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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Oannes and other Fish
    Posted: 21 Mar 2018 at 00:45


Oannes or Uanna the Babylonian "water dipping" god has me again thinking about stories detailing encounters with visitors who may have helped mankind. Ancient Aliens, I wished for this kind of discussion when I was much- much younger. Then Von Daniken and his book "Chariots of the Gods" came along, I knew others where out there.

Can we discuss some of these mythical fish, sky or land dwellers and ask whether their creation and or existence was ultimately beneficial to the technical progress of humans?

There are notes free to access on Berrossus the author of the fragments related to Uanna, the Flood Chaldeans etc. Jason Colavito has ancient sources compiled in sections. He is not a true believer, very well researched and his commentary is not dull. 


What I'd like to hear from you all is whether the iterations are about actual humans. Were they cloaked and transformed in writing for esoteric, philosophical reasons?
“The United Nations is the biggest joke of this century. If each one is trying to assert his own rights there, how can there be a United Nations?” UG Krishnamurti
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Mar 2018 at 14:51
Before we delve into the supposition that ancient aliens existed, let's have a look at the author of your source link.

Jason Colavito earned a Bachelor of Arts Degree, one of the lower rated degrees, from Ithaca College, New York.

There is no record of him ever studying the sciences one usually associates with claims for or against ancient aliens visiting our planet, yet he sets himself up as the debunker of these myths. He earns his living by writing books doing just that. I can find nothing on the internet which gives him any great credibility in my mind.

Now, to the question.

There are many examples of buildings or other objects, supposedly built by humans in ancient times, well before today's technology, which still defy scientific explanation.

It's often been suggested that these things were constructed either by, or with the help of, aliens. Until modern science can explain these things, I remain with an open mind as to whether or not ancient aliens existed and visited this planet.

Back to the link again, Colavito refers to ancient texts describing monsters coming from and returning to the sea, after imparting some wisdom to the ancients. Michael Le Nostradame (Nostradamus) also wrote of men coming from the belly of a fish, according to some translations. This has been interpreted as a reference/prophecy of/to submarines. If that is so, and no one can prove either way, the references in the link could be interpreted as men in SCUBA gear, or aliens.

In various parts of the world there are ancient drawings which cannot be explained, unless one accepts that they reference aliens. One such depicts a man/person sitting in a chair and wearing what looks like a full helmet, while flames and smoke emit from underneath. It's not the only one-there are numerous unexplained ancient drawings like this. Take the NACZA Lines, and the other gigantic drawings on earth that can only be interpreted from the sky-aliens, why not?



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Mar 2018 at 06:59
There was a test of Nazca weaving and how tight it can be, an archaeology team made a balloon out of it.  (DVD course, lost civilizations of south america).  So this view that the Nazca lines _had_ to be done from above, maybe, but it could have been done by the natives.

There is nothing craft wise that is exceptional about the statues of 'fishermen,' they're just weird, but one also sees a lot of other composite creatures from Mesopotamia.

These figures "...first occur in the art of the Kassite period, after which it passed to Assyria, becoming popular in the art of the Neo-Assyrian and Neo-Babylonian Periods."....
"fish-garbed figure" from "Gods, Demons and Symbols of Ancient Mesopotamia, An Illustrated Dictionary"
Jeremy Black, Anthony Green.

Kassite=Middle Babylonian, c. 1500 BC 
late bronze age
I haven't looked at your Berossus quotes yet, but the fish-garbed figures do not date back to the Early Babylonian, or the Sumerian Periods.  The fish garbed figures are associated with the (antediluvian) seven sages, but again they are not associated with them until the Kassite Period.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Mar 2018 at 12:37
The illustration was for just for looks. Nice pic.
The Seven Sages, Seven Tablets alternate creation stories. I find his sources very accessible for the most part, due diligence on the study of the various fragments from different locations and authors including Josephus.

The creation and flood story are repeated religiously. Numbers and the "Word." A new understanding of nascent ability. Permanently reorienting man's purpose, telling the story of the "Story" exponentially detailing the story until the fish is again our symbolic and now literal creation through Tiktaalik the fish and  first tetrapod*. Darwin had his scope of understanding and his curiosities like all of us and David Icke for example.
Do the histories manifest overtime bc we are detecting what we created through intuition? Confirmed by science, it's future building not just learning about a history of Word and Numbers.

David Icke does commentary on George H Bush (and other suspected Illuminate) as being a lizard, child molester. And he has been out there saying this stuff for a few years. Then there actually appears this video of Bush, old and feeble in a wheelchair near a little girl. The most primordial movement of his hand is now Evidence!-for some. So now it doesn't matter if it's Truth. People believe it, Icke created information in words and now images exist that some people now accept as proof. 
Is it true now?*

The recent UFO footage with 3 pilots and confirmation could be Computer Generated Image. No one has debunked it so far. 


Edited by Vanuatu - 22 Mar 2018 at 15:08
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Mar 2018 at 09:49
I think what you have at the time of Berossus is Greeks doing what is called by scholars, anthropology.  The Greeks were very big on foundations and firsts. How things originate.  For example, the Lydians were said to be the first to make coins.  Palamedes came up with writing and lighthouses.  The Phoenicians came up with letters, etc.  Practically everybody came up with something, and if you didn't come up with something, then in the Greek opinion you are not worth anything.

So here we have a Babylonian priest saying that one of their sages came up with everything up to and including sliced bread.  I don't believe him (especially when he says letters), but he is placing everything in the cultural context that the Babylonians did all this.  "We" are the first, but of course, "they" are not the first, since this all comes from somewhere else.  Their gods are the first creating stuff, or rather their demigods.  A divine origin (which you can't argue with), And what can more divine than something inhuman, something weird like a fish-man?  You can't out-rationalize the Greeks, but you can do something weird. primordial, like fish speaking.  (Fish have a characterization of being mute.)

One thing though, the fish man did not invent letters, maybe writing but not letters.  We are pretty sure that Phoenician, or proto-Sinaitic script was the first.

If it is a fish, it is not an amphibian, if it is an amphibian, it is not a fish.  If I was going to make an alien, I would do something asymmetrical, something not bilateral symmetry, probably not something radial symmetry either (starfish).

The fish man imagery does not go back past the Kassite (middle Babylonian) period.  If it was something that was handed down from actual accounts from time immemorial, one would expect in in early Babylonian, or Sumerian sources.  From my understanding it does not date back that far.  Also, there are changes in the costume, with a full length tail replaced with a tail that goes down barely past the waist.  It seems to me that it is a costume and there are stylistic differences depending on whether it is Kassite or Assyrian or whatever else.

So fish man "go back" to the mythical antediluvian period, but only after the Kassite period.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Mar 2018 at 12:22
“The United Nations is the biggest joke of this century. If each one is trying to assert his own rights there, how can there be a United Nations?” UG Krishnamurti
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Mar 2018 at 13:14
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

I think what you have at the time of Berossus is Greeks doing what is called by scholars, anthropology.  The Greeks were very big on foundations and firsts. How things originate.  For example, the Lydians were said to be the first to make coins.  Palamedes came up with writing and lighthouses.  The Phoenicians came up with letters, etc.  Practically everybody came up with something, and if you didn't come up with something, then in the Greek opinion you are not worth anything.
Okay but the tablets were deciphered in the 1800's by a Frenchman. The symbol for Christianity before Constantine was the fish & the anchor. And the symbol of the fish is more ancient than the Babylonians it represents a very basic part of the human female anatomy. 

Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

So here we have a Babylonian priest saying that one of their sages came up with everything up to and including sliced bread.  I don't believe him (especially when he says letters), but he is placing everything in the cultural context that the Babylonians did all this.  "We" are the first, but of course, "they" are not the first, since this all comes from somewhere else.  Their gods are the first creating stuff, or rather their demigods.  A divine origin (which you can't argue with), And what can more divine than something inhuman, something weird like a fish-man?  You can't out-rationalize the Greeks, but you can do something weird. primordial, like fish speaking.  (Fish have a characterization of being mute.)One thing though, the fish man did not invent letters, maybe writing but not letters.  We are pretty sure that Phoenician, or proto-Sinaitic script was the first.

If it is a fish, it is not an amphibian, if it is an amphibian, it is not a fish.  If I was going to make an alien, I would do something asymmetrical, something not bilateral symmetry, probably not something radial symmetry either (starfish).

There are stories where the fish talks his way to freedom for 3 wishes, and talking fish stories from all over the world. I agree it's a primordial fish that first walks on land and has gills, if we are looking at it scientifically then gills define fish. 
What is the "Word"? Maybe it doesn't mean letters & numbers. The description of animals having parts of other animals is like evolution. The jaw of the reptile became the ear of the mammal, the embryonic developmental similarities between species and the brain's 3 part structure _continuity_across species -many indicators- evolution allows for change from the common ancestor or all in the one. That's very eventually, Jewish.

Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

The fish man imagery does not go back past the Kassite (middle Babylonian) period.  If it was something that was handed down from actual accounts from time immemorial, one would expect in in early Babylonian, or Sumerian sources.  From my understanding it does not date back that far.  Also, there are changes in the costume, with a full length tail replaced with a tail that goes down barely past the waist.  It seems to me that it is a costume and there are stylistic differences depending on whether it is Kassite or Assyrian or whatever else.

So fish man "go back" to the mythical antediluvian period, but only after the Kassite period.
So maybe the fish man has information about our past. "Word" and maybe an improved writing system. It's the idea of wisdom transferred. In Quabballah, the Sephirotic Tree, man's feet "Malkuth" Two feet, or the base of being. Oannes has fish feet, bishop means  "fish footed" and Moses was a Pisces! That is the point of the illustration. The fish costume doesn't seem to be casual but it is a reference to the Foundation of Life. 


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Mar 2018 at 06:43
Some people are so into the primordial dread elder gods of Lovecraft, that they go to used bookstores looking for the Necronomicon.  Because of that, one has been made.

My question is not whether fish, and fish-men are meaningful, rather my question is whether they are historical.  We also have talking mules in the Bible, and a talking horse on TV.

If you see the fish man, ask him if he has information about our past.  I don't see enough information to sink my teeth into, I think you want something to be there, but I don't see enough there for anything.  Maybe this is 'authentic, primordial data," I doubt it, but maybe, but that still doesn't mean there is enough of anything there to do something with it.  Sorry. 

I didn't notice that this was the alternate history thread, I do think that the fish men would make a good alternate history.  I like Stargate (the original series and the movie), all the Babylonian, Egyptian alien "gods".  One thing about aliens, if they did exist, they wouldn't necessarily visit us at our convenience.


Edited by franciscosan - 25 Mar 2018 at 12:16
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Mar 2018 at 12:29
Is God affected by prophecy? Does prophecy include consequences for God?

Jonah is eaten by the fish, he lives and that's good but he is still God's messenger for people of Nineveh who dress their animals in sackcloth to repent with them. Another fish story and weird animal imagery.
It's been interpreted as God calling them ignorant, or comparing the Ninevites to 'dumb animals.'

God doesn't want to destroy Nineveh because they were truly penitent. Or innocent like animals so there must be a universal consequence in wiping out life. 


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Mar 2018 at 13:43
It also pisses the hell out of Jonah.  He wants the Assyrians (Nineveh) to resist so that the Lord will smite them.  It is interesting that Jonah is a prophet, not for Jews (or Hebrews), but for foreigners, the Assyrians.

The interesting question is, is God limited by prophecy?  Is prophecy dependent on him, or independent on him?  Can he change his mind?  Can God have knowledge of what did not happen, (but could have)?

counterfactual claims:  If I had gone to the store this morning, I would have picked up a Dove Bar (chocolate).  Could God know whether this would have been true, if I had gone to the store?  I could have gotten there and gotten distracted, or they could be out of Dove Bars, or I could have forgotten my wallet.

One definition of omniscience has it so that God has counterfactual knowledge as well as regular knowledge.


Edited by franciscosan - 28 Mar 2018 at 07:19
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Mar 2018 at 11:56
And a hundred years later the Assyrians are dust bc they don't repent. 

Is God limited by prophesy? It seems he has to follow through on warnings about his statues and prohibitions. There is a sense that God is always allowing fate to unroll weather it seems unjust or merciful, like natural disaters.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Mar 2018 at 10:26
In the Middle Ages, the Jewish philosophers and the Islamic philosophers had an extended dialogue on prophecy.  They believed that there were two faculties, the faculty of reason (ideas) and the faculty of imagination.  Someone who had perfect reason knew the will of God, and was a philosopher.  Essentially, they could save themselves by knowing the will of God, but they couldn't save anyone else (except maybe through teaching the next generation of a philosopher, through having a disciple.)  

Someone who had perfect reason _and_ perfect imagination, knew the will of God, but not only that, but through the imagination, could communicate it to the people.  This individual is called a prophet, and what they do is prophecy, which comes from God.  So asking if God is limited by prophecy, doesn't really make sense.  It is like asking whether God can change his mind, which if God _had_to_ change his mind, he would not much be God, would he.  But, that would be a medieval interpretation.

There is another combo, imperfect reason and perfect imagination, that individual is a false prophet, who can communicate well with the people, but whose understanding of God's will is deficient.

Last of all, is most schmucks in life, with imperfect reason and imperfect imagination.

So there is your answer.  No, God is not limited _by_ prophecy, according to Medieval philosophy.

The problem of evil as an abstract, "philosophical" concern does not really personally bother me, step on my toe, or have a tree branch fall on my head, sure pain bothers me, but not as an abstract "is the world just?" kind of way. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Apr 2018 at 02:07
Just food for thought, not elevating this author/pastor beyond relevance to this discussion, God regretted the Flood. It says so in the book.

"When Saul disobeys Samuel, God says, “I regret” — or, King James, I repent— “that I have made Saul king, for he has turned back from following me and has not performed my commandments.” That is 1 Samuel 15:11. So, some have argued, as I said, that, since God repents or regrets making him king, therefore, if he had it to do over again, he wouldn’t because he couldn’t see what was coming. Else, why would he repent or regret if he knew in advance the consequence of his decision and chose to do it anyway?"
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Apr 2018 at 05:46
An Ancient Alien Creator God- has a plan gets angry maybe impedes progress has regrets but the "prophecy" is the vehicle for communication. God's prophets (PR guys) can't get it wrong.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Apr 2018 at 10:51
In medieval Judaism, God's knowledge is self-knowledge, the prophet and the philosopher are both able to "rise" above daily concerns, and touch the mind of God, but the philosopher cannot really _do_ anything with it, whereas the prophet can communicate it to the people.  That does not mean he (the prophet) is 'telling it like it is' in some fundamentalist "literal" interpretation, the prophet is doing what God requires, not what an ordinary mortal thinks he should do.  
 I think that when there are statements in the Bible about God's regret, that has more to do with man, and what man wants to/_has_ to hear, than it does about a detached assessment of what God's emotion state is, something which we really cannot understand anyway (except, maybe, if we are a prophet or a philosopher).  In a way, the philosopher is writing for another philosopher, who may or may not come around in a lifetime, or a thousand lifetimes.  The prophet is preaching to the people, but even the sharp ones are only getting 10% (yes, only 10%), of what the prophet is saying.  The philosopher can get more, but it really takes another prophet to understand previous prophet(s).

By "philosopher" I don't mean someone with the supposedly 'appropriate' degree.  In fact "professional" philosophy might actually be the opposite of living philosophy.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Apr 2018 at 00:52
If the "Word' isn't a word it could be sound. Look at these stones, any thoughts on this connection to the mind of God?

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Apr 2018 at 07:34
I am not sure what you are asking.  I am not sure that God has a mind, we individually have a mind, in the sense that we each have a perspective, a point of view.  I am not sure God has a (limited) point of view, but rather sub specie aeternae.  Of course, in becoming Jesus, God gains a point of view, and personal knowledge of suffering.

Tihuanaco has amazing ruins, but I don't see it as evidence of aliens.  Diorite and granite are rocks, diamond is a mineral, not exactly the same thing.  Also, something may be hard, but brittle, or hard but have planes of fracture (cleavage).

We assume that aliens would want to leave remains behind for people to find them, but what if aliens (if they exist) had a prime directive?  In Boy Scouts, we policed the campsite and picked up trash before we left, even trash we didn't drop.  Why wouldn't aliens do the same thing?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Apr 2018 at 06:34
Anaximander of Miletus (d.546 BC) thought that humans may have come from fish, according to some sources (Hippolytus, Plutarch Symposium), or that they came from animals other than humans, because of the long time that human infants are helpless.  Anaximander is the second philosopher after Thales of Miletus.

Very simple ideas pointing in the direction of evolution, but not quite there yet....
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