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Mossad assasinations

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    Posted: 27 Feb 2010 at 11:31

Just more than a week ago a Palestinian Hamas leader was assassinated in Dubai Hotel, the assassins who were more than 25 persons used fake passports from different countries were identified by Dubai police.
just search for it to read more.

since Hamas is regarded as terrorist group by Israel, the US and some European countries, does that give those countries the right to assassin any member of that group?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Feb 2010 at 13:16
I am not getting into that quicksand, but (since you brought this up), what makes anyone think Mossad needs 25 people to whack someone?  The more false identities, the harder it will be to ever pinpoint anybody.
 
Reality, tragically, is not cognizant of our sensibilities.  "Right" or not, there is deterrance in operations such as this.  The Munich killers might testify to that - if any of them were still alive.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote azimuth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Feb 2010 at 13:35
Originally posted by pikeshot1600 pikeshot1600 wrote:

I am not getting into that quicksand, but (since you brought this up), what makes anyone think Mossad needs 25 people to whack someone?  The more false identities, the harder it will be to ever pinpoint anybody.
 
 

well at least 11 were caught on camera, their entry into the country checked, all of their passports were fake, why so much to do kill one person? i dont know, they did not have much time for the plan maybe.

the Israelis (media) think its their Mossad and they are upset about how poor was the operation.

but yes, the last news i read was even the photos on the fake passports were photoshopped. to make it similar enough to pass through the gates.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Feb 2010 at 14:38

The Mossad was involved in so many fiascos over the past 15 years they wanted to do the thing right and with little suspission as possible. Of course they underestimated the Dubai police and the operation though successful burned so many agents in the process.

 
Now about the assassination, while I prefer that people should put on trial for supposed crimes they committed, I think if I was in the place of Israel and had to decide I would go with assassination since Syria won't hand him over nor stop his activities. Assassinations are a natural part of clandestine operations and the world of espionage.
 
All intelligence services lost many of their agents this way over the years and didn't weep about them and Hamas shouldn't either. If they didn't see it coming its their fault.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kaysaar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Feb 2010 at 19:21
Isreal has already tested much of the world's patience - but I agree with much of what Al Jassas said.

I'm interested to see how the use of forged passports from other countries will affect Isreal's relationship with those countries. I can't imagine any other government would be enthused about potential implication in such a public hit.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Feb 2010 at 20:26
Hello Kaysaar
 
This is the fourth time since 1997 where Israel is busted for forging documents and passports and running away with it. In some cases the agents were arrested but were not imprisoned or procecuted but released after a slap on the wrist (I think even their identities were kept from the media). With the US supporting every move, Israel can do what it pleases and nobody can say why.
 
As for this operation, the Brits knew about it before hand (the use of British passports that is: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/8523313.stm ) and I won't be surprised if the rest of the countries involved also knew so don't worry, nothing serious will come out of this except maybe the burning of the agents involved.
 
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Edited by Al Jassas - 27 Feb 2010 at 20:27
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Feb 2010 at 20:52
I agree with Al, too.  I think the problem Israel has is that a lot of countries that it might see as a theatre of operation are no longer the impoverished, primitive pushovers they once were. I think it needs to realise and come to terms with this fact and treat other countries with a bit more respect and less arrogance otherwise more embarrassment for its crass and uncivilised ways is imminent.

I think Israel should be punished for its lack of respect for international laws, not so much of the act itself, which is criminal - make no mistake - but more for its disregard in stealing the identities of completely innocent individuals in order to carry out such crimes.

Israel got a slap in the mouth from New Zealand a few years ago too when a couple of its agents were thrown into the slammer for attempting identity theft.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Feb 2010 at 21:31
Originally posted by Zagros Zagros wrote:

I agree with Al, too.  I think the problem Israel has is that a lot of countries that it might see as a theatre of operation are no longer the impoverished, primitive pushovers they once were. I think it needs to realise and come to terms with this fact and treat other countries with a bit more respect and less arrogance otherwise more embarrassment for its crass and uncivilised ways is imminent.

I think Israel should be punished for its lack of respect for international laws, not so much of the act itself, which is criminal - make no mistake - but more for its disregard in stealing the identities of completely innocent individuals in order to carry out such crimes.

Israel got a slap in the mouth from New Zealand a few years ago too when a couple of its agents were thrown into the slammer for attempting identity theft.
 
The Mossad agents were thrown in jail for a couple of months before the Kiwis learned how to behave and released them without even completing half the sentence or even apologising for what happened.
 
As for punishing them for forging documents, then you have to punish all countries around the world. In this case Israel is at no fault, it was Britain and other EU countries that knew that Israel was forging their documents and using them and they said nothing and didn't mind as it appeared from the vehement denial from the PM office (Read Graham's signature and you will understand).
 
It is those countries that have no respect for their own nationals when they allow other countries even if they were allies to use forged documents. Frankly I won't be surprised if these documents were the real deal supplied by the MI-6 to the Mossad in order to carry out the operation.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Feb 2010 at 00:17
The Kiwi's placed diplomatic sanctions on Israel after Mossad was caught trying to acquire New Zealand passports. In my opinion, so should all other countries that have had their passports involved in this.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Feb 2010 at 01:14
Originally posted by Al Jassas Al Jassas wrote:

Originally posted by Zagros Zagros wrote:

I agree with Al, too.  I think the problem Israel has is that a lot of countries that it might see as a theatre of operation are no longer the impoverished, primitive pushovers they once were. I think it needs to realise and come to terms with this fact and treat other countries with a bit more respect and less arrogance otherwise more embarrassment for its crass and uncivilised ways is imminent.

I think Israel should be punished for its lack of respect for international laws, not so much of the act itself, which is criminal - make no mistake - but more for its disregard in stealing the identities of completely innocent individuals in order to carry out such crimes.

Israel got a slap in the mouth from New Zealand a few years ago too when a couple of its agents were thrown into the slammer for attempting identity theft.
 
The Mossad agents were thrown in jail for a couple of months before the Kiwis learned how to behave and released them without even completing half the sentence or even apologising for what happened.
 
As for punishing them for forging documents, then you have to punish all countries around the world. In this case Israel is at no fault, it was Britain and other EU countries that knew that Israel was forging their documents and using them and they said nothing and didn't mind as it appeared from the vehement denial from the PM office (Read Graham's signature and you will understand).
 
It is those countries that have no respect for their own nationals when they allow other countries even if they were allies to use forged documents. Frankly I won't be surprised if these documents were the real deal supplied by the MI-6 to the Mossad in order to carry out the operation.
 
Al-Jassas
 
It is always possible that other clandestine services may have been involved, but I don't think Mossad trusts anyone.  Why should they?
 
When a number of years ago, the Canadian engineer who was building some fantastic delivery system for Iraq was assassinated in Belgium, suspicion was laid on Mossad because of the technique involved, but it might have been Iranian, or even Iraqi, intelligence who killed him.  IIRC, there was no official denial from anyone.  Regardless, it became good deterrance publicity for Mossad.  Personally I don't think Mossad would have hesitated to eliminate someone who Israel saw as a threat to Israeli security.
 
Conspiracy theories have remarkable "half-lives," but the more actors are involved, the harder to keep secrets.  It could have been MI-6, or CIA or the DGSE, but it probably wasn't.
 
   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Parnell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Feb 2010 at 12:24
The bastards used Irish passports. Now its personal.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Feb 2010 at 13:29
Brings a whole other meaning to 'it could be you', eh? Joking aside, indeed it is personal.  It's one thing murdering state enemies it's quite another when government agencies steal the identities of innocents worldwide for the purpose.

I think such acts make a complete mockery of international norms and, intelligence services should be brought to bear for such activities, they cannot be allowed to act above the law... especially if they are agencies of foreign governments who couldn't give a monkeys about our national interests in any case.  Giving ambassadors a slap on the wrists is simply not good enough. Sanctions are appropriate, however the conflict of interest some ministers have in these instances makes that unlikely.

It's a sorry state of affairs when we even have the government here now, criticising the judiciary for pointing the finger at MI-5 for complicity in torture.


Edited by Zagros - 28 Feb 2010 at 13:30
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Feb 2010 at 17:44
Ah, for the good old days when the Israelis simply "kidnapped" so as to hold a public trial for "war crimes"! Of course, the rejoinder here would be that following kosher international judicial procedures would be ludicrous. Imagine the reaction from Dubai or any other Arab state to the proferring of an international warrant for the arrest of a "known" terrorist or para-military!
 
It is soap opera folks, as is all this tear-shedding over "passports"...you do not need the cooperation of any government in order to generate "false" papers. Counterfeit docs are as common as phony US $100 bills! Any government can falsify "official paper" of any type.
 
Perhaps the Mossad should be consulted with regard to the current hunt for Osama? For all we know there might already be an "agent" in places somewhere in the Hindu Kush!Shocked


Edited by drgonzaga - 28 Feb 2010 at 17:47
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Feb 2010 at 18:47

Well here is the thing Doc, did the Israelis even bother issuing a warrent in the first place?

Syria certainly won't hand him but China, India, Singapore and the many other countries he travelled to by both his real and assumed identities would give him up. Egypt jailed him for a while and was prepared to hand him but the Israelis failed to provide evidence that he committed any crime (other than being part of Hamas which in itself isn't a crime according to the Israelis themselves).
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Feb 2010 at 18:51
There's simply no excuse for state sanctioned common criminality.


Edited by Zagros - 28 Feb 2010 at 18:54
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Feb 2010 at 23:04
Whoa, folks! I am not "sanctioning" the antics of these Israeli hotshots with an "M" complex. I was simply underscoring how nonsensical all the pious talk over "forged" documents really is when you get right down to it. In a way, it is almost comic theatre at times akin to the old Prohias comic strip that ran in Mad Magazine for decades: Spy vs. Spy. As for the passport caper, just think of it as one of the more inconvenient legacies of Empire and the British--not to mention the current character of international emigration.
 
Which brings to mind the comic aspects of the current crop of "terrorist trials" in American criminal courts. Have you ever thought just how ludicrous "home grown" American muslims really are when they adopt some form of regional dress to mark them as "Islamic", as if the practice of the Islamic faith required the wearing of some peasant costume from Kandahar!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Mar 2010 at 10:50
Mossad's assassinations are carried out in blatant violation of all conventions and are a sure sign of Israel overreaching itself. Of course, these trespasses are the rule rather than the exception in this business, but in the long term I believe it will weaken Israel's position.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Mar 2010 at 15:42
Could it be that too many KGB agents have emigrated to Israel since the 1980s? The paranoia that the "enemy are all around us" does produce highly questionable reactions, but in this age of "freedom fighters" and terror as a weapon for the expression of civil discontent (or an arm of international politics) a delineation of the "acceptable" becomes a card game aboard a ship of fools. What has scared the bejeezus out of me in recent years has been the expression of support for Israel as a religious duty within the American political environment as expressed by the Fundamentalist whackoes. This "conversion" has been strong enough even to silence or thwart the peace activists in the American Jewish community in their lobbying on this side of the Atlantic. Unfortunately, the international debate on "terrorism" (and the justifications of a carte blanche as proper reaction) has further complicated matters. In a way we are reaping the bitter crop of the diplomatic seed planted by the Camp David Accords that resolved nothing but generated grand theatre.

Edited by drgonzaga - 02 Mar 2010 at 15:20
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It's getting to the point where opposition to Israel's blatant disregard is generating grassroots opposition:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8544642.stm

Good on them for sticking up for their country's sovereignty and demanding to be treated with due respect. This attitude of "all that matters is me, so screw everyone else" is getting insulting.

Politicians at the top end of the spectrum will talk a lot but do nothing in reality. So I commend this little town for having the gonads to do what the upper echelons of the political system will not.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Mar 2010 at 15:35
Need we utter the adjective, Orwellian? The failure of the Israeli political establishment to honor its own secularist heritage and the consolidation of its state under the principles of International Law has been one of the most confounding consequences of near contemporary events. What is most interesting has been the evolution of reactionary agression and a siege mentality that justifies all as a consequence of Israeli immigration policies of the last 30 years. Perhaps an analysis of the Likud phenomenon in Israeli politics would yield some points for further discussion?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Mar 2010 at 16:31
Hello Doc
 
The poblem when it comes to Israel isn't the Likud or the Labour or whatever party rules. There has been a very strong shift to the righ in Israeli politics ever since the 1990s. The Likud of 1979 which made peace with Egypt would be considered today to the left of the Labour.
 
The main reason for this shift is that when Reagan came, Israeli politicians found an American administration more Israeli than they were. Also the demographic shift by that added 1 million ex-soviet jews who want land just as bad as the Palestinians didn't help either. What makes it even worse zionists organizations which has long championed peace (a Pax Israelia to be more specific) were hijacked by extremist jews especially in the US. AIPAC which gave Martin Indyk and other negotiators who brought on the Oslo agreements is now headed by people who invite guys like Hagee, who oppose any kind of settlement and call for outright expulsion of Palestinians, to be their keynote speakers in their annual meetings.
 
Naturally Israel caught on the wave fast and began to act like a spoiled child knowing that it would be actually awarded rather than disciplined. When Jonathan Pollard was caught few people ever disputed his guilt then yet when Israel committed far more dangerous acts against the US national security (like selling a advanced AEW&C systems developed in the US to China despite pledging not to) goes unpunished and even under the rug.
 
If there is any phenomena that needs to be studies its Joe the Plumber. Why On God's earth would a guy from Ohio be more interested in the fate of Israel, a country 10k kms from where he lives, than the economy or welfare of his own nation and in town hall meeting after the other gets questions about how will Obama's election will affect that nation and not about why the economy is the way it is.
 
Al-Jassas 
 


Edited by Al Jassas - 02 Mar 2010 at 16:33
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Mar 2010 at 17:52
Don't blame "Joe the Plumber", he's probably Catholic and doesn't give a hang about Israel or the End of Days and instead focus on "Bible Belt Billy" and Televangelism (they can be reached with "money"). The Apocalyptic mentality plays well on the "inevitability" of conflict with the godless. And as for your view on the Likud, all I can say is et tu? Al Jassas? You too fall for the notion that Begin was willing to discuss the "alienation" of Judea and Samaria? If you do not understand the bitterness of Jimmy Carter over subsequent Israeli actions, it stems directly from his understanding of betrayal at the hands of the Likud. There was never any intention of releasing Israeli domination over the West Bank and the Israelis counted upon the likes of Hamas to save them from any pliancy with regard to the PLO.
 
By the way, your mention of Indyk (and the Brookings I.) merit the introduction of this recent assessment from his end:
 
 
As for that character known as John Hagee, he is the classic version of what I meant by Bible Belt Billy and so that readers might understand, here is link that exposes his background:
 
 
Even Protestant groups (and this PFO organization is old-line American basic bible thumping) are uneasy over these aspects of televangelism.
 
You also mentioned AIPAC, which in a sense because of its "history" has also provoked a bitter reaction in American Jewry, and have attached a sort of dominance to it within the American political circus. In a way, their actions have provoked a backlash. Here is an example:
 


Edited by drgonzaga - 02 Mar 2010 at 22:06
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Seko- Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Mar 2010 at 20:54
Interesting topic and sensible angles AJ and doc. Look forward to each post.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Buckskins Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Mar 2012 at 17:01
Israel has the right to hunt down any terrorist that is, or potentially is, a threat to their security. If governments refuse to turn them over, then the Mossad has the answer. It's a different tune when the terrorists are terrorized.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ribbaud Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Nov 2012 at 10:10
Originally posted by Buckskins Buckskins wrote:

Israel has the right to hunt down any terrorist that is, or potentially is, a threat to their security. If governments refuse to turn them over, then the Mossad has the answer. It's a different tune when the terrorists are terrorized.


So we're to trust to paranoia when determining who is and who is not a potential threat? That guy's looking at me funny, I think he's a potential threat soI'll kill him now, just in case. Wacko

The person one government accuses of terrorism might be considered a respected politician by the rest of the world. Nelson Mandella was a terrorist in the eyes of the South African government, for example.
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