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Palestine new U.N Status

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    Posted: 01 Dec 2012 at 00:11
Recently the U.N has recognized Palestine as an "non-member state" which is the same status as the Vatican is, during the vote 138 countries voted in favor of Palestine and 9 opposed including the U.S and Israel, both the U.S and Israel and many who opposed are saying that this move by the Palestinians is wrong and is getting in the way of making them become a true state, they also said that this new status was harming the peace process and the only way to resolve this is through a direct negotiation between the two (Israel and Palestine). Do you agree with the U.S and Israel's statement? another question I have is, since Palestine now has the power to bring Israel into the ICC and charge them with war crimes, do you think Palestine will do it?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Captain Vancouver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Dec 2012 at 08:50
If I agreed with that statement, I suppose I would also have to get back to that real estate agent who offered me the fantastic deal on the Brooklyn Bridge.

There are no direct negotiations because Israel perceives itself in a secure position. It's lobbyists hold a strong position in Washington, and so far it has a monopoly on nuclear weapons in the region. As long as this picture is unchanging, Israeli governments will probably continue on confiscating more land for settlement, squeezing Palestinians to the point were they will (they hope) fade away. They haven't given any indication that they will actually do this however, and there is the root of the problem. Washington  is not going to push Israel into "direct negotiations", and Israel isn't going to initiate them until the strategic balance tips. 

The UN vote was the right thing to do. To our shame and disgrace, our current government voted with Israel on this, presumably because of the wacko religious beliefs of the leadership, and also because of a couple of politically strategic constituencies with a significant Jewish presence here at home.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Paradigm of Humanity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Dec 2012 at 21:43
United States + Israel + two countries + one puppet US banana republic + four village scale micro US puppet... And still there's not much UN can do LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Panther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Dec 2012 at 23:29
Originally posted by Po-Binnasaur Po-Binnasaur wrote:

Recently the U.N has recognized Palestine as an "non-member state" which is the same status as the Vatican is, during the vote 138 countries voted in favor of Palestine and 9 opposed including the U.S and Israel, both the U.S and Israel and many who opposed are saying that this move by the Palestinians is wrong and is getting in the way of making them become a true state, they also said that this new status was harming the peace process and the only way to resolve this is through a direct negotiation between the two (Israel and Palestine). Do you agree with the U.S and Israel's statement? another question I have is, since Palestine now has the power to bring Israel into the ICC and charge them with war crimes, do you think Palestine will do it?


Yes, i agree, it does harm the peace process and also their becoming a true state. However, my main problem with Israel is the "settlement expansion" issue. It just needs to stop and the land won since the sixties ought to be put up for arbitration before the UN and a return to the original borders as they were, if possible. Otherwise, peace will be more elusive than ever, there will be no reduction in war and Israeli strength is not certain, but a transitory thing like any power.

Do they now have this power in the ICC? Yes, i think they will do it. It's not a question of if but when... will they bring charges against Israel?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Captain Vancouver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Dec 2012 at 09:17
Originally posted by Panther Panther wrote:

Originally posted by Po-Binnasaur Po-Binnasaur wrote:

Recently the U.N has recognized Palestine as an "non-member state" which is the same status as the Vatican is, during the vote 138 countries voted in favor of Palestine and 9 opposed including the U.S and Israel, both the U.S and Israel and many who opposed are saying that this move by the Palestinians is wrong and is getting in the way of making them become a true state, they also said that this new status was harming the peace process and the only way to resolve this is through a direct negotiation between the two (Israel and Palestine). Do you agree with the U.S and Israel's statement? another question I have is, since Palestine now has the power to bring Israel into the ICC and charge them with war crimes, do you think Palestine will do it?


Yes, i agree, it does harm the peace process and also their becoming a true state.
 
How does this harm the peace process?
 
Originally posted by Panther Panther wrote:

However, my main problem with Israel is the "settlement expansion" issue. It just needs to stop and the land won since the sixties ought to be put up for arbitration before the UN and a return to the original borders as they were, if possible. Otherwise, peace will be more elusive than ever, there will be no reduction in war and Israeli strength is not certain, but a transitory thing like any power.

Do they now have this power in the ICC? Yes, i think they will do it. It's not a question of if but when... will they bring charges against Israel?
 
Arbitration is not a bad idea. But the chances of Israel going for it are remote. Their claim is historically and geographically tenuous, and demographics are against them. Any sort of reasonable settlement would put them in either a minority position in Palestine, or in a militarily awkward disposition. They are very unlikely to accept either if they continue to hold the nuclear monopoly, and also hold Washington by the short and curlies.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Dec 2012 at 11:25
Great news. Israel should be forced to behave like a civilized country, at last. In any case, Palestinians should also make an effort to get rid of extremists. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Dec 2012 at 10:39
Israeli politicians go on and on about Palestinians not recognising its right to exist.  Well, my friends that's a two way street.

Israel doesn't recognise the 1967 border as defined by the ICC and thus does not recognise the right of the state of Palestine to exist.  Israel wishes to arbitrarily and unilaterally - with the support of its coerced friends - define the border on its terms, that's why it keeps breaking international laws and norms with the maintenance, building and expansion of settlements and devastating military raids designed to undermine the viability of Palestine.  Recent sentiments from senior Israeli political figures actually reflect the motive of Israel as a state to ethnically cleans the occupied territories and annex them.  Thankfully international law does not permit this and Palestine's recognition as a state gives it legal rights with which to challenge Israel's infringements.  Israel and America are pissed off because now Israel can be challenged legally, in however symbolic a form, it can be challenged and its evil doing highlighted by an objective international legal framework.  They don't like this.

If states can be psychopathic then Israel is the model example, exhibiting almost all the behavioral features.

IMO the Palestine-Israel issue is the major obstacle for ME peace.   resolving it brings two points  immediately to mind: you would pull a major raison d'etre of the IRI from under its feet and Al Qaeda types could no longer point to it as a recruitment sergeant for Islamic terror and anti-Westernism in general. 

This isn't about left wing, right wing, conservative, liberal viewpoints; it's objective, it's about justice.


Edited by Zagros - 06 Dec 2012 at 10:42
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Captain Vancouver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Dec 2012 at 23:04
Ironically Israel may have sealed its own fate by pushing confiscation and settlement in Arab areas to the point where any kind of Palestinian state is not possible. Takeover and building on the "E 1" area may be the last nail in the coffin of a two state settlement. That leaves two options.
 
One secular, multi-ethnic country, with Arabs as at least equal partners, if not dominant due to demographics. Or, and non-democratic, apartheid like state with Palestinians herded onto reservations.
 
The first means the end of Israel as it is now thought of, and the second means endless conflict, perhaps nuclear at some point. Israel should have made their deal at Oslo, when they were ahead of the game.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paradigm of Humanity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Dec 2012 at 06:58
Originally posted by Captain Vancouver Captain Vancouver wrote:


One secular, multi-ethnic country, with Arabs as at least equal partners, if not dominant due to demographics. Or, and non-democratic, apartheid like state with Palestinians herded onto reservations.
They already archieved later one. But such a status quo can't last forever. Palestians currently squeezed in an area less than %5 of whole Palestine. In enclaves with walls... Like concentration camps...

This is what left of Palestine. Palestinians must consider leaving Palestine seriously. This land no longer worths shedding blood. It's a lost cause.




Edited by Paradigm of Humanity - 07 Dec 2012 at 06:59
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Dec 2012 at 16:38
Israel will not be destroyed and will continue as a state, however, in the long term it is its viability as a state that is in jeopardy.  America isn't going to be there forever, it will slow down and its economic dominance will cease.  At the same time, Arab and Muslim states can only grow in economic power and become more democratic.  Successful democratic Arab and Muslim states will not stand in the sidelines like the Persian Gulf States and Jordan etc currently do* - they will not tolerate it they will square on Israel through economic means.  This is what the Israeli establishment fear the most - not a nuclear Iran and that is why it is in their interest to cause strife and chaos in Arab and Muslim states and stifle their progress if they are not already its "allies" by that association with America, in which case progress is an abstract concept anyway.

*and actually subserve Israeli interests whether intentionally or because they are too stupid to realise by propagating extremism, division and violence 


Edited by Zagros - 07 Dec 2012 at 16:39
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paradigm of Humanity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Dec 2012 at 20:15
Originally posted by Paradigm of Humanity Paradigm of Humanity wrote:

This is what left of Palestine. Palestinians must consider leaving Palestine seriously. This land no longer worths shedding blood. It's a lost cause.

If only they had somewhere to go... And that is the tragic part, isn't it?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Captain Vancouver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Dec 2012 at 03:22
A relentless policy endures, the question is, why is it allowed in the larger world community?
 
"The number of Jews living in the West Bank has doubled in the past 12 years, and they now account for one-fifth of the population there. Jewish settlements, roads reserved for Jewish settlers, and Israeli military bases and reservations now cover 40 percent of the West Bank’s territory. But to retain U.S. support, Netanyahu still has to pretend that he is really interested in a two-state solution.

That’s why he had to wait for the right excuse before building on “E-1” and sealing East Jerusalem off from the West Bank. But he always intended to kill off the “peace process”, and in practice he succeeded long ago.

Why do his Western allies in the United States and elsewhere put up with this fraud? Because they cannot think of anything else to do."

http://www.straight.com/article-852601/vancouver/gwynne-dyer-death-middle-east-peace-process
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Panther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Dec 2012 at 09:33
Originally posted by Captain Vancouver Captain Vancouver wrote:

 
How does this harm the peace process?
 


Apologies for missing this. How does it harm the peace process? Geographically speaking, it is my opinion that it is because the Israelis holds most of the lands and thus the majority of the cards, as is current. A good example of this is taking from Frank Jacobs website - Strange Maps

PALESTINE map

All the constant warring, political wrangling and back and forth accusations between the two have not benefited the Palestinians position. That much is obvious. Now i could be wrong, but what very little gains they had made in self rule from last decade, seems to be coming close to the brink of them losing nearly everything except the appetite for warring against Israel. 

This is a very big gamble and i just don't think it is going to pay the dividends that they are hoping for? Then again, being a gamble, it just might at least do... what exactly?



Edited by Panther - 09 Dec 2012 at 09:36
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Captain Vancouver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Dec 2012 at 17:09
Originally posted by Panther Panther wrote:

Originally posted by Captain Vancouver Captain Vancouver wrote:

 
How does this harm the peace process?
 


Apologies for missing this. How does it harm the peace process? Geographically speaking, it is my opinion that it is because the Israelis holds most of the lands and thus the majority of the cards, as is current. A good example of this is taking from Frank Jacobs website - Strange Maps

PALESTINE map

All the constant warring, political wrangling and back and forth accusations between the two have not benefited the Palestinians position. That much is obvious. Now i could be wrong, but what very little gains they had made in self rule from last decade, seems to be coming close to the brink of them losing nearly everything except the appetite for warring against Israel. 

This is a very big gamble and i just don't think it is going to pay the dividends that they are hoping for? Then again, being a gamble, it just might at least do... what exactly?

 
So what you seem to be saying is that because they hold such a weak position they should shut up and hope for the best? Not a great negociating tactic if you ask me.
 
The anger of Israel and the US at the move comes not from endangering the peace process, but from illustrating their isolation in the world community, and raising the spector of Israel  having to honestly face some inconvienent facts. It undermines the Israeli policy of doing exactly what the above maps suggest- taking all of historical Palestine for themsevles by making the remaining fragments intolerable and unsustainable.
 
Of course Israel can't say this directly, and so must project their angst in another direction, transparent as that might be.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Dec 2012 at 17:18
Originally posted by Panther Panther wrote:

Originally posted by Captain Vancouver Captain Vancouver wrote:

 
How does this harm the peace process?
 


Apologies for missing this. How does it harm the peace process? Geographically speaking, it is my opinion that it is because the Israelis holds most of the lands and thus the majority of the cards, as is current. A good example of this is taking from Frank Jacobs website - Strange Maps

PALESTINE map

All the constant warring, political wrangling and back and forth accusations between the two have not benefited the Palestinians position. That much is obvious. Now i could be wrong, but what very little gains they had made in self rule from last decade, seems to be coming close to the brink of them losing nearly everything except the appetite for warring against Israel. 

This is a very big gamble and i just don't think it is going to pay the dividends that they are hoping for? Then again, being a gamble, it just might at least do... what exactly?

 
If the Palestinian bent over (as happened before 1947) 55% of their lands were confiscated by the UN under British supervision and given to the jews. If they negotiated half of the rest was confiscated because of "natural growth" as happened in the years of "peace" (1992-2000). Now when they go to the UN it is their fault and the US, which by the way wholly financed the settlement building during "peace" stood by Israel. Why On God's green earth should the Palestinians listen to anyone?
 
They are f*ked either way and it is better to legalise their status right now than to be forced to accept it de facto.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paradigm of Humanity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Dec 2012 at 17:35
All these process pierced into the very consciousness of Israel. Now Israel is a miniature Nazi Germany, a dangerous state run by dangerous people ready to commit and justify everything with "necessity of living space for survival", a lebensraum.

Edited by Paradigm of Humanity - 09 Dec 2012 at 17:39
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Centrix Redux Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Dec 2012 at 05:08
The Lie That Broke Israel's Back
"The Palestinian territory occupied since 1967" appeared, in one form or another, some dozen times in the U.N. resolution. This whopper of an old lie, told so often and for so long as to merge fantasy with reality, made Israel's defeat at the U.N. a long time coming. One might say that it made Israel's defeat historically inevitable.


"Occupied Palestinian Territory" (OPT) is a thing of smoke and mirrors. Historically, it never happened; legally, there never was Palestinian territory for Israel to occupy. Israel took the territories from Egypt and Jordan in 1967, and there's no getting away from that. So today Israel has more right than Jordan to be occupying the West Bank, and more right than Egypt to be occupying Gaza (if Israel's blockade may be called occupation). "Palestine" never enters the equation. Turn Middle East wars and laws upside-down and any way you like, but if the territories belong to any U.N. member, or quasi-member, they belong to Israel.
 
 
 
 
 
 
For those willing to learn more about how one defeats the Islamist, fascist, terrorist propogandists and their innumerable mouthpieces on forums and blogs...and consequently deprive them of the fallacious ideaologies they wish to inculcate  the ignorant with....
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Captain Vancouver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Dec 2012 at 06:01
Originally posted by Centrix Redux Centrix Redux wrote:

The Lie That Broke Israel's Back
"The Palestinian territory occupied since 1967" appeared, in one form or another, some dozen times in the U.N. resolution. This whopper of an old lie, told so often and for so long as to merge fantasy with reality, made Israel's defeat at the U.N. a long time coming. One might say that it made Israel's defeat historically inevitable.


"Occupied Palestinian Territory" (OPT) is a thing of smoke and mirrors. Historically, it never happened; legally, there never was Palestinian territory for Israel to occupy. Israel took the territories from Egypt and Jordan in 1967, and there's no getting away from that. So today Israel has more right than Jordan to be occupying the West Bank, and more right than Egypt to be occupying Gaza (if Israel's blockade may be called occupation). "Palestine" never enters the equation. Turn Middle East wars and laws upside-down and any way you like, but if the territories belong to any U.N. member, or quasi-member, they belong to Israel.
 
 
 
 
 
 
For those willing to learn more about how one defeats the Islamist, fascist, terrorist propogandists and their innumerable mouthpieces on forums and blogs...and consequently deprive them of the fallacious ideaologies they wish to inculcate  the ignorant with....
 
 
 
Curious that the above piece comes to us from South Africa, historically a place with some rather extremist views. It reminds me a little of the stuff that used to come from white supremacists in the deep south, or some of today's Tea Party buffoons and rustics. I did get a chuckle though, about the part where the UN is supposed to be inflamming this situation because some UN officials are making a salary by being involved.
 
Nations and various ethnicities come and go, boundaries shift, and some have it much easier than others. Some have found their place, and lived in peace for some time, others are still under the yoke, in one way or another. The fact that one particular piece of real estate hasn't obtained official documents yet does not mean that all and sundry have license to invade, confiscate land, push residents out, and turn them into aliens in their own land. Yes, it is their own land, even without a president and national airline, if residents have lived there for generations, centuries, and this had generally been accepted as a fact and the status quo by those with reasonable intent who have considered the issue. Palestine spent a long time as a colony, like it or not, but still had a "home", if only under colonial authorities. How many other countries are in the same boat? Israel was only a notion, opposed by many in the region, before 1948. Even its post '48 boundaries were obtained only at gunpoint.
 
As for Palestine becoming more nationally minded after the '67 war, I'm not surprised. That's often the way it goes- a certain amount of complacency reigns when things are perhaps undesirable, but not intolerable. A breaking point is reached, and crisis gives birth to new paradigms. History is full of this sort of story. Heck, even mild-mannerd Canada wasn't 100% sovereign until 1931, an effect that came from a constitutional crisis that lead to a new viewpoint. That didn't mean the country was up for grabs before that.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Panther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Dec 2012 at 06:13
Originally posted by Captain Vancouver Captain Vancouver wrote:

 
So what you seem to be saying is that because they hold such a weak position they should shut up and hope for the best? Not a great negociating tactic if you ask me.


Shut up and hope for the best? No, that is not what i am saying. They could've bargained through diplomacy for a far more better position then what they have now. The constant warring and violence didn't work. All it achieved was a circling of the wagons amongst Israel and their allies. The Palestinians have lost much more than they had gained. What have they achieved in the international arena other than contempt and scorn from their opponents for playing the victim card all too often? I can't sympathize with those who play the victim card shamelessly. I can however, admire diplomatic finesse in achieving ends other than war and violence. For the record, i don't feel contempt or scorn for the Palestinians, rather it is a feeling of embarrassment for them.
 
Quote
The anger of Israel and the US at the move comes not from endangering the peace process, but from illustrating their isolation in the world community, and raising the spector of Israel  having to honestly face some inconvienent facts. It undermines the Israeli policy of doing exactly what the above maps suggest- taking all of historical Palestine for themsevles by making the remaining fragments intolerable and unsustainable.
 
Of course Israel can't say this directly, and so must project their angst in another direction, transparent as that might be.


You see Palestinians as victims and i see both sides exhibiting hate, anger, distrust and as far as the Palestinians are concerned a xenophobia unheard of anywhere else in the world other than North Korea. There are no victims here, no winners, just losers.

 The Palestinians have a point on the settlements and the border issue from the 60's. The settlements need to stop. And the Israelis have a point in having a right to exist. This issue revolves around land, power and absolute right rule over other populations. A zero sum game. Nothing more.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Panther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Dec 2012 at 06:32
Originally posted by Al Jassas Al Jassas wrote:

 If the Palestinian bent over (as happened before 1947) 55% of their lands were confiscated by the UN under British supervision and given to the jews. If they negotiated half of the rest was confiscated because of "natural growth" as happened in the years of "peace" (1992-2000). Now when they go to the UN it is their fault and the US, which by the way wholly financed the settlement building during "peace" stood by Israel. Why On God's green earth should the Palestinians listen to anyone?
 
They are f*ked either way and it is better to legalise their status right now than to be forced to accept it de facto.
 
Al-Jassas


I don't see how the Palestinians ever bent over for anyone, no... not in the least. Instead, it has been war and violence every decade, sometimes multiple events during a decade, ever since 1947.  Even before then, there were reported low key violent Zionist attacks directed at the British and their interest in the region. The results of the past century have been a continual negative hardening of positions in the region. This is a no win situation. Only the involvement of the world is keeping either side from committing outright genocide on the other.

To rephrase your point, everyone n the region is f*cked, regardless of where we go from here. Confused
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Centrix Redux Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Dec 2012 at 07:38
Originally posted by Captain Vancouver Captain Vancouver wrote:

Originally posted by Centrix Redux Centrix Redux wrote:

The Lie That Broke Israel's Back
"The Palestinian territory occupied since 1967" appeared, in one form or another, some dozen times in the U.N. resolution. This whopper of an old lie, told so often and for so long as to merge fantasy with reality, made Israel's defeat at the U.N. a long time coming. One might say that it made Israel's defeat historically inevitable.


"Occupied Palestinian Territory" (OPT) is a thing of smoke and mirrors. Historically, it never happened; legally, there never was Palestinian territory for Israel to occupy. Israel took the territories from Egypt and Jordan in 1967, and there's no getting away from that. So today Israel has more right than Jordan to be occupying the West Bank, and more right than Egypt to be occupying Gaza (if Israel's blockade may be called occupation). "Palestine" never enters the equation. Turn Middle East wars and laws upside-down and any way you like, but if the territories belong to any U.N. member, or quasi-member, they belong to Israel.
 
 
 
 
 
 
For those willing to learn more about how one defeats the Islamist, fascist, terrorist propagandists and their innumerable mouthpieces on forums and blogs...and consequently deprive them of the fallacious ideologies they wish to inculcate  the ignorant with....
 
 
 
Curious that the above piece comes to us from South Africa, historically a place with some rather extremist views. It reminds me a little of the stuff that used to come from white supremacists in the deep south, or some of today's Tea Party buffoons and rustics. I did get a chuckle though, about the part where the UN is supposed to be inflaming this situation because some UN officials are making a salary by being involved.
 
Nations and various ethnicities come and go, boundaries shift, and some have it much easier than others. Some have found their place, and lived in peace for some time, others are still under the yoke, in one way or another. The fact that one particular piece of real estate hasn't obtained official documents yet does not mean that all and sundry have license to invade, confiscate land, push residents out, and turn them into aliens in their own land. Yes, it is their own land, even without a president and national airline, if residents have lived there for generations, centuries, and this had generally been accepted as a fact and the status quo by those with reasonable intent who have considered the issue. Palestine spent a long time as a colony, like it or not, but still had a "home", if only under colonial authorities. How many other countries are in the same boat? Israel was only a notion, opposed by many in the region, before 1948. Even its post '48 boundaries were obtained only at gunpoint.
 
As for Palestine becoming more nationally minded after the '67 war, I'm not surprised. That's often the way it goes- a certain amount of complacency reigns when things are perhaps undesirable, but not intolerable. A breaking point is reached, and crisis gives birth to new paradigms. History is full of this sort of story. Heck, even mild-mannered Canada wasn't 100% sovereign until 1931, an effect that came from a constitutional crisis that lead to a new viewpoint. That didn't mean the country was up for grabs before that.
 
Not surprising considering the UN, less a few members, has become the greatest international agency for anti-semitic Jew haters. And aiders and abetters of genocidal rhetoric directed towards the IG in existence. As demonstrated by the numerous gaffees and ongoing support for Islamist, fascist, terrorism.
 
I otoh, when I heard that several terrorists were recently eradicated in the Puntland of Somalia and that the Bosnians recently gave another 18 years was delighted. In fact that was worth a serious guffaw...in approval.
 
 
 
Not a mere pathetic chuckle.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Captain Vancouver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Dec 2012 at 08:31
Originally posted by Panther Panther wrote:

Originally posted by Captain Vancouver Captain Vancouver wrote:

 
So what you seem to be saying is that because they hold such a weak position they should shut up and hope for the best? Not a great negociating tactic if you ask me.


Shut up and hope for the best? No, that is not what i am saying. They could've bargained through diplomacy for a far more better position then what they have now. The constant warring and violence didn't work. All it achieved was a circling of the wagons amongst Israel and their allies. The Palestinians have lost much more than they had gained.

But they have bargained. They bargained at Oslo, and it did them no good. They continued until the ever expanding settlements on the West Bank made that an absurdity. They accepted Israel's right to exist. The current Israeli government now insists that they must accept Israel as an exclusively Jewish state, one that assigns a racial priority. Saudi Arabia proposed a compromise based on the '67 borders, a generous offer to Israel as it still allowed land seized by military force, and it was rejected outright by Israel. They have been bargaining for years, and it has gone nowhere because Israel has no need to concede anything from a position of strength. And they haven't. If Israel was really sincere in its negotiations, then why continue settlement of Arab land? Under the cover of talking, Israel has continued to expand into the historic territory of Palestine. The intent is clear.

Originally posted by Panther Panther wrote:

 What have they achieved in the international arena other than contempt and scorn from their opponents for playing the victim card all too often? I can't sympathize with those who play the victim card shamelessly. I can however, admire diplomatic finesse in achieving ends other than war and violence. For the record, i don't feel contempt or scorn for the Palestinians, rather it is a feeling of embarrassment for them.


The UN vote suggests that there is not all that much scorn out there for Palestine. As for being victims, how would you describe it? Yes, Palestine was run by the Turks but life went on pretty much the same for generations of Palestinians. That all changed when Jews, themselves abused by many in the world community, decide they need a safe place. The argument that they were ascendant in the area thousands of years ago, and so now have rights to ownership, defies logic and common sense. The fact is, many felt a desperate need, and so picked out a spot that looked doable, and made a grab for it. This may have worked out if some sort of agreement with the inhabitants of the country had been worked out, but it was not. The grab for Palestine was understandable, given the events of the 1940s, but still not justifiable. 

 
Originally posted by Panther Panther wrote:


Quote
The anger of Israel and the US at the move comes not from endangering the peace process, but from illustrating their isolation in the world community, and raising the spector of Israel  having to honestly face some inconvienent facts. It undermines the Israeli policy of doing exactly what the above maps suggest- taking all of historical Palestine for themsevles by making the remaining fragments intolerable and unsustainable.
 
Of course Israel can't say this directly, and so must project their angst in another direction, transparent as that might be.


You see Palestinians as victims and i see both sides exhibiting hate, anger, distrust and as far as the Palestinians are concerned a xenophobia unheard of anywhere else in the world other than North Korea. There are no victims here, no winners, just losers.

 The Palestinians have a point on the settlements and the border issue from the 60's. The settlements need to stop. And the Israelis have a point in having a right to exist. This issue revolves around land, power and absolute right rule over other populations. A zero sum game. Nothing more.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Dec 2012 at 18:03
Originally posted by Panther Panther wrote:

Originally posted by Al Jassas Al Jassas wrote:

 If the Palestinian bent over (as happened before 1947) 55% of their lands were confiscated by the UN under British supervision and given to the jews. If they negotiated half of the rest was confiscated because of "natural growth" as happened in the years of "peace" (1992-2000). Now when they go to the UN it is their fault and the US, which by the way wholly financed the settlement building during "peace" stood by Israel. Why On God's green earth should the Palestinians listen to anyone?
 
They are f*ked either way and it is better to legalise their status right now than to be forced to accept it de facto.
 
Al-Jassas


I don't see how the Palestinians ever bent over for anyone, no... not in the least. Instead, it has been war and violence every decade, sometimes multiple events during a decade, ever since 1947.  Even before then, there were reported low key violent Zionist attacks directed at the British and their interest in the region. The results of the past century have been a continual negative hardening of positions in the region. This is a no win situation. Only the involvement of the world is keeping either side from committing outright genocide on the other.

To rephrase your point, everyone n the region is f*cked, regardless of where we go from here. Confused
 
And why should they bend over in the first place?
 
Anyway, my point is that the Palestinians accepted a UN deal in the hopes it would be better than the White Papaer of 1939 which kept Jewish immigration and did not return the millions of Acres of prime agricultural lands especially in the Gallile region back to the people who the British confiscated from and gave for free for Jewish settlers (under the care of Herbert Samuel,the well known zionist and also high commissioner for Palestine).
 
What happened? The UN robbed them blind giving the Jews land they never even demanded before and creating a Palestine that was (at the time) impossible to administer and devoid of direct access to sea.
 
But this was not the catalyst for Palestinian resistance. That was the jewish terrorist organisations (Haganah, Irgun, Lehi, Bar-Giora etc.) that appeared in 1907 were untill the end of WWII the darlings of nutjob evangelical racists like Orde Wingate or Zionist freaks like Churchill and Lloyd-George. Those terrorists killed thousands of Palestinians in those years especially during WWI (remember that they were Ottoman subjects whom the Ottomans out of the goodness of their hearts brought from the pogroms of Russia and gave them money and government land to live off but they sided with the Brits anyway) and the 30s (Wingate's infamous death squads) before the Arab revolt even began.
 
After WWII the organised ethnic cleansing began under official British silence and reached its climax in the 5 months between the 30/11/47 UN vote and the 15/5/48 declaration of the state of Israel. During those months (actually before that) 100s of thousands of Palestinians were cleansed from what is now contingious Israel. In fact according to the UN report on January 48 +70k Palestinians were forced out including thousands from lands allocated to the supposed future state of Palestine. That is basically saying Israel began the war not the Palestinians.
 
Why did the Arabs intervene after 15/5/48?
 
Well lets see. On the Jewish side you have the highly regimented Haganah, unofficially trained by the British and numbering 50k members in 1939 not to mention the 10s of thousands who joined from the Jewish Brigade and other allied units that fought in WWII. With the rest of the terrorist jewish organisations the IDF had well over 150k men under arms, a navy and an air force that was bigger and more modern than all Arab air forces put together.
 
The Palestinians, nothing. They were barred from the Arab Legion, barred from joining the British army, very limited in joining the Palestine police force and banned from forming militias like the Jews. Carrying weapons, except for bedouins, was an offense (in Wingate's book a capital crime). Only 15-20k untrained volunteers commanded by former Ottoman army officers and some volunteers from the newly independent Syria and Lebanon. With an active total ethnic cleansing policy of all Palestinian in all Palestine (which meant forcing 1.4 million people out of their homes) and occupying lands not allocated to them (Israel did not recognised the Palestinian part of the partition plan) Arab countries had to intervene to help the Palestinians because neither Stalin nor Truman were in a mood to stop the Jews and in fact weapon giveaways by both men to the Haganah proves the contrary. 
 
Al-Jassas
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Dec 2012 at 10:45

The moral of the story for Israel will be that you reap what you sow.  Shame the shortsighted psychopaths in the US and Israel can't see the truth of that simple maxim.  Instead they try to project their own evils on their perceived enemies and fool a mass of gullible muppets with it. 

"There was glory in pissing, Corabb decided as he watched the stream curve out and make that familiar but unique sound as it hit the ground." So true.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Centrix Redux Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jan 2013 at 10:26
Originally posted by Zagros Zagros wrote:

The moral of the story for Israel will be that you reap what you sow.  Shame the shortsighted psychopaths in the US and Israel can't see the truth of that simple maxim.  Instead they try to project their own evils on their perceived enemies and fool a mass of gullible muppets with it. 

 
Exactly.
 
 
The moral of the story remains in the psychopathic and delusional support rendered by the mouthpiece of the Hamas terrorist group which leads in Gaza. And the adherents of the same there.
 
More armed drone strikes throughout this year and next will reduce the latter.
 
 
 
As for the former?
 
 
 
Repudiation of their lies, anti-nationalistic jingoism (a violation here that will, as usual, go unchecked by staff and owners on WH) distortions, anti-semitic and Americanism and pro-Islamist terrorism support remain revealed, as their agenda for all to see will suffice..Wink
 
 
Lets start that New Year right eh.
 
 
Can we expect a fair an balanced enforcement of the coc. Or will I simply be censured? Doubtful as to the first...as to the second? We shall see.
 
 
Better bet is to adhere to the party line here; of sycophant pro-Palestinian Hamas terrorist supporter...then all is well.LOL
 
 
 


Edited by Centrix Redux - 01 Jan 2013 at 10:27
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jan 2013 at 22:33
Centrix's last post has been hidden pending moderator review.
 
Please remember to remain civil and not attack the person.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Ribbaud Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 2013 at 18:30
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim Omar al Hashim wrote:

Centrix's last post has been hidden pending moderator review.
 
Please remember to remain civil and not attack the person.


Given it was posted during the New Year, he was probably drunk when he wrote it. LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jan 2013 at 00:15
Why not let us see it? Hiding/censoring posts is wrong. If you want to redact profanity then sure but don't hide posts and cover for a nut job.

Edited by Zagros - 15 Jan 2013 at 00:17
"There was glory in pissing, Corabb decided as he watched the stream curve out and make that familiar but unique sound as it hit the ground." So true.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jan 2013 at 01:29
Originally posted by Ribbaud Ribbaud wrote:

Originally posted by Omar al Hashim Omar al Hashim wrote:

Centrix's last post has been hidden pending moderator review.
 
Please remember to remain civil and not attack the person.


Given it was posted during the New Year, he was probably drunk when he wrote it. LOL
 
One of the most fun things about being a staff member for so long is estimating whether or not a given member is drunk when they posted something Smile
 
There are some here who would post in that way regardless of whether it is the New Year period.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ribbaud Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jan 2013 at 08:30
Originally posted by Constantine XI Constantine XI wrote:

Originally posted by Ribbaud Ribbaud wrote:

Originally posted by Omar al Hashim Omar al Hashim wrote:

Centrix's last post has been hidden pending moderator review.
 
Please remember to remain civil and not attack the person.


Given it was posted during the New Year, he was probably drunk when he wrote it. LOL
 
One of the most fun things about being a staff member for so long is estimating whether or not a given member is drunk when they posted something Smile
 
There are some here who would post in that way regardless of whether it is the New Year period.


As a newbie, judging from other posts in the thread, I get the impression of an agenda driven  polemicist with very little actual knowledge of world events, just making noise for the sake of it.  One to ignore, I think. Wink
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