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No Islam?

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theManwhocouldntcry View Drop Down
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    Posted: 01 Apr 2010 at 06:13
what would have happened if Muhammed was never bourne, and The rise of Islam never happened?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Leonardo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Apr 2010 at 08:23
The world would be a better place.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Apr 2010 at 08:29
To the new member, just a suggestion: This is the second instance of posting a "what if thread" in a discussion area. Such inquiries belong in the realm of "Alternative History" and not within the scope of area studies.
Honi soit qui mal y pense
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Seko- Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Apr 2010 at 08:29
...if Islam never happened...we wouldn't have posts from Leonardo.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Apr 2010 at 08:29
Why?
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Seko- Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Apr 2010 at 08:30
DrG. We know. The mods will be on it eventually! 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Seko- Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Apr 2010 at 08:31
Originally posted by Al Jassas Al Jassas wrote:

Why?
 
Al-Jassas


...really, what else would he write about?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote King John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Apr 2010 at 08:32
Moved to the alternative history subforum.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Apr 2010 at 08:35

Since this is a forum for sane intelligent people a sane intelligent thing is to elaborate on a proposition. In this case he suggested the world would be a better place so he has to say why.

 
Al-Jassas


Edited by Al Jassas - 01 Apr 2010 at 08:36
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote es_bih Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Apr 2010 at 08:50
O Leonardo :) you make our day
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Leonardo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Apr 2010 at 16:46
You are welcome
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dolphin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Apr 2010 at 20:00
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

To the new member, just a suggestion: This is the second instance of posting a "what if thread" in a discussion area. Such inquiries belong in the realm of "Alternative History" and not within the scope of area studies.

Well pointed out Dr. We were all getting a little uneasy there for a while.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Parnell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Apr 2010 at 23:55
A world without Islam? Rush Limbaugh wouldn't have as much to shout about to be sure. European fascists like Nick Griffin or Leonardo would have to vent their spleen at some other religious group, I'd assume. Let me see... a religious group which has always existed as a tiny minority within a hostile majority... a religious group renknown for their success in the worlds of finance, culture (not so much sport)... They wouldn't, would they? Surely not again...
http://xkcd.com/15/



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote es_bih Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Apr 2010 at 10:26
Originally posted by Parnell Parnell wrote:

A world without Islam? Rush Limbaugh wouldn't have as
much to shout about to be sure. European fascists like Nick Griffin or
Leonardo would have to vent their spleen at some other religious group,
I'd assume. Let me see... a religious group which has always existed as a
tiny minority within a hostile majority... a religious group renknown for
their success in the worlds of finance, culture (not so much sport)... They
wouldn't, would they? Surely not again...



Well Limbaugh would still have a black (well half black) President to be outraged over. Aside from his Islamophobia; he's still as big of a racist.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Apr 2010 at 16:43
Originally posted by theManwhocouldntcry theManwhocouldntcry wrote:

what would have happened if Muhammed was never bourne, and The rise of Islam never happened?
 
Well, Harry Turtledove -- one of the all time greats of alternate history -- wrote a book with a scenario that would have been a bit more likely, in which Mohamet became a Christian saint. Check out Agent of Byzantium if you wish to get his take on it.
 
-Akolouthos
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Apr 2010 at 22:33
As I've probably mentioned before, Turtledove is immortalised for me by The Case of the Toxic Spell Dump [1], but otherwise, especially in the series starting with the South winning the Civil War, I've found him unconvincing and, frankly, somewhat boring.
 
[1] I just checked this with Amazon.com. They have three new copies available. At $597 apiece.


Edited by gcle2003 - 02 Apr 2010 at 22:34
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Apr 2010 at 02:39
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

As I've probably mentioned before, Turtledove is immortalised for me by The Case of the Toxic Spell Dump [1], but otherwise, especially in the series starting with the South winning the Civil War, I've found him unconvincing and, frankly, somewhat boring.
 
[1] I just checked this with Amazon.com. They have three new copies available. At $597 apiece.
 
Have you read any of the Videssos novels, or the Time Travel series? I couldn't get into some of his more modern stuff, but generally the further back the historical picture goes, the better he is.
 
-Akolouthos
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Apr 2010 at 05:03
That could be true. No I don't know his earlier stuff (stuff set earlier in history I mean).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Apr 2010 at 05:25
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

As I've probably mentioned before, Turtledove is immortalised for me by The Case of the Toxic Spell Dump [1], but otherwise, especially in the series starting with the South winning the Civil War, I've found him unconvincing and, frankly, somewhat boring.
 
[1] I just checked this with Amazon.com. They have three new copies available. At $597 apiece.
 
Typo? Is it $5.97 rather than $597...unless Amazon.uk has turned into a den of thieves and fools.
Our organization, Friends of Libraries, literally has boxes of Turtledove books either donated to us or de-accessed from the library system (some are even signed first editions) and there's no way in Hades we would even contemplate charging but a few dollars for them and not hundreds. Heck, "remaindered" copies go for 50 cents! I know European book dealers are smoking something when it comes to book prices, but Turtledove!?!
Honi soit qui mal y pense
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Apr 2010 at 06:43
Not my typo, and doesn't look like theirs, since they also give the cents.
 
If you want crazy, some while back Amazon was offering one of my books at $120. Unfortunately no-one was offering to buy it for that.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gharanai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Apr 2010 at 06:49
Originally posted by theManwhocouldntcry theManwhocouldntcry wrote:

what would have happened if Muhammed was never bourne, and The rise of Islam never happened?
 
You would had been asking "What would have happened if Jesus was never bourne *Born*, and The rise of Christianity never happened?"


Edited by Gharanai - 22 Aug 2010 at 10:35


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Originally posted by Gharanai Gharanai wrote:

Originally posted by theManwhocouldntcry theManwhocouldntcry wrote:

what would have happened if Muhammed was never bourne, and The rise of Islam never happened?
 
You would had been asking "What would have happened if Jesus was never bourne *Born*, and The rise of Christianity never happened?"
 
LOL
 
And if that hadn't happened, there'd still be Moses -- or Abraham, if you prefer, -- to pick on. LOL
 
-Akolouthos
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote theManwhocouldntcry Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Apr 2010 at 02:22
fyi i wasnt "picking on" anybody. I'm an atheist but I respect people no matter what they believe in; and I am well aware that the conflicts in the Middle east today are, in whole or in part, the christian west's fault. I was just musing on a historical question.
 
think how long the byzantine empire might have survived!
wonder at the future development of Zoroastrianism in sassanid persia!
think of a europe that didnt have to crusade against muslims all the time, and instead concentrate on their own affairs!
Think of a spain in which the kingdom of the Visigoths survived!
 
or, on a darker note..
 
think of a europe in which the writings of the great ancient philosophers were lost forever.
perhaps no renaissance?
Or perhaps a more extended byzantine presence? a new rome?
 
so many questions to be pondered on such a major turn that would have occur'd Clap
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Apr 2010 at 05:59
Might not Zoroastrian Arabs have done more or less the same things that Muslim Arabs did?
 
Even without Islam there would have been a Middle Eastern powerhouse of some kind, Iranian or Semitic. I don't see Byzantium restoring either the Roman or the Alexandrian empire. Moreover it wasn't the advent of Islam that split Christendom between east and west: even if the middle east had become Christian, it would seem more than likely that the Church would have split three ways, maybe four, instead of just two.
 
Would the Crusades have been significantly different if the two sides had seen each other as Christian heretics?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Parnell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Apr 2010 at 06:16
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Might not Zoroastrian Arabs have done more or less the same things that Muslim Arabs did?
 
Even without Islam there would have been a Middle Eastern powerhouse of some kind, Iranian or Semitic. I don't see Byzantium restoring either the Roman or the Alexandrian empire. Moreover it wasn't the advent of Islam that split Christendom between east and west: even if the middle east had become Christian, it would seem more than likely that the Church would have split three ways, maybe four, instead of just two.
 
Would the Crusades have been significantly different if the two sides had seen each other as Christian heretics?


Is there not a case to be made that the splintered Arab tribes needed a unifying force, and that Islam provided this? I doubt that if they had have continued to worship their various Gods - divided - they would have become the massive international superpower they became in the early middle ages.
http://xkcd.com/15/



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Apr 2010 at 07:40
Hello to you all
 
There is one thing that escaped people here and that is the situation of Arabia before Islam.
 
By the time of the prophet, Arabia was back then simply a barrel of powder waiting for thing to blow. Never before there was so much instability and wars even in places that saw few if any wars in the past like the sacred city of Mecca (there were at least 3 conflicts in the vicinity of Mecca just before and during the lifetime of the prophet). Encrouchment on Byzantine and Sassanid lands was larger than anytime before and things were simply on their way to explode. Just as they exploded in the lands of Huns and Germanics before and the Khazar, Seljuqs and Mongols after.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eventhorizon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Apr 2010 at 09:51
If Islam did not rise, Arab language, culture and genes would remain in original Arabian lands and not get the opportunity to get diffused far and wide, such as in North Africa, Assyria and Mesopotamia. Turko-Mongols who also used Islam as a tool for their imperial conquests, would get little opportunity to create Ottoman or Mughal Empires, and create disruptions in Eastern Europe and India for example.

The world would look very different indeed, but religion as much as it tries to win against ethnicity as a unifying meme, in the end ethnicity seems to win in the long run, until the time when ethnicity becomes meaningless of course in a sea of uniform mongrel race that inhabits the earth.

Mongol invasions would not have happened west of China, if Khorezm Shah did not kill members of the Mongol trade mission. So a pax Mongolica would possibly limit itself to Yuan China only, so the world may have been spared another large scale disruption. But without pax mongolica, the Europeans may not have known about gun powder for sometime, and without Muslim Khanates standing in the way in Central Asia and Muslim ottoman blocking the Mediterranean, there would be no great European push (Spanish/Portuguese) to find an alternate maritime route to the east India/china, so perhaps European colonization of the Americas may have never happened. So renaissance and European colonial age may not have risen and affect the world as it has.

It would have little effect on China, but India and Iran would have been less disrupted as a result.

But then who knows what actually would have happened, if it was not Islam, it could have been something else from some other corner that could have risen, so all this is pure speculation and exercise in imagination.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote es_bih Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Apr 2010 at 10:30
Ottomans, Islamic states blocking the Mediterranean? I won't even go into the error of that argument... which has been debunked in serious historic circles for quite some time. The Spanish and Portuguese push didn't happen because Muslims were not trading or blocking trade... the Venetians, Genovese... and other Mediterranean states were very busy trading with Egypt and the Ottomans. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Apr 2010 at 20:58
Originally posted by Parnell Parnell wrote:


Is there not a case to be made that the splintered Arab tribes needed a unifying force, and that Islam provided this?
Possibly, but could not, say, Nestorian Christianity have been such a unifying force? Or, equally if oppositely, Monophysite Christianity? Or some kind of Sabaean or Sabian revival?
 
Or, if the Arabs could not get an imperial act together and destroy the Sassanids, that leaves them or some sucessor Persian state in power, again possibly Nestorian. There are loads of possibilities, but I doubt a power vacuum in the Middle East is one of them.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Apr 2010 at 07:06

The premise promised here depends entirely upon accepting the fiction of a monolithic Islam. Guess what...there is no such beastie and Islamic thought is a fragmented as that of its immediate historical predecessor, Christianity.

Honi soit qui mal y pense
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