassanid Pahlavi root.  There are many idiosyncrasies in all South Kurdish languages with Sassanid Pahlavi.


Thats why I said the hole West- East  division is not very good. And i tried to show this with Parthians as example. Parthians are well known as Scythian tribe. Also there language is Northwestiranic but according to old researches Scythian was Eastiranic. We all know that in Fact Northwest and Eastiranic languages are very close to each other. Iam sorry don´t think I say this on bias Big smile but among the Iranic languages Southwestiranic languages are the only one which are different from other Iranic languages. I think thats cause Persians used to be one of the  Iranic groups which were totaly in Language and sounds. They changed on worked on their language the most.Aand Thats why some linguists just use to put all Northiranic languages into one Central Iranic group. And only Kothanese into one Northeast and Persian- Dari-Tajik in a sothwestgroup. However Yes it is true that Sassanid Pahlavi was compared to todays Persian closer to Northiranic languages  but Southkurdish Dialects have Properties which are only found among Northwestiranic Languages and even very old louds. Leki for example uses still V/W louds what was changed even in Oldpersian to B louds. Northiranic languages had two type of groups one changed the old V/W louds in to B the other kept the old V/W louds. But all Southwestiranic languages changed the V/W louds into B even the Sassanids. Someone might think they borrowed it from Sorani or other kurdisch languages. This can´t be because 

1. it is a systematic loud change

2. all Kurmanci Dialects and most Sorani Dialects belong to the Northiranic languages which changed V/W into B

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Xorto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Dec 2010 at 04:11
Also note Feyli comes from Pehyli meaning Pahlavani. Pahlavani was called the middle Iranic Period including Sassanid and Parthian. So a Pahlavani language can have his roots by Parthians or Sassanids but Peyli kurdish has it definitly in Northern one.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Dec 2010 at 20:47
My humble opinion is that you have to be a philologist to classify languages with any authority, you have to study linguistic characteristics.  That is not to say a reclassification should not take place, simply that it has to be done scientifically.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Dec 2010 at 21:08
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Iranian_languages_word_table

This is interesting, but it does not include the transitional languages between Kermanji and Persian that we have been discussing like Feyli/Laki/Lorestani/Kalhori/Bashuri (these four are almost entirely mutually intelligible and largely understandable by a trained Persian ear). 

Also Gorani is not included which is shame, because for me is the most interesting language because some still class it as a Middle Iranian language.  This language is a living relic.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Xorto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Dec 2010 at 16:48
Originally posted by Zagros Zagros wrote:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Iranian_languages_word_table

This is interesting, but it does not include the transitional languages between Kermanji and Persian that we have been discussing like Feyli/Laki/Lorestani/Kalhori/Bashuri (these four are almost entirely mutually intelligible and largely understandable by a trained Persian ear). 


I already explained why. The Southkurdish dialects are influenced by Persian and also have many loanwords but the root is clear like I gave you the example of loud shifts. This loud shifts are definitly Northiranic. You should ask a linguist why they put it in Northwestiranic group.

Originally posted by Zagros Zagros wrote:


Also Gorani is not included which is shame, because for me is the most interesting language because some still class it as a Middle Iranian language.  This language is a living relic.

It is a Middle Iranic Language yes but not a middle Persian like I already explained Middle Iranic had to main Language groups Parthian in the North and Middle Persian in the Southgroup. I also am a Kurmanci Speaker but still understand a few words or sometimes a sentence this is normal a Russian speaker can also understand sometimes what a guy from  Serbia or Poland means.

 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Dec 2010 at 16:50
Who said Gorani was Persian?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Dec 2010 at 17:06
Regarding the East / West vs North / South classification schemes...

I think there is already a North / South Classification as you describe, for example, Persian is south western; Kermanji is north western.  Then there is the eastern classification for the likes of Pashtun.

Also you have to consider some extinct languages such Khwarezmi Persian which was actually related to Pashtun and located in modern Turkmenistan, bordering on Parthian land, which explains east Iranian loan words in the Parthian language.





Edited by Zagros - 15 Dec 2010 at 17:06
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Dec 2010 at 12:14
Originally posted by Zagros Zagros wrote:

My humble opinion is that you have to be a philologist to classify languages with any authority, you have to study linguistic characteristics.  That is not to say a reclassification should not take place, simply that it has to be done scientifically.


Zagros, one of my future projects is to study old Persian. Do you have some experts on the field to suggest for reading? Except from the language part, I would like to have some overview on the background of some modern Iranic groups.

Thanks in advance
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Dec 2010 at 19:41
Nop, I haven't formally studied any language.  I did used to be a member of a very interesting forum devoted to all Iranian languages though.  That was about 8 years or so ago.  The forum (iranianlanguages.com) was run by Dr Zurvan who advocated a Latinised Persian alphabet he developed himself called UniPers.  It had sections for discussion of all Iranic languages old and modern.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Dec 2011 at 12:39
Actually, I came across this band called Rastak on youtube who sing songs in the language of most dialects and languages of Iran.  The beginnings of some of the videos show them doing research and then moves on after 2 mins to the actual song.

Mazandarani (Persian dialect) - (this is not the same band as below but one of the most famous folk singers (Sima Bina))
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0ao2dVWljU

Lori - (sister language to Kalhori Kurdish)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mR2KK2CyjK0&feature=related

Gilaki - (Persian dialect)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T43itsRmNbQ&feature=related

Azari (Torki)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfcGW63_d3U&feature=related

Kurdish (Kalhori)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDSrFEabqws&feature=related

Khorasani (Persian)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wljz9RX_jLo&feature=related

Bakhtiari (Persian dialect)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePfIK1LLht4&feature=related

Balochi
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lbDdusaaO1U&feature=related

My personal favourites are the Lori, Gilaki and the Balochi one.






Edited by Zagros - 02 Dec 2011 at 12:48
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Harburs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Dec 2011 at 13:17
Hey Zigi, you made my day with these links. Thank you! what great music. I loved Kurdi and Azari songs.
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