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Occupied Ireland.

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    Posted: 05 Mar 2012 at 20:58


The inhabitants of Northern Ireland have in the past voted to remain British. There is only one thing wrong with that, free Ireland to the South was not invited to participate. It is after all Ireland. And it is after all inhabited by free Irishmen and Irishwomen. Those in the occupied North with their Scot/English names should be encouraged to stay, or if they want to be British, given a ticket for the ferry. Is it not time for the British to go on home, with these cousins of the Malvina islanders?

I wonder how long this one will last.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fusong Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Mar 2012 at 21:58
I have to agree with that my self but mind you there are many more Saxons in the world than the celts
Every ideology has a kernel of truth and sea of whitewash.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Mar 2012 at 22:25
The Northern Irish are just as Irish as the Southern Irish. The Scots are in fact Irish also. Should the Scots who came from Ireland and occupied British territory be required to go back to Ireland?
Also many of the inhabitants of the southern part are in fact descendants of Englishmen, Scotsmen and Welshmen - should they be required to to back to England, Scotland and Wales?
 
And of course isn't it time all those Germans that occupied North America went back home to Europe? The 'Arabs' (those of them that really are) could go back to Arabia. Hawaii ought to be left to the Polynesians no? What right has the US to occupy it, let alone what right do anyone but Amerindians have to live in North America?
 
Of course the English, at least the Anglo-Saxons, should go back to Germany, the English Danes back to Denmark, the Celts back to continental Europe, and Great Britain returned to whom? The Basques?
 
And certainly the Church of Rome should be booted out of Ireland and religion restored to the Church of Ireland, or some earlier form that might be discovered.
 
The Northern Irish have as much right to give allegiance where they please as the Southern Irish do. Ireland is not one country, any more than Timor or New Guinea or the Iberian peninsula are.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Buckskins Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Mar 2012 at 23:24
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

The Northern Irish are just as Irish as the Southern Irish.

Indeed they are.

 The Scots are in fact Irish also.

 Lucy may care to differ.

 Should the Scots who came from Ireland and occupied British territory be required to go back to Ireland?

Do what you want with them.
 
Also many of the inhabitants of the southern part are in fact descendants of Englishmen, Scotsmen and Welshmen - should they be required to to back to England, Scotland and Wales?

Absolutely not.
 
And of course isn't it time all those Germans that occupied North America went back home to Europe?

Who would pay for the exhumations?

 The 'Arabs' (those of them that really are) could go back to Arabia.

 Now that one we can discuss.

 Hawaii ought to be left to the Polynesians no?

 No, there are no native Hawaiians left. They interbred with Americans.

 What right has the US to occupy it

We don't occupy it.

, let alone what right do anyone but Amerindians have to live in North America?

Who gave it to the Amerindians ?
 
Of course the English, at least the Anglo-Saxons, should go back to Germany, the English Danes back to Denmark, the Celts back to continental Europe, and Great Britain returned to whom? The Basques?

Well, I doubt they would want it.
 
And certainly the Church of Rome should be booted out of Ireland and religion restored to the Church of Ireland, or some earlier form that might be discovered.

What does religion have to do with the British occupying Ireland. Let the Irish people sort out their own problems.
 
The Northern Irish have as much right to give allegiance where they please as the Southern Irish do.

Then they are not Irish.

 Ireland is not one country, any more than Timor or New Guinea or the Iberian peninsula are.

Because the British occupy a portion of Ireland does not make it British.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paradigm of Humanity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Mar 2012 at 00:54
This is a world dominated by force. So, please stop trying to being politically correct. Deep inside everyone has their own judgement of ethics. This leads to this kind of conflicts. Rarely things solved with both sides happy. But I know almost every person in this forum loves arguing. That is only reason why this kind of pointless debates continues many pages. And of course, everyone still will be insistent on their arguments in end of discussions. Clown
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Mar 2012 at 10:04
You're right. Moeover what should happen to Ireland is not a historical topic but a current affairs one.
 
So moved.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Northman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Mar 2012 at 11:20
Originally posted by Paradigm of Humanity Paradigm of Humanity wrote:

......... And of course, everyone still will be insistent on their arguments in end of discussions. Clown
 
Indeed - only very few will admit they have been wrong, even to themselves.
This is the foremost handicap which prevents people from learning and become wiser.
 
 


Edited by Northman - 06 Mar 2012 at 11:22
   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dolphin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Mar 2012 at 15:10
People on the border between Northern Ireland and the South are more than happy with their arrangement, whether they are Catholic, Protestant, 'Nationalist' or 'Unionist'. The freedom to pick and choose value on goods and services, healthcare, job opportunities and other possibly more clandestine pursuits far outweighs any underlying desire for 32 county unity. The great irony is that for many of the staunchest republicans / nationalists (or whatever they casually self-refer as), they wouldn't have the current arrangement any other way, because financially and in terms of quality of life the border is a plus point.

Also, for a pretend state that the North is, they have it easy. Massive social spending over the past twenty years, high average wages, free healthcare, their own parliament, great infrastructure etc, all for the 'price' of not being part of the bust Republic?? Where I'm from, there's a history of 'visiting workers' from the North, ostensively Nationalist, working in our public sector, more than happy to take an inflated wage from their mother land and pump it back into the Queen's coinpurse when they drive home every evening. 

I wouldn't get too hung up about 32 county unity. Economics takes precedence over that.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dolphin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Mar 2012 at 15:19
The border is now an economic one, it has no real corporeal 'presence'. I drift into the North once a week to buy cigs and the only thing you notice is a change in the road signs from kilometres to miles, if even. 

As a side point, most Catholic../Nationalist../Republican people in the North, the real North up in Derry or Belfast, have a strong sense of identity as Northerners or Northern Irish. It's not as big a bone of contention as you may think.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Buckskins Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Mar 2012 at 16:31
Originally posted by Dolphin Dolphin wrote:

People on the border between Northern Ireland and the South are more than happy with their arrangement, whether they are Catholic, Protestant, 'Nationalist' or 'Unionist'. The freedom to pick and choose value on goods and services, healthcare, job opportunities and other possibly more clandestine pursuits far outweighs any underlying desire for 32 county unity. The great irony is that for many of the staunchest republicans / nationalists (or whatever they casually self-refer as), they wouldn't have the current arrangement any other way, because financially and in terms of quality of life the border is a plus point.

Hi Dolphin, don't you agree that there is more to Ireland than the fortunate folks on the border.

Also, for a pretend state that the North is, they have it easy. Massive social spending over the past twenty years, high average wages, free healthcare, their own parliament, great infrastructure etc, all for the 'price' of not being part of the bust Republic?? Where I'm from, there's a history of 'visiting workers' from the North, ostensively Nationalist, working in our public sector, more than happy to take an inflated wage from their mother land and pump it back into the Queen's coinpurse when they drive home every evening. 

Well it's no secret that London has been pumping money into Occupied Ireland, and the Northerners are better off at the moment in services and spending power. That is a fluid situation however. England is in big financial trouble, and they could be close to losing Scottish oil. They also have no export industry to speak of.

I wouldn't get too hung up about 32 county unity. Economics takes precedence over that.

I have to disagree with that. It does to some of course. Just my opinion.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Buckskins Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Mar 2012 at 16:42
Originally posted by Dolphin Dolphin wrote:

The border is now an economic one, it has no real corporeal 'presence'. I drift into the North once a week to buy cigs and the only thing you notice is a change in the road signs from kilometres to miles, if even. 

You really should quit smoking. I guess you're tired of hearing that.

As a side point, most Catholic../Nationalist../Republican people in the North, the real North up in Derry or Belfast, have a strong sense of identity as Northerners or Northern Irish. It's not as big a bone of contention as you may think.

I'm Texan, but I am also a proud American. If you ask most Americans where they are from, most will reply with their state. We had a really nasty civil war as you know between North and South, yet ask a southerner his nationality, and the reply is American. I think it's only normal for people to have a very strong allegiance to their part of the world. I would not say that always trumps their love of country. It could also be that many in the North will go along to get along, and who can blame them.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Mar 2012 at 16:53
And why may I ask do we need to discuss Arabs returning to Arabia while other aforementioned scenarios are perfectly OK with you?
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dolphin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Mar 2012 at 16:57
The South doesn't want the North anyways. They would be a large drain on our economy (at least up to medium term), with or without a recession. It's probably more likely that Britain will try to offload the North in the pretty distant future, rather than conceding it back to the Republic.

As a side point Buckskins, is Texas not 'occupied' too? Should you not be handing it back to the Amerindians?



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Buckskins Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Mar 2012 at 17:12
Originally posted by Dolphin Dolphin wrote:

The South doesn't want the North anyways. They would be a large drain on our economy (at least up to medium term), with or without a recession. It's probably more likely that Britain will try to offload the North in the pretty distant future, rather than conceding it back to the Republic.

West Germany went deep into the financial hole when the wall collapsed. I don't doubt Irishmen and Irishwomen would do the same.

As a side point Buckskins, is Texas not 'occupied' too? Should you not be handing it back to the Amerindians?

Why? we didn't take it from them.  Smile

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dolphin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Mar 2012 at 18:52
There's been Scottish Protestants living on the island of Ireland longer than there has been European settlers living in Texas. It's quite reasonable to state under your logic that maybe you too should be shipped back to Europe (assuming you are not Native American of course).

Also, being Northern Irish is different to being British, and for many on both sides of the fence that is enough.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Mar 2012 at 19:37
When you return Texas to the Mexicans so they can give it back to the natives we can start discussing taking Northern Ireland from the Northern Irish and give it to someone else who doesn't live there. Since it's all up to us internet warriors.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Mar 2012 at 20:06
Originally posted by Buckskins Buckskins wrote:

England is in big financial trouble, and they could be close to losing Scottish oil. They also have no export industry to speak of.
 
You have some evidence for any of that?
 
The UK is the world's fifth biggest trading country. It's trade deficit was £1.109 billion in December 2011, the best since 2003. Exports were £41.5 billion
 
Quote The United Kingdom's exports manufactured items like telecommunications equipment, automobiles, automatic data processing equipment, medicinal and pharmaceutical products and aircraft. Its main trading partners are European Union countries, the United States, China and Japan
 
The US's trade deficit in the same month was by comparison $48.8 billion. Exports were $178.8 billion.
 
Per capita, that's about a £22 deficit in the UK, and a $160 deficit in the US.
 
Per capita exports were about £830 in the UK, $596 in the US. Per capita the UK currently exports about twice as much as the US does.
 
The UK has some financial problems, but nothing like the crises overhanging the US. Moreover the current UK government seems to be intent on magnifying the problems it has, for some political reason of its own.
 
 


Edited by gcle2003 - 06 Mar 2012 at 20:22
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Buckskins Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Mar 2012 at 22:15
Originally posted by Dolphin Dolphin wrote:

There's been Scottish Protestants living on the island of Ireland longer than there has been European settlers living in Texas. It's quite reasonable to state under your logic that maybe you too should be shipped back to Europe (assuming you are not Native American of course).

I don't think it is. If Protestants wish to continue living in Ireland, good on them.  Why should I be deported from Texas if were Protestant?  I was discussing the British, not loyal Irish people.  

Quote
Also, being Northern Irish is different to being British,

How can it be different when in fact the Northern Irish are British, whether they like it or not.

Quote
 and for many on both sides of the fence that is enough.

And for many it is not.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Buckskins Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Mar 2012 at 22:18
Styrbiorn. I find your post unworthy of a rebuttal.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Buckskins Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Mar 2012 at 22:23
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Originally posted by Buckskins Buckskins wrote:

England is in big financial trouble, and they could be close to losing Scottish oil. They also have no export industry to speak of.
 
You have some evidence for any of that?
 
The UK is the world's fifth biggest trading country. It's trade deficit was £1.109 billion in December 2011, the best since 2003. Exports were £41.5 billion
 
Quote The United Kingdom's exports manufactured items like telecommunications equipment, automobiles, automatic data processing equipment, medicinal and pharmaceutical products and aircraft. Its main trading partners are European Union countries, the United States, China and Japan
 
The US's trade deficit in the same month was by comparison $48.8 billion. Exports were $178.8 billion.
 
Per capita, that's about a £22 deficit in the UK, and a $160 deficit in the US.
 
Per capita exports were about £830 in the UK, $596 in the US. Per capita the UK currently exports about twice as much as the US does.
 
The UK has some financial problems, but nothing like the crises overhanging the US. Moreover the current UK government seems to be intent on magnifying the problems it has, for some political reason of its own.
 
 

Please stay on topic Graham.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dolphin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Mar 2012 at 22:56
Originally posted by Buckskins Buckskins wrote:

I don't think it is. If Protestants wish to continue living in Ireland, good on them.  Why should I be deported from Texas if were Protestant?  I was discussing the British, not loyal Irish people.  

....Where to start? Where are you getting this Protestant thing? We're talking about settlement and retrofitting rightful ownership, if such was possible, not religion. 

Many in Northern Ireland call themselves Irish, many don't. Some self-refer as "Northern Irish". That's why we've had problems there before Eyebrow 

What does "loyal Irish" even mean? Are you talking about North or South of the border, or both? Incidentally some of the loyalist Irish I have come across are Protestants living (for generations) in the South. I can just picture your cogs turning extra fast to synthesise that one.

Quote
How can it be different when in fact the Northern Irish are British, whether they like it or not.

So Nationalist Catholics in Northern Ireland are British then? Are Unionist Protestants in the Republic Irish?

Quote
And for many it is not.

I take it you've visited, engaged with all communities and come to a balanced conclusion? People are tired of this rubbish. Only a small band of undereducated bogtrotters seem to think the 'war' is still happening. Everybody else just wants to move on and enjoy their life.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Mar 2012 at 23:20
Originally posted by Buckskins Buckskins wrote:

Styrbiorn. I find your post unworthy of a rebuttal.


Your whole country is taken by force from its owners; I find it peculiar you are whining about other countries' once conquered territories - especially when the people of said territories have chosen to belong to said countries.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Buckskins Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Mar 2012 at 23:31

I don't think it is. If Protestants wish to continue living in Ireland, good on them.  Why should I be deported from Texas if were Protestant?  I was discussing the British, not loyal Irish people. 


Quote ....Where to start? Where are you getting this Protestant thing? We're talking about settlement and retrofitting rightful ownership, if such was possible, not religion.  


Does this ring a bell?
"There's been Scottish Protestants living on the island of Ireland longer than there has been European settlers living in Texas. It's quite reasonable to state under your logic that maybe you too should be shipped back to Europe"



Quote What does "loyal Irish" even mean? Are you talking about North or South of the border, or both? Incidentally some of the loyalist Irish I have come across are Protestants living (for generations) in the South. I can just picture your cogs turning extra fast to synthesise that one.

Can you please post without the little snide remarks. Thanks.
Loyal Irish. We are discussing Northern Ireland. Irish people that live in the Occupied zone who do not wish to be British, and are loyal to a unified Ireland. So you have Protestants living in the South. I already said good on them. I don't care if they are Buddhist.


How can it be different when in fact the Northern Irish are British, whether they like it or not.

Quote
So Nationalist Catholics in Northern Ireland are British then? Are Unionist Protestants in the Republic Irish?

It is not a question of religion. If anyone wishes to remain in Northern Ireland when the country is united, of any religion , that's hunkie dory.


Quote I take it you've visited, engaged with all communities and come to a balanced conclusion? People are tired of this rubbish. Only a small band of undereducated bogtrotters seem to think the 'war' is still happening. Everybody else just wants to move on and enjoy their life.

Why would anyone think the war is still happening. You're letting yourself get a little upset. Just relax.


Edited by Buckskins - 07 Mar 2012 at 00:01
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I bow to your logic. Goodnight
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Mar 2012 at 09:02
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Originally posted by Buckskins Buckskins wrote:

England is in big financial trouble, and they could be close to losing Scottish oil. They also have no export industry to speak of.
 
You have some evidence for any of that?
 
The UK is the world's fifth biggest trading country. It's trade deficit was £1.109 billion in December 2011, the best since 2003. Exports were £41.5 billion
 
Quote The United Kingdom's exports manufactured items like telecommunications equipment, automobiles, automatic data processing equipment, medicinal and pharmaceutical products and aircraft. Its main trading partners are European Union countries, the United States, China and Japan
 
The US's trade deficit in the same month was by comparison $48.8 billion. Exports were $178.8 billion.
 
Per capita, that's about a £22 deficit in the UK, and a $160 deficit in the US.
 
Per capita exports were about £830 in the UK, $596 in the US. Per capita the UK currently exports about twice as much as the US does.
 
The UK has some financial problems, but nothing like the crises overhanging the US. Moreover the current UK government seems to be intent on magnifying the problems it has, for some political reason of its own.
 


I'm exporting my services to Switzerland and Russia next week for a not insubstantial sum - doing my bit to balance the deficit.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Buckskins Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Mar 2012 at 13:00
Originally posted by Dolphin Dolphin wrote:

I bow to your logic. Goodnight

Really Dolphin, I don't want a silly argument with you. I have thoroughly enjoyed your posts in other threads. Perhaps you and I should drop it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Buckskins Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Mar 2012 at 13:02

 
Quote

I'm exporting my services to Switzerland and Russia next week for a not insubstantial sum - doing my bit to balance the deficit.

Good for you Zagros. Way to go. High five.


Edited by Buckskins - 07 Mar 2012 at 13:04
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Windemere Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Mar 2012 at 15:31
The current political situation in Northern Ireland seems to be a combination of power-sharing between Britain and Ireland, along with local (Northern Irish) self-government, and this is the best arrangement. It isn't ever going to be possible to please everyone. No one wants to revive the Troubles hopefully, and the only solution is a compromise. 
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gcle2003 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Mar 2012 at 15:42
Originally posted by Buckskins Buckskins wrote:

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Originally posted by Buckskins Buckskins wrote:

England is in big financial trouble, and they could be close to losing Scottish oil. They also have no export industry to speak of.
 
You have some evidence for any of that?
 
The UK is the world's fifth biggest trading country. It's trade deficit was £1.109 billion in December 2011, the best since 2003. Exports were £41.5 billion
 
Quote The United Kingdom's exports manufactured items like telecommunications equipment, automobiles, automatic data processing equipment, medicinal and pharmaceutical products and aircraft. Its main trading partners are European Union countries, the United States, China and Japan
 
The US's trade deficit in the same month was by comparison $48.8 billion. Exports were $178.8 billion.
 
Per capita, that's about a £22 deficit in the UK, and a $160 deficit in the US.
 
Per capita exports were about £830 in the UK, $596 in the US. Per capita the UK currently exports about twice as much as the US does.
 
The UK has some financial problems, but nothing like the crises overhanging the US. Moreover the current UK government seems to be intent on magnifying the problems it has, for some political reason of its own.
 
 

Please stay on topic Graham.
 
You're the one introduced the subject. I can't help it if you make ridiculous off-topic comments; they are still open to refutation and yours here were pure pipe-dream stuff, as I showed.
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gcle2003 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Mar 2012 at 15:48
Originally posted by Buckskins Buckskins wrote:


Why would anyone think the war is still happening. You're letting yourself get a little upset. Just relax.
What happened to your objection to 'snide remarks' Nothing could be more snide, more personal, more offensive than that. In fact I'm only nor deleting it to make the point.
 
And by the way, while the formatting has improved, you are still not managing to distinguish your earlier comments that people have already responded to from new comments in response to those responses, so it is still difficult to follow.
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