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Monotheism and violence

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JPCC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JPCC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jan 2012 at 20:55
Yes you can : Christians (or Muslims) have very often compelled Jews to abandon their religion and adopt Christianism (or Islam).

But even if you limit the question to the destruction of polytheists' gods, polytheists of one religion (Persian for instance)  could have destroyed other polytheists' gods. But  it never happened (except of course when for instance Xerxes razed Athens to the ground, temples were not preserved!)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jan 2012 at 21:15
Originally posted by JPCC JPCC wrote:

Yes you can : Christians (or Muslims) have very often compelled Jews to abandon their religion and adopt Christianism (or Islam).
Are you sure? I.e. do you have examples? Usually surely, as in Spain, it has been 'convert or leave'. Also I can't recall any cases of Muslims compelling Jews to convert, though I suppose there may be some.
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But even if you limit the question to the destruction of polytheists' gods, polytheists of one religion (Persian for instance)  could have destroyed other polytheists' gods. But  it never happened (except of course when for instance Xerxes razed Athens to the ground, temples were not preserved!)
So never is unjustified then? I already gave some other examples of polytheists destroying the Temple in Jerusalem.
 
All I'm doing here incidentally is suggesting you are overstating your case, not that it has no merit. If you want to say that the Abrahamic religions have historically been more likely to impose their religion on non-Abrahamic religions than the latter have been to impose theirs on the former, you'd probably be right. Non-Abrahamic religions in general aren't particularly proselytising at all.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KayKatz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jan 2012 at 01:22
I read "The Problem of Slavery in Western Culture". It is in English, if that is what you are looking for. It is by David Brion Davis and while the title does emphasize Slavery it definitely touches on some of the aspects of monotheism which allow violence in the more general sense of the word to be perpetrated by and toward individuals. It might be worth looking into. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JPCC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jan 2012 at 08:35
@KayKatz: thanks a lot, I will !!!
@gcle2003 : the answer I made seems to be lost.
Christian Jews forced conversion started with early Church Fathers and developed all over Europe. See for instance Agde Concile in 506. Muslim Jews forced conversion started with Mahomed himself (628).
Never is justified : non-monotheists never destroyed deliberately and specifically gods' temples and statues. Of course when a town was razed to ground (Persepolis, Athen, Jerusalem,...), temples were no excpetion
I don't think I overstate the case : to my knowledge, no other religion called for destroying other's gods to replace them by their own god(s) (I'm speaking of civilisations where writing is developped and books of common use)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jan 2012 at 18:44
Originally posted by JPCC JPCC wrote:


@gcle2003 :
Christian Jews forced conversion started with early Church Fathers and developed all over Europe. See for instance Agde Concile in 506. Muslim Jews forced conversion started with Mahomed himself (628).
Never is justified : non-monotheists never destroyed deliberately and specifically gods' temples and statues. Of course when a town was razed to ground (Persepolis, Athen, Jerusalem,...), temples were no excpetion
I don't think I overstate the case : to my knowledge, no other religion called for destroying other's gods to replace them by their own god(s) (I'm speaking of civilisations where writing is developped and books of common use)
Well you're reducing your claim somewhat by saying you're not including cases where entire towns were destroyed including the temples. However, the Romans who destroyed the temple in 70 CE didn't destroy the town, and cf http://www.nytimes.com/1992/12/07/world/hindu-militants-destroy-mosque-setting-off-a-new-crisis-in-india.html?pagewanted=all , although I'd agree more Muslms have destroyed Hindu temples than Hindus have destroyed mosques..
 
You're also restricting it to not just literate societies but ones where books are common, which weakens the claim still further.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JPCC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Mar 2012 at 23:12
Yes, to my knowledge the Romans did destroy the whole city, see http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Si%C3%A8ge_de_J%C3%A9rusalem_%2870%29, and this was not a Roman decision aiming to impose the Roman gods, but a raction to a revolt against Roman occupation.

If the claim got global acceptance for literate societies  where books are common, I think this would ba already a tremendous progress!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Mar 2012 at 11:39
Both the French and English wikis (and at a guess any others) rely on Josephus' account, which is probably biassed, and anyway includes the claim that over a million Jews were killed in the siege, which certainly seems like hyperbole. Also Jerusalem certainly recovered very fast for a completely destroyed city.
 
However I won't push it since I'm not sure of the situation.
 
The city was of course sacked and pillaged.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fusong Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Mar 2012 at 21:56
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Both the French and English wikis (and at a guess any others) rely on Josephus' account, which is probably biassed, and anyway includes the claim that over a million Jews were killed in the siege, which certainly seems like hyperbole. Also Jerusalem certainly recovered very fast for a completely destroyed city.
 
However I won't push it since I'm not sure of the situation.
 
The city was of course sacked and pillaged.

Yeah like so many other cities in the ancient world I feel bad for Corinth and Carthage
Every ideology has a kernel of truth and sea of whitewash.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JPCC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jun 2014 at 23:05
Obviously, abrahamic religions have not invented violence!
What I want to say is that abrahamic religions have invented a new motivation for violence: destroy by force others' gods, temples, worship objects in order to impose its own go and worship. I don't know of any other religion which would have shown this precise motivation: kill others' gods to replace them by one's own.
Perhaps one exception to that rule : Japanese zen, especially during the XXth century.
Thank you if you can provide other counter examples.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jun 2014 at 14:17
Throughout history, religion has been the root cause of armed conflict, and it's certainly not confined the the Abrahamic religions.
 
The age old conflict between the Abrahamic brands is the fact that, in Christianity, the followers worship a trinity, where the others worship one the single deity.
 
The religions of India are not Abrahamic, but have been in conflict with each other over the centuries.
 
Peculiarly, the Animist and Shamanist doctrines don't seem to have come into conflict per se, that I know of. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Arlington Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jun 2014 at 15:05
Paganistic religionist adherents from their birth through the age of mythical classicism and beyond; epitomized the violence practiced against other faiths.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JPCC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jun 2014 at 17:26
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:


The religions of India are not Abrahamic, but have been in conflict with each other over the centuries.
 

Can you give one historical significative example of this assertion, apart from relationship with islam and before colonial time? If yes,thank you to give the reference of correspondent  historical documents.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JPCC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jun 2014 at 17:36
Originally posted by Arlington Arlington wrote:

Paganistic religionist adherents from their birth through the age of mythical classicism and beyond epitomized the violence practiced against other faiths.

If you put aside the Roman persecutions againts Christians (for which we only have evidence from Christian writers, and which were not againts Christian faith in itself, but against the Christian refusal to participate to the Roman life :to serve n the Romaarmy, and so on;  if you consider that the Christians finally eradicated paganism, you must recognize that Roman fear from Christians was not unjustified), and the fights between Muslims and Hindus and Buddhists, thank you if you can provide a single case of pagan violence against another faith
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fantasus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jun 2014 at 18:24
Originally posted by JPCC JPCC wrote:

Originally posted by Arlington Arlington wrote:

Paganistic religionist adherents from their birth through the age of mythical classicism and beyond epitomized the violence practiced against other faiths.

If you put aside the Roman persecutions againts Christians (for which we only have evidence from Christian writers, and which were not againts Christian faith in itself, but against the Christian refusal to participate to the Roman life :to serve n the Romaarmy, and so on;  if you consider that the Christians finally eradicated paganism, you must recognize that Roman fear from Christians was not unjustified), and the fights between Muslims and Hindus and Buddhists, thank you if you can provide a single case of pagan violence against another faith
What about the ruling japanese elites violent removal (inkluding killing) of christians? Remember here the question is only wether or not there was "violence", not the more or less justification of it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Arlington Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jun 2014 at 19:31
Originally posted by fantasus fantasus wrote:


Originally posted by JPCC JPCC wrote:


Originally posted by Arlington Arlington wrote:

Paganistic religionist adherents from their birth through the age of mythical classicism and beyond epitomized the violence practiced against other faiths.

If you put aside the Roman persecutions againts Christians (for which we only have evidence from Christian writers, and which were not againts Christian faith in itself, but against the Christian refusal to participate to the Roman life :to serve n the Romaarmy, and so on;  if you consider that the Christians finally eradicated paganism, you must recognize that Roman fear from Christians was not unjustified), and the fights between Muslims and Hindus and Buddhists, thank you if you can provide a single case of pagan violence against another faith

What about the ruling japanese elites violent removal (inkluding killing) of christians? Remember here the question is only wether or not there was "violence", not the more or less justification of it.


Astute.

Obsfucation and attempted dissimulation reference justification... thus begs the intent of the post as the sub has developed. But I'll answer
the question posed by JPCC this once.

a. from 200AD on..Roman Christians were the victims of paganistic violence. It included border raids and whole sale invasions vice the Angles-Saxons and Jutes. That history is well known. Research it yourself for details.

b. Charlemagne's reign included his citizens (particularly in the 'lowlands' now the Benelux) being victims of pagan violence; as much as being his personal effort to Christianize the west. See his varying campaigns versus pagan nations. Particularly the Danes.

c. Finally the paganistic raids and invasions of the Vikings; England Ireland, France etc.... prior to their conversions. Of note is that even with conversion as late as 1164....violence between themselves was also commonplace as a result of religious differences.

And your welcome.

Edited by Arlington - 27 Jun 2014 at 19:33
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JPCC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jun 2014 at 23:33
Arlington
I was speaking of pagan violence against other pagan religions. I mentioned  Roman persecutions against Christians because at that time Christianity were a minority. But I thought not meaningful to mention pagan violence once paganism had become a minority, once the emperors (Theodose, Justinien, ...) and the bishops had chased paganism outside Europe and demolished pagan temples. For example, in the case of the Saxons who massacred the other: the Saxons Charlemagne, or Charlemagne the Saxons ? In the end, who survived, the Christians or the Pagans ? Perhaps you think the pagans were so happy to convert to THE true religion? Unfortunately, the reality was different.

When the Vickings attacked  Europe, was it to convert Europe to their own religion, or to conquer European wealth ? What do you mean with "violence between themselves was also commonplace as a result of religious differences" That Vicckings from  different origins fight each other seems rather plausible, but what allows you to say it was for religious grounds?

Fantasus
What were the Christians doing in Japan? Did they not try to convert Japanese people? How did they do that? Dis they always do it without any sort of intrusion or bribery ? If a foreign religion comes to you and wants to convert you, you can accept it, but you can also say : leave me in peace, don't you think ?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jun 2014 at 02:33
Originally posted by JPCC JPCC wrote:

Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:


The religions of India are not Abrahamic, but have been in conflict with each other over the centuries.
 

Can you give one historical significative example of this assertion, apart from relationship with islam and before colonial time? If yes,thank you to give the reference of correspondent  historical documents.
 
Unless I'm mistaken, there has been conflict between the Sikhs and others over centuries.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JPCC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jun 2014 at 08:12
I confess I don't know much about slkhism. From what I read, conflict  arose  mainly against Muslims (an Abrahamic religion)and British (for political reasons I presume). It seems that sikhs were more the victims than the agressors. Moreover Sikhism has much in common with islam. It is monotheistic and condemns idolatry. All this belongs more or less to the "Abrahamic" world, or let us say to those who qualify other religions as idolatric. But thank you to have mentioned it, and to correct me if I'm mistaken.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jun 2014 at 12:49
Originally posted by JPCC JPCC wrote:

I confess I don't know much about slkhism. From what I read, conflict  arose  mainly against Muslims (an Abrahamic religion)and British (for political reasons I presume). It seems that sikhs were more the victims than the agressors. Moreover Sikhism has much in common with islam. It is monotheistic and condemns idolatry. All this belongs more or less to the "Abrahamic" world, or let us say to those who qualify other religions as idolatric. But thank you to have mentioned it, and to correct me if I'm mistaken.
 
That's the problem, the main religions of India are idolatry.
 
And, from what I understand, the Muslims of India don't get along with anyone.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jul 2014 at 03:35
Originally posted by JPCC JPCC wrote:

Please, can we keep the question: has any historian investigated the question (right or wrong) of the incremental religious violence attributable to monotheism ?
Thanks
 
As far as I know, the answer is a resunding NO.
 
To investigate such a topic would call for conclusions which could well rebound on the faith of the investigators and/or their countries.
 
But first, has there in fact been such an incremental increase in violence due to monotheism?
 
And do you include sectarian violence in this, such as Shie versus Sunni, or Protestand versus Catholic?
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Feb 2015 at 05:57
I think that you are missing Hindu nationalism in India, destroying mosques (granted, built on ancient sites of temples), Buddhist radicals in Burma, Sri Lanka, Thailand.  Shintoism fitted quite nicely into Japanese Ultra-nationalism (Greater East Asia Co-prosperity Sphere).  But you're right ancient paganism got along quite well in recognizing each others gods, as aspects of their gods.

It may be off your path, but you might look at Judaism, and other Abrahamic religions, as the extension of something called a suzerainty-vassal treaty.  A suzerainty-vassal treaty is how a great King makes peace with lesser kings.  In making the treaty, the great King also has control over who the lesser kings can make a treaty with.  In a way, the Mosaic covenant is a suzerainty-vassal treaty between YHWH and the Hebrew peoples.  Such a treaty makes it harder to make other treaties between the chosen people and others.  Of course, if you accept Higher Criticism, then this is probably not quite historical, but a projection back into the past from the time of David or even the time of the destruction of the first temple.  What it means though is that going into the Babylonian exile, the Israelites, through making this kind of superstrong identity (retroactively), was able to survive the exile, as a people, and later on, survive the despora as a people, until today.
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