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No Gunpowder?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 2011 at 10:37
Originally posted by Styrbiorn Styrbiorn wrote:

Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Ah...the braying of asses in responsive chorus. Carcharadon has a clear track record consolidated by years of outrageous and entirely derisive assertions always substantiated by nebulous "experts" from the realm of agiprop. The marvel here is that you Opus in your brief dalliance in the Forum are set to overtake him in the race for specious and irrelevant cant. Frankly the both of you would have made excellent falangists in the service of one goon named Milan Astray and his war-cry: Muera la inteligencia! (Death to Intelligence!)
 
I have noticed that you and gcle, and in some cases also Styrbiorn disregards the knowledge of experts just for the sake of discussion itself.

What "expert" did I disregard? I don't disregard persons - with very few exceptions! - but when people speak nonsense it should be discarded no matter who said it. Just out of curiousity, name the expert I supposedly disregarded.
 
Well, you and the other two I maentioned have a habit disregard the expertise in different matters, as in the matter how the word ship can be used, where a lot of authors (experts in their fields) use the word in its broad meaning and as a generic term.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 2011 at 10:42
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Originally posted by Styrbiorn Styrbiorn wrote:

Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Ah...the braying of asses in responsive chorus. Carcharadon has a clear track record consolidated by years of outrageous and entirely derisive assertions always substantiated by nebulous "experts" from the realm of agiprop. The marvel here is that you Opus in your brief dalliance in the Forum are set to overtake him in the race for specious and irrelevant cant. Frankly the both of you would have made excellent falangists in the service of one goon named Milan Astray and his war-cry: Muera la inteligencia! (Death to Intelligence!)
 
I have noticed that you and gcle, and in some cases also Styrbiorn disregards the knowledge of experts just for the sake of discussion itself.

What "expert" did I disregard? I don't disregard persons - with very few exceptions! - but when people speak nonsense it should be discarded no matter who said it. Just out of curiousity, name the expert I supposedly disregarded.
 
Well, you and the other two I maentioned have a habit disregard the expertise in different matters, as in the matter how the word ship can be used, where a lot of authors (experts in their fields) use the word in its broad meaning and as a generic term.
What was difficult to understand? Do I have to write in Swedish? WHO is the "expert" I "disregarded"? Random dude you met or unnamed author (expert in his field) doesn't count - especially if you don't say who they are! How else could I even know whether he's an "expert" or not? 

Let me paraphrase your claims:
"I once met an expert who said "water" is a generic term and can mean anything from H2O to milk to liquid nitrogen. If you don't agree you disregard experts and expertise. "





Edited by Styrbiorn - 23 May 2011 at 10:45
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 2011 at 10:46
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

That someone claims to be 'expert' is not necessarily evidence that he is (a) expert or (b) correct. Views put forward by 'experts' are as subject o critical analysis as anything else.
Many fallacious beliefs were originally promulgated by 'experts'.
 
At the same time it is rather presumptous to, without self having the proper basis of knowledge or without having done any real research on certain topics, just disregard the knowledge and claims of people that have researched those topics  for years.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 2011 at 10:56
Originally posted by Styrbiorn Styrbiorn wrote:

What was difficult to understand? Do I have to write in Swedish? WHO is the "expert" I "disregarded"? Random dude you met or unnamed author (expert in his field) doesn't count - especially if you don't say who they are! How else could I even know whether he's an "expert" or not? 
 
 
If you bother to do some searches on for example google schoolar you can see several articles by experts where the word ship is used in a more generic way than the limited one you and glce claimed.
And your claim that people cannot let out their children because of those children being threatened by wolves is also an idea that goes against most knowledge about wolf behaviour.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 2011 at 11:19
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Originally posted by Styrbiorn Styrbiorn wrote:

What was difficult to understand? Do I have to write in Swedish? WHO is the "expert" I "disregarded"? Random dude you met or unnamed author (expert in his field) doesn't count - especially if you don't say who they are! How else could I even know whether he's an "expert" or not? 
 
 
If you bother to do some searches on for example google schoolar you can see several articles by experts where the word ship is used in a more generic way than the limited one you and glce claimed.
And your claim that people cannot let out their children because of those children being threatened by wolves is also an idea that goes against most knowledge about wolf behaviour.
I'm not going to do your work. If you want to cite someone using their expertise to support your claims, be ready to name them! Otherwise do not mention them at all as it is completely pointless.

Quote
And your claim that people cannot let out their children because of those children being threatened by wolves is also an idea that goes against most knowledge about wolf behaviour.
Last month a wolf attacked a mother walking with her child and her dog, killing the dog while the parent ran away with the child. When reality defies the map, the map is still correct?

And please don't put words in my mouth: I never claimed people couldn't let their children out: I  claimed that people feared they couldn't: a fear that obviously is not unfounded.


Edited by Styrbiorn - 23 May 2011 at 11:42
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 2011 at 11:43
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

That someone claims to be 'expert' is not necessarily evidence that he is (a) expert or (b) correct. Views put forward by 'experts' are as subject o critical analysis as anything else.
Many fallacious beliefs were originally promulgated by 'experts'.
 
At the same time it is rather presumptous to, without self having the proper basis of knowledge or without having done any real research on certain topics, just disregard the knowledge and claims of people that have researched those topics  for years.
Claims either stand up to logical or scientific analysis or they don't. If they don't it doesn't matter a damn who the authority is or how long he has spent working on or researching his field. Otherwsie we'd all have to bow our heads before the great Fomenko, as opuslola wold have us do.
 
(And incidentally I've spent much much more time on studying naval history and literature as well as types of vessels than you have: I remember getting a copy of Tait's New Seamanship for my tenth birthday, when it was generally assumed I wold follow my father and uncles to sea.)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 2011 at 11:59
Originally posted by Styrbiorn Styrbiorn wrote:

I'm not going to do your work. If you want to cite someone using their expertise to support your claims, be ready to name them! Otherwise do not mention them at all as it is completely pointless.
 
I have no time to sit and do things that you yourself can do in 10 minutes. I do not have to convince you since I know that I am right. If you want to hold on to false claims it is up to you.
Originally posted by Styrbiorn Styrbiorn wrote:

Last month a wolf attacked a mother walking with her child and her dog, killing the dog while the parent ran away with the child. When reality defies the map, the map is still correct?
 
The wolf attacked  the dog. It never went to any attack against the mother. If it had attacked her she would have been injured since a wolf is a rather strong and big animal. The dog was the factor that provoked the wolves since dogs are seen as copmpetitiors and intruders into the wolves territory.
 
It is typical that some people later wanted to get permission to hunt the wolves in this wolf territory, another proof of the exaggerated fear and aggressive attitude towards the wolves that flourish among certain people.

Originally posted by Styrbiorn Styrbiorn wrote:

And please don't put words in my mouth: I never claimed people couldn't let their children out: I  claimed that people feared they couldn't: a fear that obviously is not unfounded.
 
It is a rather  superstitious and unfounded fear.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 2011 at 12:05
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

 Claims either stand up to logical or scientific analysis or they don't. If they don't it doesn't matter a damn who the authority is or how long he has spent working on or researching his field. Otherwsie we'd all have to bow our heads before the great Fomenko, as opuslola wold have us do.
 
Well, if you in a self righteous way define your own logic than ofcourse all your claim seems logical to you.
 
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

(And incidentally I've spent much much more time on studying naval history and literature as well as types of vessels than you have: I remember getting a copy of Tait's New Seamanship for my tenth birthday, when it was generally assumed I wold follow my father and uncles to sea.)
 
What the heck do you know about that! I have spent a lot of time working together with experts in marine archeology, marine history and limnic archeology. On top of that I have researched marine subsistence and technology in an archaeological persepctive.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 2011 at 12:09
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Originally posted by Styrbiorn Styrbiorn wrote:

I'm not going to do your work. If you want to cite someone using their expertise to support your claims, be ready to name them! Otherwise do not mention them at all as it is completely pointless.
 
I have no time to sit and do things that you yourself can do in 10 minutes. I do not have to convince you since I know that I am right. If you want to hold on to false claims it is up to you.


That's not how it works. If you claim "experts" are saying this and that, it's not MY job to search for those experts, it's YOURS!
If you can't procure the references, I (and mose other people) will simply assume you were lying.

Quote  
 
The wolf attacked  the dog. It never went to any attack against the mother. If it had attacked her she would have been injured since a wolf is a rather strong and big animal. The dog was the factor that provoked the wolves since dogs are seen as copmpetitiors and intruders into the wolves territory.
It's quite obvious you don't have children. No parent with any sort of brains would let their kids out where a dog had been attacked by a wolf.
 
Quote
It is typical that some people later wanted to get permission to hunt the wolves in this wolf territory, another proof of the exaggerated fear and aggressive attitude towards the wolves that flourish among certain people.
Your precious Sami are the by far greatest wolf-killers in this country, but I haven't seen you written anything against that as of yet.
[/QUOTE]
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 2011 at 12:15
Originally posted by Styrbiorn Styrbiorn wrote:

That's not how it works. If you claim "experts" are saying this and that, it's not MY job to search for those experts, it's YOURS!
If you can't procure the references, I (and mose other people) will simply assume you were lying.
 
 
As I said, you can look it up or not, it is up to you. If you do not know about the use of the word ship in the literature than you are obvilusly not very knowledgeable in the subjet and it is meaningless to discuss with you since you just want to obstruct, without having any real clue about what you are talking about.
 
The wolves we can discuss in the other thread.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 2011 at 12:16
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Originally posted by Styrbiorn Styrbiorn wrote:

That's not how it works. If you claim "experts" are saying this and that, it's not MY job to search for those experts, it's YOURS!
If you can't procure the references, I (and mose other people) will simply assume you were lying.
 
 
As I said, you can look it up or not, it is up to you. If you do not know about the use of the word ship in the literature than you are obvilusly not very knowledgeable in the subjet and it is meaningless to discuss with you since you just want to obstruct, without having any real clue about what you are talking about.
 

No. You claimed I disregarded "experts"; now I want to know who these "experts" are. References, please. What I otherwise read is completely irrelevant: I want to know who I supposedly disregarded.


Edited by Styrbiorn - 23 May 2011 at 12:18
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 2011 at 12:35

The experts that use ship in the way I said is legio. A quick search on google schoolar will give you many examples.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 2011 at 13:03
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

The experts that use ship in the way I said is legio. A quick search on google schoolar will give you many examples.

But how the hell can I know if it is the experts YOU are refering to? Do you expect me to make a list, asking, "is it this?", "is it that one?", "how about this one?". It's becoming obvious there are no such experts and you were talking without base.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 2011 at 13:37
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

The experts that use ship in the way I said is legio. A quick search on google schoolar will give you many examples.

You're ignoring the fact that no matter how many examples of wrong usage you find it doesn't make it correct usage.
 
All sorts of words are used wrongly (i.e. without due care and attention to precision) all the time. Think how many times 'fascism' is used wrongly by all sorts of people who don't know how to didtinguish from other totalitarian philosophies.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 2011 at 13:38
You just have to be content with finding out that it is common among experts to use the word  in different ways.

Edited by Carcharodon - 23 May 2011 at 13:41
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 2011 at 13:42
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

[
You're ignoring the fact that no matter how many examples of wrong usage you find it doesn't make it correct usage.
 
Since you have no monopoly on the use of words you can not decide what is correct use.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 2011 at 14:02
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

You just have to be content with finding out that it is common among experts to use the word  in different ways.
You need quotes around 'experts'.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 2011 at 14:10
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

[
You're ignoring the fact that no matter how many examples of wrong usage you find it doesn't make it correct usage.
 
Since you have no monopoly on the use of words you can not decide what is correct use.
 
I can determine which usages blur the issues and which make them clearer and more precise. To take a word with a precise meaning and give it a blurred one with wider scope is regression, not progress.
 
The trouble with your attitude is that it encourages loose thinking and tends to obfuscation and vagueness, not to say mysticism. Since in general you are preaching an essentially religious message, such obfuscation suits your purposes: accurate analysis of what you are saying is an obstacle to your proselytising.
 
You're like the wannabe mathematician who declares only real numbers exist because after all other numbers are imaginary and all sorts of experts use 'imaginary' to mean 'non-existent'.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 2011 at 14:20
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

I can determine which usages blur the issues and which make them clearer and more precise. To take a word with a precise meaning and give it a blurred one with wider scope is regression, not progress.
 
You can ofcourse claim and try to determine what you like, but do not expect that everyone will take you seriously.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 2011 at 14:24
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

You just have to be content with finding out that it is common among experts to use the word  in different ways.

I want to know who I am disregarding in your opinion.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 2011 at 14:29

A lot of expertise in the field. All the experts that use the word ship in a different way than the way of use you and gcle want to restrict it to.



Edited by Carcharodon - 23 May 2011 at 14:32
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 2011 at 14:36
Name them.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 2011 at 14:40
To many to name. Have no time to compile a list.

Edited by Carcharodon - 23 May 2011 at 14:40
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 2011 at 14:45
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

To many to name. Have no time to compile a list.
One or two is enough.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 2011 at 15:15
One can just mention the NAVIS (a project supported by maritime museums in different countries) database that uses the word ship as a generic term for several types of crafts from different time periods in an archaeological context.
 
They also use more specific names depending on type and function but the generic term used is ship as in "List of ships" or "NAVIS ships", or "wrecked ships".
 
Heck, already old Landstroem in his time used the word ship as a kind of generic term in his books The Ship (Skeppet) and Ships of the Pharaohs (Egyptiska skepp).
 
One can always discuss terms and claim that they are used in the right or in the wrong way, but the fact is that a there are terms, like ship, that is used in different ways in the literature.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 2011 at 16:32
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

One can just mention the NAVIS (a project supported by maritime museums in different countries) database that uses the word ship as a generic term for several types of crafts from different time periods in an archaeological context.
 
They also use more specific names depending on type and function but the generic term used is ship as in "List of ships" or "NAVIS ships", or "wrecked ships".
 
Heck, already old Landstroem in his time used the word ship as a kind of generic term in his books The Ship (Skeppet) and Ships of the Pharaohs (Egyptiska skepp).
 
One can always discuss terms and claim that they are used in the right or in the wrong way, but the fact is that a there are terms, like ship, that is used in different ways in the literature.
 
By Great Caesar's Ghost! Life's too short to waste time trying to garland the donkey no matter how  proximate the Feast of the Ass (Vestalia, 15 June).
 
...loaves are hung on asses decked with wreaths, and flowery garlands veil the rough millstones.
Ovid. Fasti Book 6, lines 311-312.
 
Nevertheless, Carch can not even get his repetitive citations right! It is Bjorn Landstrom, the famed Finnish artist, illustrator, writer and yachtsman (d. 2002). His usage of "skeppet" is immaterial other than as a literary inclusive since in his illustrated narrative on the maritime experience [Skeppet. 1961(Eng. trns. 1970)]  he was quite careful in denoting the correct terms for the vessels discussed. Yet, Landstrom is a "secondary" source and in the category of popularizer. Here we are discussing the solidly nautical and why the Carcharadon wants to perorate pointlessly tries the patience of all.
 
And for goodness sakes the NAVIS database!?!
 
 
Besides they are spot on when describing wrecks: The Klastad wreck at Vestfold from the 10th/11th century is identified as a "cargo vessel" [and not cargo "ship"]. Given that this is a History forum we should at least respect the specificity of the discipline.
 

 
Honi soit qui mal y pense
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 2011 at 19:00
LOL, three pages arguing about the correct usage of the words, vessel, ship, etc.!

Mostly argument for arguments sake!

As Charlie Brown might say; "Good Grief!"

I recommend this thread be closed, due to lack of interest.

But, I will take a side, and I pick Carcharodon as the clear winner!

Regards,

Edited by opuslola - 23 May 2011 at 19:03
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Thank heaven for that.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 2011 at 20:39
OK, I have changed my pick, and now pick gcle2003 as the complete winner!

Sorry Doc!

But, unless "gunpowder" is discussed the rest of this crap should be eliminated!

OK, I have changed my vote again, I now pick Stryborin, sorry Stryiorn, as the ultimate winner!

But, I just cannnot have my arm twisted enough to vote for the Doc.!

Better luck next time!

Certainly none of you supposedly grown men, especially those with some powers on this string, should fail to close it now!

Edited by opuslola - 23 May 2011 at 20:42
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 2011 at 11:21
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

  
By Great Caesar's Ghost! Life's too short to waste time trying to garland the donkey no matter how  proximate the Feast of the Ass (Vestalia, 15 June).
 
...loaves are hung on asses decked with wreaths, and flowery garlands veil the rough millstones.
Ovid. Fasti Book 6, lines 311-312.
 
Nevertheless, Carch can not even get his repetitive citations right! It is Bjorn Landstrom, the famed Finnish artist, illustrator, writer and yachtsman (d. 2002). His usage of "skeppet" is immaterial other than as a literary inclusive since in his illustrated narrative on the maritime experience [Skeppet. 1961(Eng. trns. 1970)]  he was quite careful in denoting the correct terms for the vessels discussed. Yet, Landstrom is a "secondary" source and in the category of popularizer. Here we are discussing the solidly nautical and why the Carcharadon wants to perorate pointlessly tries the patience of all.
 
Landstroem also conducted what one can call original research, measuring ships, and consulting original sources from the periods of the ships he described.
 
And, as I said the whole time, the usage of the term ship as a generic term do not ofcourse exclude more specialised terminology for each of the different ship or vessel types that one describes. I just pointed out that ship can and is used in more ways than in the limited sence that was claimed here.
 
I have cooperated with people from institutions as the museum of Bohuslaan, the maritime museums in Gothenburg, Stockholm and Karlskrona and also with people from the Roskilde Viking ship museum. I attended seminars and listened to lectures in maritime, marine archaeological and naval subjects, so I have my self been able to note that the word ship is used in a variety of different ways, mostly depending on circumstances.
 
As I said: The use of the word ship in a generic sence do not exclude the use of more specific names for different ship (vessel, craft or whatever) types.


Edited by Carcharodon - 24 May 2011 at 11:23
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