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North America before the U.S. and Canada

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pinguin View Drop Down
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    Posted: 22 Jul 2013 at 03:28
The history of North America didn't start when the Europeans arrived, but 12.000 years earlier. This is the long history of North America from its beginnings: "500 Nations".


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jul 2013 at 17:13
The arrival of Europeans marked the transplantation of European culture from that continent to this. We are an offshoot of European civilization and are likely to remain so even after the addition of significant Asian elements to our citizenry. We can romanticise our past to please the descendants of every formerly Neolithic people who ever inhabited the North American continent, but we cannot change the fact that their intellectual, scientific, and political contributions to what became North America were minimal. We owe far more to Rome and Greece and Western Europe.

ps, Penguino. Hace una semana exactamente, estaba en Ruinas Copan en Honduras. Impresionante, si! Pero igualmente neolitico, aunque de un grado muy superior a lo de Mesa Verde.

Edited by lirelou - 23 Jul 2013 at 17:18
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jul 2013 at 02:50
European descendants are becoming a minority in North America and in Europe, native Europeans are becoming a minority as well. Pretty soon that people will feel what its like to be just a group inside a larger country; just like Native Americans once felt.

It is time that European descendants stop been so proud and selfish, and think the history of the world in a global scale. It is time they realize they aren't in control anymore, and that humanity is in control, and that humanity as a whole will rewrite history.

No army or temporary power will prevent the truth finally arrive. And at that time, the past of North America will be important once again.

Now, the cultures of the Americas weren't all "neolitical". There was metalurgy in the New World, and if you don't know, even Kahokians have metals.

In second place, the idea that the Indians didn't contribute to the development of the United States is just ignorance or even bigotry. Should I recall you that Squanto tough the peregrines to cultivate corn, and that without that knowledge the settlers would have die of hunger? Should I remember you that many customs, from drinking corn whiskey, root beer and extracting maple syrup comes from the Natives? Should I recall you that the Iroquois Confederacy served as a living model of a federal state? And from where do you think it came the American obsession with "freedom"? From enslaved Europe? No way.

Whatever, it is impossible to keep a lie forever. The history of a land start when the first human arrives, and not when the first European migrates.

Anyways, here it is the second part.




Edited by pinguin - 24 Jul 2013 at 03:08
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Captain Vancouver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jul 2013 at 04:29
Penguin- you seem to have an inward shame over the fact that native inhabitants of the new world were at rudimentary level of development when foreign interlopers appeared. This is a story repeated in many places in history, but is in no way a reflection on those alive today.
 
The items you mentioned are modest within the larger sweep of history. The fact is, "Americans" were at a level of development Europeans were at some centuries before, at time of first contact. Such is life.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fantasus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jul 2013 at 12:13
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:




European descendants are becoming a minority in North America and in Europe, native Europeans are becoming a minority as well. Pretty soon that people will feel what its like to be just a group inside a larger country; just like Native Americans once felt.


I think You should check whatever sources You have for such claims. Don´t accept them without questioning since to me it seems those "facts" are controversial.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jul 2013 at 02:40
Originally posted by Captain Vancouver Captain Vancouver wrote:

Penguin- you seem to have an inward shame over the fact that native inhabitants of the new world were at rudimentary level of development when foreign interlopers appeared. This is a story repeated in many places in history, but is in no way a reflection on those alive today.
 
The items you mentioned are modest within the larger sweep of history. The fact is, "Americans" were at a level of development Europeans were at some centuries before, at time of first contact. Such is life.


Please, don't the psychoanalytical way. I just posted some videos. Is up to you to watch them, if you wish.

With respect to "levels" of development, that's not the point. We are talking about a history purposely forgotten by an invading people. It is just like in Britain everybody remembered the Saxons and nobody recalled the Celts. Or like in Spain if everybody forgot the once that was an Iberian land that had no Latin influences. Nope, the point is not development. The point is a history that has been distorted by bigotry. It is time the history of the Americas is told as it really was.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jul 2013 at 02:44
Originally posted by fantasus fantasus wrote:

Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:




European descendants are becoming a minority in North America and in Europe, native Europeans are becoming a minority as well. Pretty soon that people will feel what its like to be just a group inside a larger country; just like Native Americans once felt.


I think You should check whatever sources You have for such claims. Don´t accept them without questioning since to me it seems those "facts" are controversial.


Just take a look to this demographic projection. Source: http://blog.datadrivendetroit.org/2013/01/03/new-census-projections-underscore-changing-demographics/




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lao Tse Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jul 2013 at 03:02
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Originally posted by fantasus fantasus wrote:

Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:




European descendants are becoming a minority in North America and in Europe, native Europeans are becoming a minority as well. Pretty soon that people will feel what its like to be just a group inside a larger country; just like Native Americans once felt.


I think You should check whatever sources You have for such claims. Don´t accept them without questioning since to me it seems those "facts" are controversial.


Just take a look to this demographic projection. Source: http://blog.datadrivendetroit.org/2013/01/03/new-census-projections-underscore-changing-demographics/





It's strange how the Ethnic grouping to which I belong is going to remain almost constant



Ok, Penguin, I have a small North American History question, and it may sound stupid, but please bear with me. Recent studies SUGGEST that the early civilizations that were believed to have remained primarily in Meso-America (i.e Mayan, Olmec,etc) possibly had territory stretching as far north as Georgia, making the Native Americans, such as the Cherokee, Shawnee, Seminole, etc descendants of the Mayans and Olmecs and whoever else was in that area. In your opinion, do you think that such may be a fact?


Edited by Lao Tse - 25 Jul 2013 at 03:10
在財富的害處,而是一件好事永遠不持續。我在和平中仅居住在新的風下。 Wei Jia Hong No harm in wealth, but a good thing doesn't last forever. I live only among peace under
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jul 2013 at 03:51
Yes. I am absolutely convinced that the advanced cultures of North America had links with Mesoamerica (Mayans, Aztecs, Olmecs). In fact, there are also evidence of contacts between Mesoamerican, Caribbean and Peruvian cultures. It is not strange if we think it a bit. All these cultures cultivated corn, some have forms of copper and bronze metallurgy, and there are also some artistic styles that look similar. Besides, religious and theological concepts are very similar all over the Americas.
Also, it is known the there was long distance travel in the Americas. The Tainos, for instance, traveled from the Caribbean all the way to Florida, Mexico and Venezuela, just in canoes. In the Pacific, there was regular balsa-rafts commerce between Colombia and Central America. And certain goods produced in Central America was consumed in Peru; for instance, sea shells.  And from Colombia, caravans also reached central Chile and Argentina.
All that shows a image of interactions among the peoples of Ancient Americas, that is different to what was thought in the past.




Edited by pinguin - 25 Jul 2013 at 03:59
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fantasus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jul 2013 at 07:05
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:


Originally posted by fantasus fantasus wrote:

Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:




European descendants are becoming a minority in North America and in Europe, native Europeans are becoming a minority as well. Pretty soon that people will feel what its like to be just a group inside a larger country; just like Native Americans once felt.


I think You should check whatever sources You have for such claims. Don´t accept them without questioning since to me it seems those "facts" are controversial.


Just take a look to this demographic projection. Source: http://blog.datadrivendetroit.org/2013/01/03/new-census-projections-underscore-changing-demographics/




A source only relevant for the first of Your claims, about North America, but You mentioned Europe too.
Also a lot of changes may happen untill 2060, that affects those trends.
The categories, particularly "hispanics" seems odd to me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Captain Vancouver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jul 2013 at 17:41
I don't think anybody has "forgotten" aboriginal societies, or the Celts for that matter. One can read anything they like about them today, in this part of the world anyway.
 
I think you are overstating aboriginal contributions to global development however. Slavery, for example, was widespread in aboriginal societies in North America before European contact (as it was in other locations at the time). It wasn't until the enlightenment that some began to think this was not such a good idea, and this was primarily a European movement.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fusong Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jul 2013 at 01:59
I have often wondered how much Chokia in modern day Saint Louis was influenced by Central America, i think it's political system may have taken from outside influences..  
Every ideology has a kernel of truth and sea of whitewash.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jul 2013 at 04:03
Originally posted by Captain Vancouver Captain Vancouver wrote:

I don't think anybody has "forgotten" aboriginal societies, or the Celts for that matter. One can read anything they like about them today, in this part of the world anyway.
 
I think you are overstating aboriginal contributions to global development however. Slavery, for example, was widespread in aboriginal societies in North America before European contact (as it was in other locations at the time). It wasn't until the enlightenment that some began to think this was not such a good idea, and this was primarily a European movement.


Sure. Native Americans societies had a lot of injustices and less than perfect situations. However, how come we remember ancient Celts and forget they practiced human sacrifices? Or how could we remember Norse forgetting tortures like the "angel"? Or ancient China and its sacrifice of servants to accompany the dead emperors, and the massive exploitation of labor? Or Rome and murder for fun in the Circus? There is no perfect society.

Now, independently of what important are Native Americans for the history of the planet, they are important to tell the history of each of the lands where they lived. It is time to stop downplaying that. Let be like the Kiwis (New Zealand's people)  who are proud of theirs Maori past.

And it was not "enlightenment" what changed things. It was the world wars with its 50 million dead and the atomic bombs what made mankind to be reasonable, at last.


Edited by pinguin - 26 Jul 2013 at 04:04
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jul 2013 at 04:07
Originally posted by fusong fusong wrote:

I have often wondered how much Chokia in modern day Saint Louis was influenced by Central America, i think it's political system may have taken from outside influences..  


I agree. Cahokia arts, agriculture and technology are similar to mesoamerican. On the other hand, there is still a debate if agriculture and civilizations in the Americas originated in Peru and then spread to Mesoamerica. Other studies indicate that probably the origin of civilizations is in the Amazon.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Captain Vancouver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jul 2013 at 06:37
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Originally posted by Captain Vancouver Captain Vancouver wrote:

I don't think anybody has "forgotten" aboriginal societies, or the Celts for that matter. One can read anything they like about them today, in this part of the world anyway.
 
I think you are overstating aboriginal contributions to global development however. Slavery, for example, was widespread in aboriginal societies in North America before European contact (as it was in other locations at the time). It wasn't until the enlightenment that some began to think this was not such a good idea, and this was primarily a European movement.


Sure. Native Americans societies had a lot of injustices and less than perfect situations. However, how come we remember ancient Celts and forget they practiced human sacrifices? Or how could we remember Norse forgetting tortures like the "angel"? Or ancient China and its sacrifice of servants to accompany the dead emperors, and the massive exploitation of labor? Or Rome and murder for fun in the Circus? There is no perfect society.

Now, independently of what important are Native Americans for the history of the planet, they are important to tell the history of each of the lands where they lived. It is time to stop downplaying that. Let be like the Kiwis (New Zealand's people)  who are proud of theirs Maori past.
 
Who has forgotten? The cruelty of ancient societies in Europe is legend. I don't see any forgetting here. As for telling the story of aboriginal societies, their traditions, for the most part, were verbal- stories were passed down by word of mouth, a notoriously inaccurate way of doing things. It was only after the arrival of Europeans, and the written recording of such events, that we came by an accurate picture of these histories.
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:


And it was not "enlightenment" what changed things. It was the world wars with its 50 million dead and the atomic bombs what made mankind to be reasonable, at last.
 
As far as slavery goes, the world wars had nothing to do with it. The abolition movement had taken a strong hold in the west by the early 19th century (except for the US, a late starter in this case), and by WW1 was only a consideration in certain backwaters. The enlightenment did indeed change ways of thinking, and it was a western European phenomenon.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jul 2013 at 03:02
Well, in the Americas the only civilization that can tell theirs history by writing is the Mayan; whose past is in the process of reconstruction. And that exception is very important, because shows that no matter it wasn't widespread, writing actually existed in the New World.

Other histories were transmitted by memorizers. The history of the Aztecs and Incas was fully reconstructed thanks to the precise traditions of the specialist to recall events on both empires. There are other traditions that are quite accurate. For instance, the events of Hiawatha are the founding of the Iroquois confederation are likely real. In other parts of the world, many records have been preserved exclusively by oral transmission, like the Sundiata of Mali or the travel of Hotu-Matua, the discoverer of Easter Island.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Captain Vancouver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jul 2013 at 23:42
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Well, in the Americas the only civilization that can tell theirs history by writing is the Mayan; whose past is in the process of reconstruction. And that exception is very important, because shows that no matter it wasn't widespread, writing actually existed in the New World.

Other histories were transmitted by memorizers. The history of the Aztecs and Incas was fully reconstructed thanks to the precise traditions of the specialist to recall events on both empires. There are other traditions that are quite accurate. For instance, the events of Hiawatha are the founding of the Iroquois confederation are likely real. In other parts of the world, many records have been preserved exclusively by oral transmission, like the Sundiata of Mali or the travel of Hotu-Matua, the discoverer of Easter Island.

 
Memory is highly fallible, and there is a tendency to editorialize- it's just human nature. Get six people to remember, and then pass on, detailed information, and you are sure to have errors. Multiply that by 100, and the story that comes out may be surprising.
 
It was the ability to read and write, and also to print books and widely disseminate knowledge, that caused a surge in human development in the 15th century.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jul 2013 at 04:37
Well, it depends of several factors. There are documented cases of well organized societies in the Americas that lacked writing, but that preserved facts very accurately in an horizon of three or four centuries. It is the case of the Aztecs and Incas, whose very detailed history was put in writing after the conquest. Those societies had organizations of memorizers, that preserved "books" by pure human memory. Something like the novel Fahrenheit 451 of Ray Bradbury. In the case of the Incas, the full bios of its emperors was preserved that way. On the other hand, the Iliad is said to be a literary work that was preserved by memorizing for several centuries before put on writing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Captain Vancouver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jul 2013 at 16:05
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Well, it depends of several factors. There are documented cases of well organized societies in the Americas that lacked writing, but that preserved facts very accurately in an horizon of three or four centuries. It is the case of the Aztecs and Incas, whose very detailed history was put in writing after the conquest. Those societies had organizations of memorizers, that preserved "books" by pure human memory. Something like the novel Fahrenheit 451 of Ray Bradbury. In the case of the Incas, the full bios of its emperors was preserved that way. On the other hand, the Iliad is said to be a literary work that was preserved by memorizing for several centuries before put on writing.
 
Ray Bradbury possessed artistic license, a cetificate not available in the real world.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jul 2013 at 17:07
I have already shown you that what Ray Bradbury dream it has already happened. For instance, all the bios of the Incas were "recorded" in oral traditions. That's how we now about Pachacutec building of Machu Picchu, for instance, and the expeditions of the great Tupac Yupanqui.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Jul 2013 at 03:46
Penguin, weren't the 'quipu' knots used as an aid to memorization. At least that is what one Peruvian told me. I took it with a grain of salt, but accepted it as plausible. I don't remember if Prescott covered it in his history of the conquest.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Jul 2013 at 03:54
Yes, they were used as memorizing devices, in a similar way the wampum was used by the Iroquois to represent treaties with symbols that help remember the details.
Quipus can be understood as accounting devices, where the color of the string represented the item, and the knots the quantities. However, there were special markers and conventions to represent things like a town's name, an event, etc. Of course, a quipu reader could those symbols to help remember details of something that happened; but so far as we know, it isn't a writing system.


Edited by pinguin - 31 Jul 2013 at 03:56
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