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Neandertal+ homo sapiens= true?

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    Posted: 11 May 2010 at 10:07
 few weeks ago i was on an afrocenterist chat and it was a discusion about human's origin and some one said that actually the purest human race is black african race which has not left africa !and they other races are mix neandertal+ sapiensShocked
is i true that modern human is result of mix with neandertals!!!? except africans!!which are pure human!
actually i suspected that some times, because i am strongly built and   very hairy Unhappy hair on the chest and even on backEmbarrassed. my african friends are saying homo-sapiens came from africa and they were not hairy like youCry
is there any evidence of  neandertal gens in modern people or it is just a speculationQuestion
my humble regards


Edited by kalhor - 11 May 2010 at 10:10
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 May 2010 at 10:38
Originally posted by kalhor kalhor wrote:

 few weeks ago i was on an afrocenterist chat and it was a discusion about human's origin and some one said that actually the purest human race is black african race which has not left africa !and they other races are mix neandertal+ sapiensShocked
is i true that modern human is result of mix with neandertals!!!? except africans!!which are pure human!
actually i suspected that some times, because i am strongly built and   very hairy Unhappy hair on the chest and even on backEmbarrassed. my african friends are saying homo-sapiens came from africa and they were not hairy like youCry
is there any evidence of  neandertal gens in modern people or it is just a speculationQuestion
my humble regards


According to the latest research, non-Africans do share some genetic features with Neanderthals that Africans lack. This admixture apparently occurred during the migration of African humans through Egypt, the Levant or the Arabian peninsula 50-60,000 years ago.

For you African friends to claim that Africans 60,000 years ago were not hairy, I would suggest you demand they present evidence of this. I reckon they are probably just making assumptions without proof here.

As for 'pure' human, what is that? Neanderthals were humans, and a human branch very closely related to homo sapiens so that interbreeding was possible.

If your afrocentric friends are trying to imply that they are a more racially pure and therefore superior form of human, you may beg to differ. The Neanderthal genes obviously didn't get in the way of non-African humans achieving many great things.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote es_bih Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 May 2010 at 10:53
Originally posted by Constantine XI Constantine XI wrote:

Originally posted by kalhor kalhor wrote:

 few weeks ago i was on an afrocenterist chat and it was a discusion about human's origin and some one said that actually the purest human race is black african race which has not left africa !and they other races are mix neandertal+ sapiensShocked
is i true that modern human is result of mix with neandertals!!!? except africans!!which are pure human!
actually i suspected that some times, because i am strongly built and   very hairy Unhappy hair on the chest and even on backEmbarrassed. my african friends are saying homo-sapiens came from africa and they were not hairy like youCry
is there any evidence of  neandertal gens in modern people or it is just a speculationQuestion
my humble regards


According to the latest research, non-Africans do share some genetic features with Neanderthals that Africans lack. This admixture apparently occurred during the migration of African humans through Egypt, the Levant or the Arabian peninsula 50-60,000 years ago.

For you African friends to claim that Africans 60,000 years ago were not hairy, I would suggest you demand they present evidence of this. I reckon they are probably just making assumptions without proof here.

As for 'pure' human, what is that? Neanderthals were humans, and a human branch very closely related to homo sapiens so that interbreeding was possible.

If your afrocentric friends are trying to imply that they are a more racially pure and therefore superior form of human, you may beg to differ. The Neanderthal genes obviously didn't get in the way of non-African humans achieving many great things.

Good point sir... not to mention that credible scientist do also note that early humans very likely had a lighter skin-tone due to them being fairly hairy (makes sense after-all) ... and pigmentation changed according to need (i.e. sunlight exposure). 

I don't understand any type of centrists too much Ouch
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 May 2010 at 10:58
Originally posted by es_bih es_bih wrote:

Originally posted by Constantine XI Constantine XI wrote:

Originally posted by kalhor kalhor wrote:

 few weeks ago i was on an afrocenterist chat and it was a discusion about human's origin and some one said that actually the purest human race is black african race which has not left africa !and they other races are mix neandertal+ sapiensShocked
is i true that modern human is result of mix with neandertals!!!? except africans!!which are pure human!
actually i suspected that some times, because i am strongly built and   very hairy Unhappy hair on the chest and even on backEmbarrassed. my african friends are saying homo-sapiens came from africa and they were not hairy like youCry
is there any evidence of  neandertal gens in modern people or it is just a speculationQuestion
my humble regards


According to the latest research, non-Africans do share some genetic features with Neanderthals that Africans lack. This admixture apparently occurred during the migration of African humans through Egypt, the Levant or the Arabian peninsula 50-60,000 years ago.

For you African friends to claim that Africans 60,000 years ago were not hairy, I would suggest you demand they present evidence of this. I reckon they are probably just making assumptions without proof here.

As for 'pure' human, what is that? Neanderthals were humans, and a human branch very closely related to homo sapiens so that interbreeding was possible.

If your afrocentric friends are trying to imply that they are a more racially pure and therefore superior form of human, you may beg to differ. The Neanderthal genes obviously didn't get in the way of non-African humans achieving many great things.

Good point sir... not to mention that credible scientist do also note that early humans very likely had a lighter skin-tone due to them being fairly hairy (makes sense after-all) ... and pigmentation changed according to need (i.e. sunlight exposure). 

I don't understand any type of centrists too much Ouch


Who knows, it is very possible some early African humans had light pigmentation. Large parts of Africa were quite temperate in climate during the Ice Ages and interglacial periods tens of thousands of years ago.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jams Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 May 2010 at 16:08
Originally posted by kalhor kalhor wrote:

 few weeks ago i was on an afrocenterist chat and it was a discusion about human's origin and some one said that actually the purest human race is black african race which has not left africa !and they other races are mix neandertal+ sapiensShocked
is i true that modern human is result of mix with neandertals!!!? except africans!!which are pure human!
actually i suspected that some times, because i am strongly built and   very hairy Unhappy hair on the chest and even on backEmbarrassed. my african friends are saying homo-sapiens came from africa and they were not hairy like youCry
is there any evidence of  neandertal gens in modern people or it is just a speculationQuestion
my humble regards

According to the new study, there are signs of shared ancestry with Neanderthals. Note that the study only included very few modern humans for comparison, and only two African peoples were included, Yoruba and San. The people from outside of Africa they tested were some French people, Chinese and Papuans. I think they have to do a lot more work to figure this out with any certainty, and as I understand, this is a preliminary result of an ongoing research.

Although some of it is slightly dated considering the new DNA results,

As someone else says, it is likely that our ancestors were covered in hair at some point, as this is the case with all other apes, and that the very dark skin and hairlessness of some peoples is a relatively recent adaption.  With hair cover, dark skin isn't really a necessity, and many animals living in the tropics does not have dark skin under the fur, or at all. So the hairiness does not have to originate from the suggested Neanderthal admixture, especially since nobody knows how hairy they were.


Edited by Jams - 11 May 2010 at 16:10
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 May 2010 at 22:22
We're all covered by the same amount of hair per square cm as any other mammal.
"There was glory in pissing, Corabb decided as he watched the stream curve out and make that familiar but unique sound as it hit the ground." So true.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dolphin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 May 2010 at 22:43
Originally posted by Zagros Zagros wrote:

We're all covered by the same amount of hair per square cm as any other mammal.

Amount and density are two different things. Just ask a Polar bear.

Edit: And I'm pretty sure beavers have more hair, follicle by follicle, than we do! Embarrassed


Edited by Dolphin - 11 May 2010 at 22:56
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dolphin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 May 2010 at 22:49
The information is inconclusive. When trying to extract DNA (trying, ie. actively searching for a predetermined best-case conclusion) from bones that may be 40-70 thousand years old, it is extremely difficult not to get some sort of DNA contamination from the examination process. There is no real evidence of interbreeding yet, just a story that has currently more currency than others. That said, it would explain a few Nicolai Valuev's sauntering about the globe here and there!




Edited by Dolphin - 11 May 2010 at 22:51
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 May 2010 at 01:34
Originally posted by Dolphin Dolphin wrote:

Originally posted by Zagros Zagros wrote:

We're all covered by the same amount of hair per square cm as any other mammal.

Amount and density are two different things. Just ask a Polar bear.

Edit: And I'm pretty sure beavers have more hair, follicle by follicle, than we do! Embarrassed


Do you mean thickness? Density in this context is tantamount to amount.   No the thing is most of our hair is too slim and transparent to be noticed, otherwise I am pretty sure it's the same follicle by follicle.  E.g. think of a thick head of hair, it's just as hairy as a beaver's hide and apparently the same density of hair exists all over our body with variance only in thickness and length. 

"There was glory in pissing, Corabb decided as he watched the stream curve out and make that familiar but unique sound as it hit the ground." So true.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote es_bih Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 May 2010 at 01:53
Originally posted by Dolphin Dolphin wrote:

Originally posted by Zagros Zagros wrote:

We're all covered by the same
amount of hair per square cm as any other mammal.


Amount and density are two different things. Just ask a Polar bear.

Edit: And I'm pretty sure beavers have more hair, follicle by follicle, than
we do! 


Unless the beaver is shaved?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jams Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 May 2010 at 02:39
Originally posted by Zagros Zagros wrote:

We're all covered by the same amount of hair per square cm as any other mammal.

Really? So, according to you, every animal has the same amount of hair pr. square cm? Do you have hair on your fore head? Some animals are covered with hair all over their face, but humans are not, and it varies quite a bit. Some people have no hairs on their arms, for example, at least not in a way that the hair "covers" anything.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 May 2010 at 03:08
Yes, I do have hair on my forehead and so do you, unless you have some sort of disease - even bald men still have hair on the place where it looks completely bald, figure that one out. If someone has no hair on their arms it's because they shave it or otherwise remove it.

And... I said mammal, not animal.



Edited by Zagros - 12 May 2010 at 03:12
"There was glory in pissing, Corabb decided as he watched the stream curve out and make that familiar but unique sound as it hit the ground." So true.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dolphin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 May 2010 at 03:12
I'd be willing to wager that a beaver has more hair per square cm than a human, regardless of thickness, density, or otherwise!


Oy: by beaver, I also mean otter, they're similar, right?! Embarrassed


Edited by Dolphin - 12 May 2010 at 03:15
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 May 2010 at 03:13
I think Zagros means the same number of hairs per square cm, including virtually invisible ones. I've got to say when I look in the mirror it doesn't look that way to me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 May 2010 at 03:14
Go to the bookmaker then. 
"There was glory in pissing, Corabb decided as he watched the stream curve out and make that familiar but unique sound as it hit the ground." So true.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 May 2010 at 03:15
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

I think Zagros means the same number of hairs per square cm, including virtually invisible ones. I've got to say when I look in the mirror it doesn't look that way to me.


That's exactly what I mean.  (i.e.) Density - not visibility or thickness.
"There was glory in pissing, Corabb decided as he watched the stream curve out and make that familiar but unique sound as it hit the ground." So true.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dolphin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 May 2010 at 03:24
I disagree. Even if we were to reduce this down to micro-follicles, or cilia I think they're called, we STILL don't have as much as other mammals! If the sea otter is known as the mammal with the densest fur, then where does that leave the suggestion that we have the same amount as other mammals? Other mammals have different amounts to each other! And we've got even less! I'm sorry Zagros, you're either going to have to jump off or go down with the ship Big smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 May 2010 at 04:03
I've gypsy cursed you Dolphin. When you awaken tomorrow every hair on your body will be the same length and thickness as that of a beaver/otter.  Everyone will think you are an overgrown otter and you'll be sorry for your impertinence.
"There was glory in pissing, Corabb decided as he watched the stream curve out and make that familiar but unique sound as it hit the ground." So true.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dolphin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 May 2010 at 04:30
That would be a curse indeed...! I've barely got hair under my arms, never mind chest hair.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jams Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 May 2010 at 04:35
Sorry that I wrote "animals", but is should be pretty obvious that it's mammals.

A quick search on the subject later,


Hair follicle =/= hair.

I quote from the page,
Quote
Redheads have about 90,000 scalp hair follicles. Black, 108,000, while brown and blonde haired people can have up to 140,000. The number of scalp hairs changes with ethnicity too. Far east Asians can have as few as 80,000 scalp hair follicles.

That's variation even within the human species! Granted, it does not actually say "pr square cm", but it's obvious from the rest of the article that there's a variation in density even on an individual basis.

And I wrote, "at least not in a way that the hair "covers" anything", remember?


Edited by Jams - 12 May 2010 at 04:45
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i am sick and tired of genetic . then it is true that we have up to 4% neandertal gensUnhappy then according to dna test having y hg K2 . I AM BOTH ABORIGINALErmm IRANIAN AND HAVE 4% NEANDERTAL GENSCryCry
no wonder my girl friends always called me: my  HAIRY BEASTLOL
 


Edited by kalhor - 12 May 2010 at 04:49
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 May 2010 at 04:57
I think you should pay closer attention to the details in your link because actually, it does state hair fibre density/cm2 and nothing in it contradicts anything I have said unless you want to be anal on word semantics.

Hair fibres are what we're talking about not follicles, because hair follicles reside inside the skin and are not visible.

hair follicles => hair fibres, and I quote:

Quote Hair follicle density is a different thing altogether. Hair follicle density refers to the density of hair follicle structures actually in the skin. At any one time there are more hair follicles than hair fibers as not all hair follicles contain hair fibers due to the growth cycle of the hair follicle. So the hair follicle density in the skin is higher than the density of hair fibers. The follicular density (number of hair follicles/cm2) decreases with age. At birth the follicle density has been shown in one study to be 1135/cm2, 3-12 months = 795/cm2, third decade 615/cm2, and 435/cm2 by 70-80 years of age.


Ergo, this:

Quote Hair color can be taken as a rough guide to hair follicle density. Redheads have about 90,000 scalp hair follicles. Black, 108,000, while brown and blonde haired people can have up to 140,000. The number of scalp hairs changes with ethnicity too. Far east Asians can have as few as 80,000 scalp hair follicles.


does not mean they have more hair on their heads.

Regardless, hair density whether human or other mammalian falls within a density range since no two individuals will have exactly the same number of hairs.  every part of your body except the palms of your hands and your feet are covered in hair, the vast majority are simple invisible to the naked eye.
"There was glory in pissing, Corabb decided as he watched the stream curve out and make that familiar but unique sound as it hit the ground." So true.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 May 2010 at 05:00
Originally posted by kalhor kalhor wrote:

i am sick and tired of genetic . then it is true that we have up to 4% neandertal gensUnhappy then according to dna test having y hg K2 . I AM BOTH ABORIGINALErmm IRANIAN AND HAVE 4% NEANDERTAL GENSCryCry
no wonder my girl friends always called me: my  HAIRY BEASTLOL
 


I was thinking about your genetic test was it the one which is most prolific in Sweden?  My result R1b is the most prolific in the UK.  And from what i remember the test kits were anonymous, so we could simply have been conned by the "labs" using the lowest common Haplogroup denominator instead of actually analysing the swab samples.

"There was glory in pissing, Corabb decided as he watched the stream curve out and make that familiar but unique sound as it hit the ground." So true.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kalhor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 May 2010 at 06:10
actually i had heared from some other guys from same region that  they had same kind of y hg K2 . it seems it is very high amount  both south kurdish and lurish tribemen (very high both in kermanshah and isfahan)even highest among lores . K2=T m70 is much older than aryan and smites and is said to be the hg of aboriginal population in  iran.
 i have discussed this matter with many other guys and it is probably of  eilamite origin , the R1b is very common on northern part of iran and rather high in turkish kurdestan and R1a1 most in eastern iran khorasan. 
the y hg is just a very distant ½ of  the origin there are the other ½ the MTDNA and 100+ generations of mixing with a great variation of peoples living n iran.


Edited by kalhor - 12 May 2010 at 06:12
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 May 2010 at 06:20
Really?  I am going to get another test at some stage to make sure the nat geo was not a fraud.
"There was glory in pissing, Corabb decided as he watched the stream curve out and make that familiar but unique sound as it hit the ground." So true.
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Region/Haplogroup
I
R1a
R1b
G
J2
J1
E
T
L
Q
N
Others

Syria
5
10
13.5
3
17
30
11.5
5
3
0
0
2

Georgia
3.5
9
11
31
24.5
2
4.5
2.5
3
0
0
10.5
Iran
3
16.5
6.5
10
12
10
4.5
3
4
4
2.5
27
Iraq
5
6.5
11
3
27
31
11
7
3
0
0
0

Armenia
4
8
28
11
22
0
5
6
4
0
2
12
Azerbaijan
3
7
11
18
20
12
6
11
0
0
0
15


Kurdistan (Turkey)
25
19.5
8
12.5
7
0
2.5
6.5
0
0
0
18.5


Region/Haplogroup
I1
I2a
I2b
R1a
R1b
G2a
J2
J1
E1b1b
(+L)
Q
N1c1

Turkey
1
4
0.5
7.5
15
11
21
12.5
11
2
2
4

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son of Bavand
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 May 2010 at 06:37
This topic is beginning to overlap with the one on the oil spillage in the Gulf of Mexico.
 
Convergent evolution? Something to do with hair oil?


Edited by gcle2003 - 12 May 2010 at 06:38
Citizen of Ankh-Morpork.

Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jams Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 May 2010 at 00:54
Originally posted by Zagros Zagros wrote:

I think you should pay closer attention to the details in your link because actually, it does state hair fibre density/cm2 and nothing in it contradicts anything I have said unless you want to be anal on word semantics.

Hair fibres are what we're talking about not follicles, because hair follicles reside inside the skin and are not visible.

hair follicles => hair fibres, and I quote:

Quote Hair follicle density is a different thing altogether. Hair follicle density refers to the density of hair follicle structures actually in the skin. At any one time there are more hair follicles than hair fibers as not all hair follicles contain hair fibers due to the growth cycle of the hair follicle. So the hair follicle density in the skin is higher than the density of hair fibers. The follicular density (number of hair follicles/cm2) decreases with age. At birth the follicle density has been shown in one study to be 1135/cm2, 3-12 months = 795/cm2, third decade 615/cm2, and 435/cm2 by 70-80 years of age.


Ergo, this:

Quote Hair color can be taken as a rough guide to hair follicle density. Redheads have about 90,000 scalp hair follicles. Black, 108,000, while brown and blonde haired people can have up to 140,000. The number of scalp hairs changes with ethnicity too. Far east Asians can have as few as 80,000 scalp hair follicles.


does not mean they have more hair on their heads.

Regardless, hair density whether human or other mammalian falls within a density range since no two individuals will have exactly the same number of hairs.  every part of your body except the palms of your hands and your feet are covered in hair, the vast majority are simple invisible to the naked eye.

Well, I think it's you who started with the "anal" thing, because you went semantics on this, by including invisible micro hairs. But! - even in your post you admit that there is a variation, thus it is not the same density in all cases. I wrote that it does not state the actual pr square cm density in the part I quoted, but that it was mentioned elsewhere in the text I linked. For example it mentions the variation in density of the hair on the head.


Remember, you wrote 

Originally posted by Zagros Zagros wrote:

We're all covered by the same amount of hair per square cm as any other mammal.
Quote apparently the same density of hair exists all over our body with variance only in thickness and length.


And the article said:

Quote In adults the sides and back of the scalp may have a hair density as low as 150/cm2. For the crown of the scalp pre-puberty, the density is 250-400 hairs/cm2.


Edited by Jams - 13 May 2010 at 01:00
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 May 2010 at 19:09
Originally posted by kalhor kalhor wrote:

i am sick and tired of genetic . then it is true that we have up to 4% neandertal gensUnhappy then according to dna test having y hg K2 . I AM BOTH ABORIGINALErmm IRANIAN AND HAVE 4% NEANDERTAL GENSCryCry
no wonder my girl friends always called me: my  HAIRY BEASTLOL
 


First of all why all those unhappy faces? Everyone has some Neanderthal inside...And btw, don't you speak an IE languange that you call "Svenska"? Well, it means that around 5000-6000 BC, a part of your ancestors (those who gave you the language you speak) lived in the steppes between Russia and Ukraine, side by side with the partial ancestors of all other Europeans, Iranians, Kurds etc.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kalhor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 May 2010 at 04:28
not everybody!! only the part of humantiy that moved outside africa. which means that the real black africans are pure human and the other are ½ breed like us!
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