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noble lie

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toyomotor View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Aug 2017 at 01:56
Vanuatu

I wouldn't for a moment criticise your views on religeon, they are what they are, and I won't even disagree with you.

As you've probably guessed from past posts I'm agnostic, I don't believe what is said about religeon, Christian or otherwise and until I see some proof, I never will.

Around home I have to keep quiet on my views, as three of my grandchildren are being raised as Roman Catholics, yesterday the five year old impressed Poppy with his rendition of their morning prayer, quite touching. How could you confuse a child by telling im otherwise. He'll grow to form his own opinions.

But, I maintain, religeon is a timeless but very Noble Lie.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Aug 2017 at 11:43
There's nothing noble about religion. Whatever a faith says about it's beliefs, the truth is that religion is the basis for social, civil, and militant motives as it always was. In other words, people twist religion to suit themselves, and for the supposed benefits of traditionalism found in organised religion, this can be used as much as a smokescreen for the conspirator as a guiding principle for the sincere. Organised religion after all has always sought civil significance, and indeed, Constantine the Great patronised Christian sects and encouraged unification because it suited his political needs, not his pagan beliefs. For the Christians, the possibility of wealth and influence were too much to refuse. But then, the Romans themselves commented on how rich Christian bishops tended to get - is there any real difference today?
 
Noble purpose can be found in the sincerity and selflessness of individuals, not their affiliation. But then, as recent experience shows, lies are often hiding something a great deal less noble than the public image of the benefactor.
http://www.unrv.com/forum/blog/31-caldrails-blog/
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Aug 2017 at 19:37
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Vanuatu

I wouldn't for a moment criticise your views on religeon, they are what they are, and I won't even disagree with you.

As you've probably guessed from past posts I'm agnostic, I don't believe what is said about religeon, Christian or otherwise and until I see some proof, I never will.

Around home I have to keep quiet on my views, as three of my grandchildren are being raised as Roman Catholics, yesterday the five year old impressed Poppy with his rendition of their morning prayer, quite touching. How could you confuse a child by telling im otherwise. He'll grow to form his own opinions.

But, I maintain, religeon is a timeless but very Noble Lie.

Actually the comment has nothing to do with my beliefs or lack of belief. The bible details these events and Christians did believe this literally when I was growing up. 

I don't know what the official church position is now on the literal acceptance of OT stories about a physical appearance of the almighty. 
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Aug 2017 at 21:18
I don't know if "religion" is a noble lie, but there are things that are noble about religion, the self-sacrifice for the good of others, the dignity of the humble, the sacraments.  Of course, religion is used for the purposes of the rich and powerful, what isn't.  It is a human institution and shows human faults.  I would say that tending the sick in late Rome or in the Middle Ages during the black death is pretty noble.  If it comes from a belief of being 'in the world and not of it,' more the power to it.

Of course, the Bible is not Christianity, and visa versa, I tend to think literalism is a mistake, or rather solely literalism is a mistake (although perhaps not a literal mistakeWink).  It is more a Protestant mistake than a Catholic or Orthodox mistake, a form of idolatry, (Biblioidolatry, or something like that).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Aug 2017 at 00:40
Franciscosan
Quote Of course, religion is used for the purposes of the rich and powerful, what isn't.

You're kidding, aren't you? Heard of Saint Teresa of Calcutta (Mother Teresa)?

She dedicated her life to working with and for the poorest people on earth. Similar Roman Catholic and other religeous organisations around the world perform similar work.

Whether one is religeous or not, it's not hard to recognise good works being done.

For the "rich and powerful"? Rubbish!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Aug 2017 at 01:52
oh, I would expect you to misunderstand a simple statement.  Some people (mis)use religion for their own purposes.  Those purposes are often for money and power.  Therefore, religion is used (misuse is a type of use) for the purposes of the rich and powerful.  That does not mean it isn't used in other ways, although I am not sure what Teresa of Calcutta is doing is "using it."  More likely, she is allowing the faith to use her and is becoming a vehicle of the faith.

I would equally say that religion is 'used' to pick up hot Catholic school girls, that does not mean that such activities have the endorsement of the Pope, although they might, if it results in more Catholics.  But it is not the extremely reverent and faithful that is 'using' religion that way, but the horny teenage boy trying to score.  Lord works in mysterious ways.  No one would think that the sole purpose of the Catholic Church is that of horny boys....  Although with Mary the mother of Jesus being co-redemptrix, maybe they're just trying to imitate their 'our Father."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Aug 2017 at 02:27
Quote oh, I would expect you to misunderstand a simple statement.

What's to misunderstand?

What you've written is clear enough. The problem is that you shoot from the lip without really thinking through what you're writing.

In any case, I don't intend to go any further off post with you on this.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Aug 2017 at 15:45
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Quote oh, I would expect you to misunderstand a simple statement.

What's to misunderstand?

What you've written is clear enough. The problem is that you shoot from the lip without really thinking through what you're writing.

In any case, I don't intend to go any further off post with you on this.
Could be Mother Theresa was a noble lie. Do you realize that what was happening there was human warehousing?

There was no "treatment" people were put under a tent to die. No political change to the caste system in India bc of Mother T. 

Also, keeping donations only to deliver them to the Pope in Rome makes me think she was really a head case. I'm not alone in that opinion. 
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Aug 2017 at 22:31
I am not a Catholic and so I can believe fairly easily that she had feet of clay.  But I have also never looked into the situation there to judge for myself.  She did amazing things even if she may have had a screw loose (because she had a screw loose?).  I know that Hitchens did not like her, and so she cannot have been all bad.  But, saints may well be an example of a noble lie.  Even Protestants go gaga over figures such as Francis of Assisi.  The devil's advocate is supposed to oppose the bid to sainthood, but the devil's advocate, baring extraordinary circumstances, is supposed to loose.

I would not expect Catholicism or Christianity to change the caste system directly, I would expect Christianity to attract people _from_ the caste system, people like Dinesh D'Souza, Christianity offers an alternative to the caste system, but I would not expect it to take on the caste system directly.  That has to be done internally, just like it took a Southerner LBJ to take on equal rights for Blacks in the United States, or McCarthyite Richard Nixon to open up relations with communist China.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Aug 2017 at 05:42
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:


I would not expect Catholicism or Christianity to change the caste system directly, I would expect Christianity to attract people _from_ the caste system, people like Dinesh D'Souza, Christianity offers an alternative to the caste system, but I would not expect it to take on the caste system directly.  That has to be done internally, just like it took a Southerner LBJ to take on equal rights for Blacks in the United States, or McCarthyite Richard Nixon to open up relations with communist China.

I don't expect anyone but Indians to change the caste system. If Mother T. had effected change in the caste system, then it would justify some of her unearned exultation IMO.

What I see is a Catholic who warehoused doomed and dying people. No treatment, this was about dying in the love of Christ. Mother T.'s unique situation in a country of Jains, Hindis and Muslims is what got her so much attention. Christian print and television made her well known in the US.

Many women in India have been doing work that actually lifts people out of terrible situations. They don't get much attention, well they don't know the Pope.
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Sep 2017 at 01:47
Christianity and islam does make a difference for the caste system, why be in the bottom caste, when one can become a Christian or a Muslim?  Of course, people in the caste don't like that because they want the people on the bottom to stay there.  It is not so much Christians or the Muslims that are converting the bottom caste away.  They are just presenting the generic opportunity, which some are taking.

The Indian government can do all sorts of things like say, "don't call them untouchables."  But in the end, the caste is still there, with the cows on top.

I don't know exactly what Mother Teresa did, so I cannot say if she was a white hat or a black hat, or grey.  Now undoubtably there are a lot of little lies and distortions that surround a mythic figure like Mother Teresa.  Whether it be that she made the myth or not (for neither does she nor the Catholic Church have complete control of her image in our modern media output).  She may have just been putting one foot in front of the other, in approaching her task.  I wonder how many saints would have argued with their own sanctification, not that she would.  I wonder how many saints would have expected their own sanctification, Joan d'Arc??


Edited by franciscosan - 01 Sep 2017 at 01:50
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Sep 2017 at 05:18
Do you think it's time to let go of Saint Teresa and get back to the topic?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Sep 2017 at 21:40
Well, Teresa is noble, and some would consider her too good to be true, so I think understanding her is useful for understanding the topic.  But, if you want to change the conversation, addressing something also relevant to the topic, then toyomotor, don't just say so, do it.

On the subject of India, I wonder if sacred cows are a noble (lie)? I definitely think that for some people, they consider shooting at sacred cows as noble (lie).  Not that it isn't a lot of fun sometimes.  Wink
+
A question just occurred to me, can something and its opposite both be noble lies.  Can a sacred cow be a noble lie (or say, the prohibition on depicting Mohammed), and its opposite (the shooting of sacred cows, or the lampooning of Mohammed) be a noble lie.  Or could they each be noble truths?  But for different people?

Is everything noble, at the bottom of things, a lie?  If so, being a lie (and knowing it a lie?) does not change the fact that it is noble.


Edited by franciscosan - 01 Sep 2017 at 22:14
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Sep 2017 at 22:32
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

On the subject of India, I wonder if sacred cows are a noble (lie)? I definitely think that for some people, they consider shooting at sacred cows as noble (lie).  Not that it isn't a lot of fun sometimes.  Wink
+
A question just occurred to me, can something and its opposite both be noble lies.  Can a sacred cow be a noble lie (or say, the prohibition on depicting Mohammed), and its opposite (the shooting of sacred cows, or the lampooning of Mohammed) be a noble lie.  Or could they each be noble truths?  But for different people?

Is everything noble, at the bottom of things, a lie?  If so, being a lie (and knowing it a lie?) does not change the fact that it is noble.
Noble in the narrow view is nothing but noble. Do you think that symbolism, such as family crests and Napoleon's honey bees are examples physically manifested noble lies?

If one is wearing a symbol of nobility, do they become noble? As far as the peasant would be concerned the fleur de lis is all powerful nobility. The penultimate image of strength through display, the ultimate being armies facing each other it seems.(?)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Sep 2017 at 01:40
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

Well, Teresa is noble, and some would consider her too good to be true, so I think understanding her is useful for understanding the topic.  But, if you want to change the conversation, addressing something also relevant to the topic, then toyomotor, don't just say so, do it.

On the subject of India, I wonder if sacred cows are a noble (lie)? I definitely think that for some people, they consider shooting at sacred cows as noble (lie).  Not that it isn't a lot of fun sometimes.  Wink
+
A question just occurred to me, can something and its opposite both be noble lies.  Can a sacred cow be a noble lie (or say, the prohibition on depicting Mohammed), and its opposite (the shooting of sacred cows, or the lampooning of Mohammed) be a noble lie.  Or could they each be noble truths?  But for different people?

Is everything noble, at the bottom of things, a lie?  If so, being a lie (and knowing it a lie?) does not change the fact that it is noble.

Quote  But, if you want to change the conversation, addressing something also relevant to the topic, then toyomotor, don't just say so, do it.
 
It's not for me to dictate, I was only suggesting getting back to the original topic.

Quote On the subject of India, I wonder if sacred cows are a noble (lie)? I definitely think that for some people, they consider shooting at sacred cows as noble (lie).  Not that it isn't a lot of fun sometimes.  Wink

I have no idea what you're on about.

Franciscosan, sometimes I worry about you. 
Quote A question just occurred to me, can something and its opposite both be noble lies.  Can a sacred cow be a noble lie (or say, the prohibition on depicting Mohammed), and its opposite (the shooting of sacred cows, or the lampooning of Mohammed) be a noble lie.  Or could they each be noble truths?  But for different people?

More gobbledegook! But no, no-one should lampoon someone elses religeous beliefs.

Quote Is everything noble, at the bottom of things, a lie?  If so, being a lie (and knowing it a lie?) does not change the fact that it is noble.

If I were to say that you're a jolly good fellow, it would fall into that category

I would have thought that the purpose of a noble lie was to hide the truth, for the benefit of someone else's feelings, faith etc. For them to know that it was a lie would, IMO, make it just that, a lie.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Sep 2017 at 03:00
toyomotor, I think franciscosan means sacred cows in a generic sense. Like daring to say anything against a culturally sanctioned sacred cow. 

Ever break windows throwing rocks when you were a kid? 

kind of exhilarating.
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Sep 2017 at 06:28
Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

toyomotor, I think franciscosan means sacred cows in a generic sense. Like daring to say anything against a culturally sanctioned sacred cow. 

Ever break windows throwing rocks when you were a kid? 

kind of exhilarating.

I've put my hands up to Franky often raising my hackles with his rambling, and to me non-sensical posts. It could be his superior intelligence coming into play, I don't know.

As to breaking windows when I was a kid, I lived in a small country town, everyone knew you and transgression meant retribution was swift and sure. Short answer, no.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Sep 2017 at 06:43
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

toyomotor, I think franciscosan means sacred cows in a generic sense. Like daring to say anything against a culturally sanctioned sacred cow. 

Ever break windows throwing rocks when you were a kid? 

kind of exhilarating.

I've put my hands up to Franky often raising my hackles with his rambling, and to me non-sensical posts. It could be his superior intelligence coming into play, I don't know.

As to breaking windows when I was a kid, I lived in a small country town, everyone knew you and transgression meant retribution was swift and sure. Short answer, no.

Well it must be similar to what excoriating Trump is for you, if your self confessed-anti Trump position is any indication. Or similar to the way you disparage the church with a capital "C" that Sr T was devoted to and which you revel in, and so do I sometimes. 

You must have done something to shatter the noble lies of authority when you were a kid. Prankster?
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Sep 2017 at 07:18
Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

toyomotor, I think franciscosan means sacred cows in a generic sense. Like daring to say anything against a culturally sanctioned sacred cow. 

Ever break windows throwing rocks when you were a kid? 

kind of exhilarating.

I've put my hands up to Franky often raising my hackles with his rambling, and to me non-sensical posts. It could be his superior intelligence coming into play, I don't know.

As to breaking windows when I was a kid, I lived in a small country town, everyone knew you and transgression meant retribution was swift and sure. Short answer, no.

Well it must be similar to what excoriating Trump is for you, if your self confessed-anti Trump position is any indication. Or similar to the way you disparage the church with a capital "C" that Sr T was devoted to and which you revel in, and so do I sometimes. 

You must have done something to shatter the noble lies of authority when you were a kid. Prankster?
'

Quote Well it must be similar to what excoriating Trump is for you, if your self confessed-anti Trump position is any indication
I've admitted to not liking what I've seen and read about Trump.

Quote You must have done something to shatter the noble lies of authority when you were a kid.
I attended Sunday School every Sunday, walking through the bush to get there, and when she was old enough, piggy-backing my little sister too.

I was confirmed at age 12, and was due to become a teacher to the little kids. That's when I abandoned ship.  

Agnosticism has come to me over the years.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Sep 2017 at 23:55
I think one of the noble lies for this generation is that you have to rebel.

Like the housecleaning robot, Kryton, in Red Dwarf said when asked, "what are you rebelling against?"  "what have you got?"

Sometimes I think that, when a little rebellion is accepted by the sociologist wannabes, the rebel is forced into a bigger rebellion, in order to get the desired reaction.  Part of what rebellion is, is a flirtation with the edge of what is socially acceptable.  But what happens if everything is socially acceptable?  Or so it seems to me.

I did like to break bottles throwing them at the railroad tracks, (and sometimes, the street).


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