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Native languages of Montenegro

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    Posted: 18 Jun 2014 at 04:40
Here's a recently-made map according to the latest population census (2011): 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jun 2014 at 06:04
Yugoslav:
Unfortunately the map is too small to make out what it contains.
 
Also, you might like to consider adding some comment of your own so that the topic may be discussed, debated or whatever.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Yugoslav Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jun 2014 at 19:18
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Yugoslav:
Unfortunately the map is too small to make out what it contains.
 
Also, you might like to consider adding some comment of your own so that the topic may be discussed, debated or whatever.

Is this better? 


As for the comment, according to the census, there's a drastic difference between the ethnic and linguistic structure - Montenegro has got a Montenegrin ethnic majoriy, but a Serbian linguistic one. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jun 2014 at 03:31
Yugoslav:
Yes thanks, much better.
 
I find it interesting that the Montenegrin language is drastically in the minority in Montenegro.
 
How is it that the language is in the minority, yet the ethnicity is the highest?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Yugoslav Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Aug 2014 at 17:46
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Yugoslav:
Yes thanks, much better.
 
I find it interesting that the Montenegrin language is drastically in the minority in Montenegro.
 
How is it that the language is in the minority, yet the ethnicity is the highest?

Because the population still didn't yet accept the idea of Montenegrin as a separate language, i.e. the native language of Montenegro, at least not fully. 

That is expected to change in the future and the authorities are working on that, to expand the number of Montenegrin-language-speaking population (just like e.g. with the NATO). 


Edited by Yugoslav - 17 Aug 2014 at 17:48
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Aug 2014 at 03:20
Originally posted by Yugoslav Yugoslav wrote:

Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Yugoslav:
Yes thanks, much better.
 
I find it interesting that the Montenegrin language is drastically in the minority in Montenegro.
 
How is it that the language is in the minority, yet the ethnicity is the highest?

Because the population still didn't yet accept the idea of Montenegrin as a separate language, i.e. the native language of Montenegro, at least not fully. 

That is expected to change in the future and the authorities are working on that, to expand the number of Montenegrin-language-speaking population (just like e.g. with the NATO). 
 
I wonder if those Serbian speaking Montenegrans are actually second or third generation Serbs?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Yugoslav Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Aug 2014 at 15:23
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Originally posted by Yugoslav Yugoslav wrote:

Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Yugoslav:
Yes thanks, much better.
 
I find it interesting that the Montenegrin language is drastically in the minority in Montenegro.
 
How is it that the language is in the minority, yet the ethnicity is the highest?

Because the population still didn't yet accept the idea of Montenegrin as a separate language, i.e. the native language of Montenegro, at least not fully. 

That is expected to change in the future and the authorities are working on that, to expand the number of Montenegrin-language-speaking population (just like e.g. with the NATO). 
 
I wonder if those Serbian speaking Montenegrans are actually second or third generation Serbs?

Well pretty much most of them are indeed nationally-declared Serbs; the minor composition is the Montenegrin populace. Roughly speaking, about a 150,000 of them are Serbs, and ca. 100,000 Montenegrins. 

Here's the ethnic map for a comparison: 



Edited by Yugoslav - 19 Aug 2014 at 15:23
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Aug 2014 at 06:26
So are these people who have been born in Montenegro to Serbian parents, or have they migrated to Montenegro?
 
Having regard to what happened in Bosnia-Herzegovnia, I would be more than a bit concerned if we were outnumbered in our own country.
 
Is there any ethnic tension between the two main groups?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Yugoslav Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Aug 2014 at 17:04
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

So are these people who have been born in Montenegro to Serbian parents, or have they migrated to Montenegro?

Save for perhaps a community of Serb refugees from Croatia, Bosnia and Kosovo, pretty much all of the rest are born and raised in MNE.

Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Having regard to what happened in Bosnia-Herzegovnia, I would be more than a bit concerned if we were outnumbered in our own country.

There is a linguistic Serbian majority; Serbs themselves do not ountumber the Montenegrins. 

Danger of such scale however in MNE doesn't exist, since both nations share the same religion (Eastern Orthodox Christianity). 

Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Is there any ethnic tension between the two main groups?

Almost every day. It's such a tiresome bore that a large number of the population is tired from all the disputes of the Montenegrin national question, although the sharp division of the polarized society still persists. There was some civil unrest in the country during the 1990s, and then the division persisted on during the first years of the 21st century on whether MNE should maintain a Yugoslav state with Serbia or become independent just like the rest of the countries. The results of the 2006 referendum showed such drast contrast between the different halves of the people of Montenegro - one for it and the other against. And then in 2007 there was the rather controversial adoption of a new constitution, which replaced Serbian as the official language of the state with Montenegrin. 

The latest and biggest unrest was in 2008, when the Montenegrin government decided to jointly with FYROM recognize Kosovo's unilateral declaration of independence (as part of the pro-independence camp's desires to fight back Serbia's vote in UN GA, which posed the question of legality of Kosovo's UDI to the International Court of Justice). It was a bit violent. 


Over the years, there has been some pacification, but the Ukrainian issue has lit some sparks again. That is actually the reason why I posted this thread; there are many Montenegrins who are aware of their country's politcally fragile situation (despite all the social stability and internal appearance). Although some people continuously thought MNE is only teporarily a divided society, as years goes by it seems that it's slowly turning into a perpetual frozen conflict. 

It is also the reason why the government is so viciously pro-Western; they want to get into the EU and NATO as fast as they can - and that is even with the majority of the population against NATO membership. For years already the government has invested loads of money in the "campaign for NATO", during which it has been trying to convince the populace to start favoring NATO membership, as Washington replied that as long as the polls are negative, they won't go further with the steps. The country's a bit controversial long-term leader Milo Djukanovic thinks that if he puts his strongly strongly along the West, any threats of national integrity and potential instability will be prevented and stopped that way. 

MNE is the Slavic country to show the sharpest criticism of Russia after Poland. Not only have they jumped in immediately at all sanctions against Russia and stood on a firm ground of support of Ukraine, the MNE authorities actually demand sharper against against Putin. This is considered a very risky move that hopefully the West will appreciate and award MNE with faster Euro-Atlantic integration, because of two reasons: 
1) Economical: MNE's economy is by large under Russian influence. Russia is by large its main trading partner and pretty much the greatest portion of all
2) Traditional: MNE is a historical friend of RUS and basically it's biggest foreign ally. This is an intense friendship in the cultural sense that has been lasting in a continuous period for at least three centuries, with only political disputes coming in short period of time due to Yugoslav clashes with Soviet policy. The majority of the country's population opposes such a harsh treatment of Russia and is a bit disappointed by this decision. 
So in case the gamble doesn't pay out well (and MNE's leader is a political genius that handles all of his calculations with immense care and planning), it could prove to be horrendously detrimental to the Montenegro. 

Oh, and I forgot to mention when we were discussing about these Montenegrin-Serbian tensions; the Montenegrins mostly vote for the ruling coalition, and the Serbs mostly for the opposition. Always. There are also virtually no Serbs in the government and administration or important public institutions. The ruling coalition has over the years repeatedly received criticism since the constitution of 2007 has, for the sake of stability, promised proportional representation to all national communities in the country. However, as of 2014 there's still an ethnic majorization as virtually everyone is Montenegrin (some 90%, while Montenegrins form 45% of the population). In some cases there are even more of other minorities than the Serbs. 

And just to add one more thing, (although I've already turned this far too long) the most recent report of the committee observing the implementation of the European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages had officially inquired the Montenegrin authorities to clarify the status of the Serbian language in Montenegro, postponing any analysis or decision on it prior to the government's official reply, due to its status being rather unclear and quite confusing (namely, it is a majority language, enjoying a legally and constitutionally minority status). Though this is effectively an international confirmation that a "Serb Question in Montenegro" indeed exists, the ruling coalition plan is to over the years convert as much Serbian-speakers over to the Montenegrin linquistic community (at least among the Serbophone Montenegrin group) in order to replace the majority language, before this becomes an issue and gets internationalized. 


Edited by Yugoslav - 20 Aug 2014 at 17:06
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eetion Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Aug 2014 at 19:39
Originally posted by Yugoslav Yugoslav wrote:

Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Is there any ethnic tension between the two main groups?
Almost every day

Interesting.

I have a few question

*The division of Serbs and Montenegrins, When? Which century?

*Is there any Muslim or Catholic Montenegrins?

*Is there any ethnic group who calls themselves as muslim in Montenegro like in Bosna?  

*Turks of Montenegro? Do you know anything?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turks_in_Montenegro




Edited by Eetion - 20 Aug 2014 at 19:40
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote Yugoslav Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Aug 2014 at 23:50
Originally posted by Eetion Eetion wrote:

*The division of Serbs and Montenegrins, When? Which century?

Well if you're referring to precise the official split of the nations, then the answer is: mid-20th century, in the Second World War. As a result of the war, and considering the partisan national liberation struggle, the Montenegrins were in 1945 declared one of the five nations of Yugoslavia and received their own autonomous national federal unit. 

Originally posted by Eetion Eetion wrote:

*Is there any Muslim or Catholic Montenegrins?

Maybe a few Roman Catholics, but on the level of a marginal error. A handful are Muslims, yes. 

A much more significant community are the "Ethnic Muslims" - Muslims in the national context - and they mostly belong to the Montenegrin linguistic community. 

Here's the religious map: 



Originally posted by Eetion Eetion wrote:

*Is there any ethnic group who calls themselves as muslim in Montenegro like in Bosna?

I replied this to the above. If you refer to the ethnic map I've posted on this thread, you can actually see the municipalities with an ethnic Islamic majority - as well as those majorily populated by Bosniaks

Originally posted by Eetion Eetion wrote:

*Turks of Montenegro? Do you know anything?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turks_in_Montenegro

There's around a hundred of them, as the article says. I do not know any specifics pertinent to their national heritage if you're asking me that, but I can try to find something. Due to their fate and the way history went on, as well as the fact that they are such a tiny and territorially dispersed community, I do believe that they haven't received much attention from ethnologists and anthropologists, so I cannot promise I'll get any truly concrete data. 


Edited by Yugoslav - 20 Aug 2014 at 23:52
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Aug 2014 at 02:11
Jugoslav:
Thanks for some interesting posts.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Yugoslav Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Aug 2014 at 14:16
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Jugoslav:
Thanks for some interesting posts.

I'll put a comparison between that population census and the previous one (2003): 

Originally posted by Yugoslav Yugoslav wrote:





Edited by Yugoslav - 21 Aug 2014 at 14:16
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Aug 2014 at 02:50
Jugoslav: Thanks again.
 
Australia having no land borders with any other country, it's little bit difficult for me to understand a country with such a high proportion of "foreign speaking" people within your boundaries.
 
And there's nothing that the government can realistically do about it, even if it wanted to.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Yugoslav Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Aug 2014 at 12:35
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Jugoslav: Thanks again.
 
Australia having no land borders with any other country, it's little bit difficult for me to understand a country with such a high proportion of "foreign speaking" people within your boundaries.

However, you have to realize that the only real linguistic minority, in scientific terms, is the Albanian one (and also the Romani population, however they are mostly bilingual and territorially dispersed). All of these other speakers use a Central South Slavic form of speech that was once in the past (from the early 19th century to the 1990s dissolution of Yugoslavia) known as - and still today in some literature is - as "the Serbo-Croatian language". The people speaking in Serbian, Montenegrin, Bosnian, Bosniak (note that they are actually classified diffirently) and Croatian all perfectly understand each other with no necessity of any sort of translation. 

So this division can perhaps be more considered a political one, being the result of a resurgence of the 19th century national romanticism, a principle according to which every community has its own language (regardless of the way they actually speak. 

The situation of all these different "languages" is perhaps akin to the relation between Portuguese and Galician (or, for that matter, our languages are probably even closer than that example). 

Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

And there's nothing that the government can realistically do about it, even if it wanted to.

What do you mean precisely by that? 


Edited by Yugoslav - 22 Aug 2014 at 12:39
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Aug 2014 at 15:06
Jugoslav:
What I meant is:-
  1. The Serbian speakers are in the majority, and, it appears by a wide margin;
  2. The government cannot force the Serbian speakers to speak only Montenegran, can they.

I meant nothing offensive by my comments.



Edited by toyomotor - 22 Aug 2014 at 15:07
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Yugoslav Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Aug 2014 at 20:43
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Jugoslav:
What I meant is:-
  1. The Serbian speakers are in the majority, and, it appears by a wide margin;
  2. The government cannot force the Serbian speakers to speak only Montenegran, can they.

I meant nothing offensive by my comments.


I didn't interpret anything as offensive, no worries. Smile

However, that which you wrote is not so true. Observe the changes between the 2003 and 2011 maps. 
It is mostly expected that by 2021, when the next census is handled, Montenegrin and Serbian switch places. Some unofficial polls already show that Montenegrin is very close to attaining that position. 

That is why that pro-Montenegrin campaign exists and has been handled over the past decade. It has been successful in pushing the Serbian linguistic community down from an absolute to an only relative majority. 


Edited by Yugoslav - 23 Aug 2014 at 21:15
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Aug 2014 at 03:18
Originally posted by Yugoslav Yugoslav wrote:

Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Jugoslav:
What I meant is:-
  1. The Serbian speakers are in the majority, and, it appears by a wide margin;
  2. The government cannot force the Serbian speakers to speak only Montenegran, can they.

I meant nothing offensive by my comments.


I didn't interpret anything as offensive, no worries. Smile

However, that which you wrote is not so true. Observe the changes between the 2003 and 2011 maps. 
It is mostly expected that by 2021, when the next census is handled, Montenegrin and Serbian switch places. Some unofficial polls already show that Montenegrin is very close to attaining that position. 

That is why that pro-Montenegrin campaign exists and has been handled over the past decade. It has been successful in pushing the Serbian linguistic community down from an absolute to an only relative majority. 
 
That can only be a good thing for the country.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Yugoslav Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Aug 2014 at 11:06
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Originally posted by Yugoslav Yugoslav wrote:

Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Jugoslav:
What I meant is:-
  1. The Serbian speakers are in the majority, and, it appears by a wide margin;
  2. The government cannot force the Serbian speakers to speak only Montenegran, can they.

I meant nothing offensive by my comments.


I didn't interpret anything as offensive, no worries. Smile

However, that which you wrote is not so true. Observe the changes between the 2003 and 2011 maps. 
It is mostly expected that by 2021, when the next census is handled, Montenegrin and Serbian switch places. Some unofficial polls already show that Montenegrin is very close to attaining that position. 

That is why that pro-Montenegrin campaign exists and has been handled over the past decade. It has been successful in pushing the Serbian linguistic community down from an absolute to an only relative majority. 
 
That can only be a good thing for the country.

And that opens up the question what is a country. Is a country not constituted by its own people, ergo Montenegrins, Serbs, Bosniaks and all others that live in MNE in this specific example? 

How can something be good if it based against the majority of a nation's populace - ergo the country
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Aug 2014 at 17:14
Originally posted by Yugoslav Yugoslav wrote:

Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Originally posted by Yugoslav Yugoslav wrote:

Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Jugoslav:
What I meant is:-
  1. The Serbian speakers are in the majority, and, it appears by a wide margin;
  2. The government cannot force the Serbian speakers to speak only Montenegran, can they.

I meant nothing offensive by my comments.


I didn't interpret anything as offensive, no worries. Smile

However, that which you wrote is not so true. Observe the changes between the 2003 and 2011 maps. 
It is mostly expected that by 2021, when the next census is handled, Montenegrin and Serbian switch places. Some unofficial polls already show that Montenegrin is very close to attaining that position. 

That is why that pro-Montenegrin campaign exists and has been handled over the past decade. It has been successful in pushing the Serbian linguistic community down from an absolute to an only relative majority. 
 
That can only be a good thing for the country.

And that opens up the question what is a country. Is a country not constituted by its own people, ergo Montenegrins, Serbs, Bosniaks and all others that live in MNE in this specific example? 

How can something be good if it based against the majority of a nation's populace - ergo the country
 
Well of course "country" is a political construct, to define the people who live within a specified set of borders-and also the geophysical and social layouts.
 
What I meant was that if there is political tension among the makor linguistic groups, and slowly but surely the nationals-Montenegran speakers are gaining the ascendancy, shouldn't that reduce those tensions?
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Yugoslav Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Aug 2014 at 18:55
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Originally posted by Yugoslav Yugoslav wrote:

Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Originally posted by Yugoslav Yugoslav wrote:

Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Jugoslav:
What I meant is:-
  1. The Serbian speakers are in the majority, and, it appears by a wide margin;
  2. The government cannot force the Serbian speakers to speak only Montenegran, can they.

I meant nothing offensive by my comments.


I didn't interpret anything as offensive, no worries. Smile

However, that which you wrote is not so true. Observe the changes between the 2003 and 2011 maps. 
It is mostly expected that by 2021, when the next census is handled, Montenegrin and Serbian switch places. Some unofficial polls already show that Montenegrin is very close to attaining that position. 

That is why that pro-Montenegrin campaign exists and has been handled over the past decade. It has been successful in pushing the Serbian linguistic community down from an absolute to an only relative majority. 
 
That can only be a good thing for the country.

And that opens up the question what is a country. Is a country not constituted by its own people, ergo Montenegrins, Serbs, Bosniaks and all others that live in MNE in this specific example? 

How can something be good if it based against the majority of a nation's populace - ergo the country
 
Well of course "country" is a political construct, to define the people who live within a specified set of borders-and also the geophysical and social layouts.
 
What I meant was that if there is political tension among the makor linguistic groups, and slowly but surely the nationals-Montenegran speakers are gaining the ascendancy, shouldn't that reduce those tensions?
 
 

Perhaps if we are talking about the outcome - but the process is the actual cause of tensions, i.e. leading to their escalation. And any final outcome cannot be observed singularily without the actual process that leads to it (by which means it is coming down to the the ends justify the means philosophy, which reached its pinnacle in Yugoslavia in the 1990s and ethnic cleansing for the cause of the good of the nation). 

The downfall of the Serbian linguistic minority and political position in the society of the Serb populace is making that national minority ever-more pressed to react. In case of some of the others, the authorities are buying pacification, but in all cases it is just a short-term solution, with all of the problems being long-term. The radicalization of the Albanian minority (which escalated when the Albanian separate unconstitutional electoral unit was abolished) was countered in 2008 when the country recognized Kosovo's UDI; or trying to pacify the Moslem minority by giving it a new municipality earlier this year. Attemtps to buy the Serbs with some guarantees about the preservation of Serbian language and cultural heritage have only politically been successful; on the societal scale it only contributed to further discord. 

Add to that the threat to regional stability, caused by policy which could be interpreted (in this case especially by the Serbians) as being hostile.


Edited by Yugoslav - 24 Aug 2014 at 19:06
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Aug 2014 at 03:09
I don't want to get drawn into a discussion on Montenegran politics-I don't know anything about the issues or the personalities involved.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Yugoslav Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Aug 2014 at 20:54
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

I don't want to get drawn into a discussion on Montenegran politics-I don't know anything about the issues or the personalities involved.

No knowledge is required. We were discussing on a more philosophical note in general, demanding no specifics about an individual case (in this one, Balkan regional and Montenegrin local politics), with something basically appliable everywhere. 


Edited by Yugoslav - 25 Aug 2014 at 20:55
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