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Noah's Flood

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    Posted: 23 Jun 2014 at 09:01
With the new movie out this is a good time for this topic.

1. Did it happen?

2. How does that effect things now?

I believe the answer to the first question is yes overwhelmingly.

The answer to the next question is that if it happened, it would mean that all current "mainstream" views of ancient history are to be held in disregard, as the dating of rocks is therefore completely hopeless.   

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jun 2014 at 20:34
Noah's flood did not happen, but floods happened a several times in a lot of places, cos the sea level is changing during glacials and stadials.
A theory which could be the idol for the story of Noah's flood could be a supposed black sea desaster. Even more likely is the flooding of the Persian gulf. According to a theory, the Persian gulf was a green paradise during the last glacial, when the rest of the north african-arabian area became a desert. When the glaciers melted away, the sea level rose again and the Persian gulf mangroves were covered by the salty water of the indic ocean.


Etiam si omnes, ego non.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Captain Vancouver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jun 2014 at 01:21
Richard Attenbourgh speculated that many "great flood" mythologies might have come from a filling of the Mediterranean basin, when rising sea levels broke through the straits of Gibraltar, causing a deluge that would have been many orders of magnitude greater than Niagara Falls. He speculated that this would have been heard hundreds of miles away, and left such an indelible impression on the then inhabitants of the old world, that this became passed on for countless generations, morphing,  perhaps, into the bible story of Noah.

By the way, I saw the movie. Save your money.....even the special effects were lame.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jun 2014 at 03:05
From what I've read and seen on TV over the years, I can accept that a great flood occurred at some time in ancient history.
 
The rest of the story, the Ark, is, imo, pure myth.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Voltage Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jun 2014 at 06:17
I find it interesting that you state so authoritatively that it "could not happen." Yet, correct me if I am wrong, you are an evolutionist, and so must believe the earth is at least 4.4 billion years (give or take a billion) and so, if the current rate of erosion is fallowed the continents would be washed away at least 70 times. You will hear people say that this does not matter as volcanoes push up more debris every year.   There is one problem with that position, lava does not contain fossils.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jun 2014 at 07:20
Originally posted by Voltage Voltage wrote:

I find it interesting that you state so authoritatively that it "could not happen." Yet, correct me if I am wrong, you are an evolutionist, and so must believe the earth is at least 4.4 billion years (give or take a billion) and so, if the current rate of erosion is fallowed the continents would be washed away at least 70 times. You will hear people say that this does not matter as volcanoes push up more debris every year.   There is one problem with that position, lava does not contain fossils.  

 
 
It would be helpful if you nominated the person to whom you are directing your comments.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jun 2014 at 07:57
Originally posted by Captain Vancouver Captain Vancouver wrote:

Richard Attenbourgh speculated that many "great flood" mythologies might have come from a filling of the Mediterranean basin, when rising sea levels broke through the straits of Gibraltar, causing a deluge that would have been many orders of magnitude greater than Niagara Falls. He speculated that this would have been heard hundreds of miles away, and left such an indelible impression on the then inhabitants of the old world, that this became passed on for countless generations, morphing,  perhaps, into the bible story of Noah.

By the way, I saw the movie. Save your money.....even the special effects were lame.

I suppose that the human memory does not go back 5 million years.
Etiam si omnes, ego non.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jun 2014 at 08:09
Originally posted by Voltage Voltage wrote:

I find it interesting that you state so authoritatively that it "could not happen." Yet, correct me if I am wrong, you are an evolutionist, and so must believe the earth is at least 4.4 billion years (give or take a billion) and so, if the current rate of erosion is fallowed the continents would be washed away at least 70 times. You will hear people say that this does not matter as volcanoes push up more debris every year.   There is one problem with that position, lava does not contain fossils.



...and the continents are washed into the sea, where they build great layers of molasse, marl, claystone or sand- or limestone and other sedimentary rocks. The Alps e.g. or the Rockies are such folded marine layers.
Have you ever calculated, how many water was necessary to cover the earth? Several times more water than in the recent oceans.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Voltage Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jun 2014 at 11:01
I directed my first to beorna, as I direct my second.

...and as the continents are washed into the sea the previous fossils are washed away and lost forever.

Actually if you flattened the earths surface to an average you would have by far more then enough water to cover the earth.   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jun 2014 at 14:05
Originally posted by Voltage Voltage wrote:

I directed my first to beorna, as I direct my second.

...and as the continents are washed into the sea the previous fossils are washed away and lost forever.

Actually if you flattened the earths surface to an average you would have by far more then enough water to cover the earth.   
 
And this is relevant to the OP, how?
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Captain Vancouver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jun 2014 at 17:23
Originally posted by beorna beorna wrote:

Originally posted by Captain Vancouver Captain Vancouver wrote:

Richard Attenbourgh speculated that many "great flood" mythologies might have come from a filling of the Mediterranean basin, when rising sea levels broke through the straits of Gibraltar, causing a deluge that would have been many orders of magnitude greater than Niagara Falls. He speculated that this would have been heard hundreds of miles away, and left such an indelible impression on the then inhabitants of the old world, that this became passed on for countless generations, morphing,  perhaps, into the bible story of Noah.

By the way, I saw the movie. Save your money.....even the special effects were lame.

I suppose that the human memory does not go back 5 million years.


I suppose so. These days, your captain's might not even go back 5 days, without post-it notes.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jun 2014 at 20:14
Originally posted by Voltage Voltage wrote:

I directed my first to beorna, as I direct my second.

...and as the continents are washed into the sea the previous fossils are washed away and lost forever.

Actually if you flattened the earths surface to an average you would have by far more then enough water to cover the earth.   

And you probably have never heard about orogeny?
Actually, if you flatten the earth surface, you can hardly land your arch on the top of a mountain!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jun 2014 at 02:57
Originally posted by beorna beorna wrote:


And you probably have never heard about orogeny?
Actually, if you flatten the earth surface, you can hardly land your arch on the top of a mountain!!!
 
Some folks think that Tectonic Plates are for special dinners.Smile
 
But who knows what may have caused the flood, if it occurred. Tsunami like effects have obliterated whole tracts of land over the millenia.
 
And course there's also orogeny.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jun 2014 at 11:05
Quote Richard Attenbourgh speculated that many "great flood" mythologies might have come from a filling of the Mediterranean basin, when rising sea levels broke through the straits of Gibraltar, causing a deluge that would have been many orders of magnitude greater than Niagara Falls. He speculated that this would have been heard hundreds of miles away, and left such an indelible impression on the then inhabitants of the old world, that this became passed on for countless generations, morphing,  perhaps, into the bible story of Noah.


Richard Attenbourgh? Lord luvvie himself? Surely you mean David Attenbourgh?

Anyhow the theory is sound enough. The Mediterranean is getting smaller as the African plate moves north, causing coastal fluctuations (even in ancient times remarkably) and at least one blockage of the Gibraltar Straits. It may have been blocked up to ten times - no-one knows for sure. The flooding of the basin might have been dramatic but it depends on how big the breach is. A recent estimate suggested it took four hundred years to fill the the basin.

But that said, who was living down there? The Mediterranean is a salt water sea. A dry basin left after evaporation would be an unpleasant salt desert.


Edited by caldrail - 26 Jun 2014 at 11:06
http://www.unrv.com/forum/blog/31-caldrails-blog/
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jun 2014 at 11:52
Originally posted by caldrail caldrail wrote:

Quote Richard Attenbourgh speculated that many "great flood" mythologies might have come from a filling of the Mediterranean basin, when rising sea levels broke through the straits of Gibraltar, causing a deluge that would have been many orders of magnitude greater than Niagara Falls. He speculated that this would have been heard hundreds of miles away, and left such an indelible impression on the then inhabitants of the old world, that this became passed on for countless generations, morphing,  perhaps, into the bible story of Noah.


Richard Attenbourgh? Lord luvvie himself? Surely you mean David Attenbourgh?

Anyhow the theory is sound enough. The Mediterranean is getting smaller as the African plate moves north, causing coastal fluctuations (even in ancient times remarkably) and at least one blockage of the Gibraltar Straits. It may have been blocked up to ten times - no-one knows for sure. The flooding of the basin might have been dramatic but it depends on how big the breach is. A recent estimate suggested it took four hundred years to fill the the basin.

But that said, who was living down there? The Mediterranean is a salt water sea. A dry basin left after evaporation would be an unpleasant salt desert.
 
Tectonic Plate movement is measured in centimetres per 100 years.
 
It's highly unlikely that Tectonic Plate movement would create a flood, unless the movement was such that an earthquake and tsunami resulted. This is caused when one plate rides up over another causing a displacement effect, or opening a crack in the surface of the earth.
 
If the plate movement closed the Staits of Gibraltar, a flood of the Mediterranean Sea would/could eventuate. Obviously, the opposite could also happen, but with the many great rivers flowing into the Mediterranean, I'd opt for flood rather than barren wasteland.
 
However, this is all speculation. That there have been catyclismic floods cannot be denied. But, as I said, the mythology surrounding the Ark is such that it detracts from the rest of the story.
 
As for who's living there at the time, I can't see the relevance to the OP.
 
 


Edited by toyomotor - 26 Jun 2014 at 11:55
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jun 2014 at 13:05
Quote
Tectonic Plate movement is measured in centimetres per 100 years.

It isn't quick. However, there have been some dramatic effects on the Mediterranean coastline. There's a greek temple on the coast which is well above sea level now yet shows evidence of indundation in seawater.
 
Quote It's highly unlikely that Tectonic Plate movement would create a flood, unless the movement was such that an earthquake and tsunami resulted. This is caused when one plate rides up over another causing a displacement effect, or opening a crack in the surface of the earth.

The issue is circumstantial.
 
Quote If the plate movement closed the Staits of Gibraltar, a flood of the Mediterranean Sea would/could eventuate. Obviously, the opposite could also happen, but with the many great rivers flowing into the Mediterranean, I'd opt for flood rather than barren wasteland.

Except that the evaporation rate of the Mediterranean exceeds the water supply from rivers, which is why the basin dried up when connection to the Atlantic was lost. Paleo-Geologists say it happened. Who am I to argue.
 
Quote As for who's living there at the time, I can't see the relevance to the OP.

Then allow me to open your eyes. If there's no-one living in an region that gets flooded, then there's no stories about flooding catastrophes.
http://www.unrv.com/forum/blog/31-caldrails-blog/
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jun 2014 at 13:52
Originally posted by caldrail caldrail wrote:

Quote
Tectonic Plate movement is measured in centimetres per 100 years.

It isn't quick. However, there have been some dramatic effects on the Mediterranean coastline. There's a greek temple on the coast which is well above sea level now yet shows evidence of indundation in seawater.
 
Quote It's highly unlikely that Tectonic Plate movement would create a flood, unless the movement was such that an earthquake and tsunami resulted. This is caused when one plate rides up over another causing a displacement effect, or opening a crack in the surface of the earth.

The issue is circumstantial.
 
Quote If the plate movement closed the Staits of Gibraltar, a flood of the Mediterranean Sea would/could eventuate. Obviously, the opposite could also happen, but with the many great rivers flowing into the Mediterranean, I'd opt for flood rather than barren wasteland.

Except that the evaporation rate of the Mediterranean exceeds the water supply from rivers, which is why the basin dried up when connection to the Atlantic was lost. Paleo-Geologists say it happened. Who am I to argue.
 
Quote As for who's living there at the time, I can't see the relevance to the OP.

Then allow me to open your eyes. If there's no-one living in an region that gets flooded, then there's no stories about flooding catastrophes.
 
I don't agree. When what was, is found to have changed drastically, of course the people making that discovery would/could record it.
 
Quote
It isn't quick. However, there have been some dramatic effects on the Mediterranean coastline. There's a greek temple on the coast which is well above sea level now yet shows evidence of indundation in seawater.
 
This could well be the result of Tectonic Plate movement which created or increased a Convergent Boundary, that is, one plate moved over the other, pushing the earth upwards to cause mountains etc.
 
Quote The issue is circumstantial.
 
Of course, much of Natural History is.
 
Quote Except that the evaporation rate of the Mediterranean exceeds the water supply from rivers, which is why the basin dried up when connection to the Atlantic was lost. Paleo-Geologists say it happened. Who am I to argue.
 
What Basin are you referring to?
 
In any case, I'm not saying that there wasn't a flood as described, I don't accept the Biblical account of the Ark.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jun 2014 at 12:20
Quote This could well be the result of Tectonic Plate movement which created or increased a Convergent Boundary, that is, one plate moved over the other, pushing the earth upwards to cause mountains etc.

Could be, but it isn't. That's as slow as other tectonic movement. What I'm describing is boundary flexing, where two flat objects meet and begin to pressure each other. Since compression or duction has notoccurred, the ends whip up or down until the pressure finds some form of release (usually by earthquake)

Quote
What Basin are you referring to?

The Mediterranean. It's what we've been discussing.
 
Quote In any case, I'm not saying that there wasn't a flood as described, I don't accept the Biblical account of the Ark

A flood that inundated the entire world for forty days or whatever it was? A little implausiable, but drastic flooding has not been unusual in the past and humans have short lifespans and even shorter memories, so storytelling gets a little distorted for dramatic effect. I don't think the biblical account is correct either, but since the Old testament is based on historical events (however loosely) then we might assume that someone rode out a major flood on a boat, though the idea of a huge wooden aircraft carrier stuffed with every possible species of animal is a bit parallel to a modern Arthur C Clarke story about colonisation in outer space.

Mind you, Noah didn't like dinosaurs very much, did he? Poor things. Left to drown like that. Unless of course a certain medieval monk got his sums wrong and the Earth is actually somewhat older than six thousand years.

http://www.unrv.com/forum/blog/31-caldrails-blog/
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jun 2014 at 15:19
Caldrail:
 
Quote Could be, but it isn't. That's as slow as other tectonic movement. What I'm describing is boundary flexing, where two flat objects meet and begin to pressure each other. Since compression or duction has notoccurred, the ends whip up or down until the pressure finds some form of release (usually by earthquake)
 
That's the same thing that I mentioned. The edges of the Tectonic Plates push against each other, causing the land to move upwards, forming mountains. And as you say, the actual movement is called earthquake (it's actually the reaction to the plates pushing against each other). Conversely, plates moving away from each other create great chasms in the earths structure.
 
Anyway I don't have any further info on this-apart from reiterating my belief that the flood may have happened, but not the Ark.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Anubis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jul 2014 at 00:37
Local floods were common during the period and if it were a flood I think it would have been local and not world wide. Just about all ancient civilizations had flood myths they are nothing new. The Biblical flood story was drawn off the Epic of Gilgamesh which you can read here:

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/serpents_dragons/gilgamesh.htm

Its reported in the Bible that Noahs Ark landed on a mountain top no big deal right? But if you figure the depth of the water in the Bible it only reached 22 feet in depth. The Ark supposedly landed on Mount Ararat which I believe is 22,000 feet up. If these numbers are right the ark landed on something but not Ararat.
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