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Palestine new U.N Status

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jan 2013 at 13:04
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-21174543

Palestinians threaten to take Israel to ICCover settlements planned for East Jerusalem.  If it wasn't already, now it's obvious why the Israelis didn't want Palestinian recognition at the UN.   Now they have legal rights.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ribbaud Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Feb 2013 at 17:43
I found this funny, "US ambassador Susan Rice emphasised that UN references to the State of Palestine, such as the title on the Security Council name plate, was not "bestowing Palestinian 'statehood' or recognition""

The only countryies in the world that haven't recognised Palestine are America, Israel and a few islands in the Pacific. LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote josh1701 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Apr 2013 at 23:12
If we're seriously talking about "original" boarders, than to which are you referring to? why stop at '67? why not go to '48? or '47? or we can go back even further. When studying the extent of Jewish sovereignty in the region one might have a different view of what 'original' boarders are.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Apr 2013 at 19:19
Weren't the originals boarders from Ur? And imore mportant to this argument is surely the ethniicity of the people there when Abram came along with his family

Edited by gcle2003 - 11 Apr 2013 at 19:20
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Apr 2013 at 17:56
Originally posted by josh1701 josh1701 wrote:

If we're seriously talking about "original" boarders, than to which are you referring to? why stop at '67? why not go to '48? or '47? or we can go back even further. When studying the extent of Jewish sovereignty in the region one might have a different view of what 'original' boarders are.



I don't think those borders are recognised within any legal framework which is the basis of all civilised political debate. So unfortunately for you, these are all we have to go on.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Woofer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Sep 2013 at 09:28
Speaking from an Objective point of view the only thing I can put into the mix is my dismay at the utter incompetency of the Palestinian leadership. They never fail to fail to make the right allies and the right decisions. They allied themselves with the Warsaw Pact during the cold war, the allied themselves With Saddam Hussein. They alienated many liberals with attacks on civilians. They alienated many Americans by cheering at 9/11.

Whatever you views on who is right and wrong ( and I see two sides to this) I can't see how anyone can see anything worth celebrating in the useless strategy and tactics of the PLO or Hamas. Israel is winning. It is 'boiling the frog''knowing that the policy of taking a percentage or two of Palestinian territory ever year no longer produces news...its just more of the same.  And yet the policy never changes. It has armed actions that acheive very little and progressively alienates its potential allies.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paradigm of Humanity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Sep 2013 at 11:17
Originally posted by Woofer Woofer wrote:

Speaking from an Objective point of view the only thing I can put into the mix is my dismay at the utter incompetency of the Palestinian leadership. They never fail to fail to make the right allies and the right decisions. They allied themselves with the Warsaw Pact during the cold war, the allied themselves With Saddam Hussein. They alienated many liberals with attacks on civilians. They alienated many Americans by cheering at 9/11.

Whatever you views on who is right and wrong ( and I see two sides to this) I can't see how anyone can see anything worth celebrating in the useless strategy and tactics of the PLO or Hamas. Israel is winning. It is 'boiling the frog''knowing that the policy of taking a percentage or two of Palestinian territory ever year no longer produces news...its just more of the same.  And yet the policy never changes. It has armed actions that acheive very little and progressively alienates its potential allies.

All you have said is true but it doesn't saves you from victim blaming.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Woofer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Sep 2013 at 12:52
Originally posted by Paradigm of Humanity Paradigm of Humanity wrote:

Originally posted by Woofer Woofer wrote:

Speaking from an Objective point of view the only thing I can put into the mix is my dismay at the utter incompetency of the Palestinian leadership. They never fail to fail to make the right allies and the right decisions. They allied themselves with the Warsaw Pact during the cold war, the allied themselves With Saddam Hussein. They alienated many liberals with attacks on civilians. They alienated many Americans by cheering at 9/11.

Whatever you views on who is right and wrong ( and I see two sides to this) I can't see how anyone can see anything worth celebrating in the useless strategy and tactics of the PLO or Hamas. Israel is winning. It is 'boiling the frog''knowing that the policy of taking a percentage or two of Palestinian territory ever year no longer produces news...its just more of the same.  And yet the policy never changes. It has armed actions that acheive very little and progressively alienates its potential allies.

All you have said is true but it doesn't saves you from victim blaming.


WHAT DO YOU MEAN 'saves me'?

I don;t think the Palestinian leadership are victims at all. They have generally been corrupt ideologues who  didn't want to step off the gravy train and managed to convince the ordinary Palestinian that they were working for them.

Even if the were victims then I still see no reason why that makes them immune from criticism.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Challenger2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 May 2014 at 13:50
Originally posted by Woofer Woofer wrote:

Speaking from an Objective point of view the only thing I can put into the mix is my dismay at the utter incompetency of the Palestinian leadership. They never fail to fail to make the right allies and the right decisions. They allied themselves with the Warsaw Pact during the cold war, the allied themselves With Saddam Hussein. They alienated many liberals with attacks on civilians. They alienated many Americans by cheering at 9/11.

Whatever you views on who is right and wrong ( and I see two sides to this) I can't see how anyone can see anything worth celebrating in the useless strategy and tactics of the PLO or Hamas. Israel is winning. It is 'boiling the frog''knowing that the policy of taking a percentage or two of Palestinian territory ever year no longer produces news...its just more of the same.  And yet the policy never changes. It has armed actions that acheive very little and progressively alienates its potential allies.


Hardly an objective view, but with some elements of truth. Palestinian leadership has always been naive to some extent. Palestinian leadership has all too often put their case to and trusted in, the mechanisms of international law and natural justice. It took a while, and several betrayals, for them to realise such mechanisms are fundamentally powerless in the face of Imperialist and Superpower politics. As a result, they have been forced to go in directions they are naturally ideologically opposed to, much like the saying goes, "the enemy of my enemy is my friend".


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 May 2014 at 02:38
Hamas, imo, should be forcibly disbanded, and then the two national leaders locked in a room until they have arrived at an agreement on what should happen with the Palestinian land claims.

It would be far better if both could live side by side in harmony-and it is possible.

The application of a new UN status is all very well, but does it really achieve anything?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Captain Vancouver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 May 2014 at 02:56
In a couple of the odd twists of irony that will continually present themselves to readers of history:

1) The west insists on democratic institutions in places like Palestine, and in the case of the Gaza strip they got their way. Elections were held, and Hamas won....oh,oh...that's democracy yes, but the wrong people won the election, so then it was time for sanctions and isolation. Vote yes, but vote for the right people, for god's sake. It's like if there was an election in the US, and Ralph Nader won. The Kock brothers, or someone along those lines would have to step in, and read the riot act.

2) Terrorists? You bet they are. Take any population, stuff them into a giant prison for three generations, brutalize them with military operations, and deny them a political voice, and what do you think will be the result of this sociological experiment? Young men that are willing, and in fact do, act out in very violent and dysfunctional ways. Anybody surprised? Well, you shouldn't  be. There are lots of precedents. One of the prime ones in this case is the Stern Gang, a Jewish terrorist organization, that killed thousands of innocent people around the time of the birth of Israel. When they were the underdogs, they behaved in desperate, violent, deadly ways. Now they are on top, they have decided to elevate hypocrisy to an art form, and maintain it was OK for them, not OK for the lessor races, who now feel similarly threatened.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Captain Vancouver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 May 2014 at 03:17
By the way, here is the extent of Israeli control of US politics, a phenomenon that is now close to the realm of science fiction:

http://www.straight.com/news/636626/gwynne-dyer-essence-apartheid-israel
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 May 2014 at 06:00
Captain:

And one of the more rediculous  situations is that many Palestinians cross the "border" daily to work in Israel.

I believe that the people of Palestine are entitled to "self determination", and that perhaps, if any political party other than Hamas was in power, it could possibly be achieved.

My view is that the Jews, displaced for centuries were entitled to have their homeland back, and it should not have happened after going to war against Britain. It should have been all sorted out back in 1947.

At the same time, the Palestinian people were entitled to occupy a land that they had lived in for centuries.

These age old rivalries have no place in 21st Century society, and they need to be sorted out, amicably, now!

As for US hypocracy, when was it ever any different?



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Challenger2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 May 2014 at 11:48
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Hamas, imo, should be forcibly disbanded, and then the two national leaders locked in a room until they have arrived at an agreement on what should happen with the Palestinian land claims.

It would be far better if both could live side by side in harmony-and it is possible.

The application of a new UN status is all very well, but does it really achieve anything?




Hopelessly idealistic. There is a persistant rumour that Hamas was originally created by the Zionists to fracture and sabotage the PLO and Fatah. Once created, Hamas went it's own way, a bit like a Zionist Frankenstein's monster.  If this is true, all that would happen  is that the Zionists would create a more extreme faction and the cycle would start again.

Currently Fatah and Hamas are trying a reconciliation process to form a unity government. It might be interesting to see if this succeeds who the next "terrorist" group becomes Israel's bete-noir; the PFLP, Tanzim, Al-aqsa martyrs, DFLP, PIJ? Or some new Wahabist nut-job group that currently only exists in Mossad's imagination. 

The new U.N. status is a step in the right direction, but only one step.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Challenger2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 May 2014 at 11:56
Originally posted by Captain Vancouver Captain Vancouver wrote:

By the way, here is the extent of Israeli control of US politics, a phenomenon that is now close to the realm of science fiction:

http://www.straight.com/news/636626/gwynne-dyer-essence-apartheid-israel


The situation was exactly the same in Truman's time, but it's now become a well oiled, highly organised machine that makes or breaks U.S. politicians and officials. Basically the American voter is largely irrelevant when it comes to who governs the USA.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Challenger2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 May 2014 at 12:13
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

...I believe that the people of Palestine are entitled to "self determination", and that perhaps, if any political party other than Hamas was in power, it could possibly be achieved.


You'd have to add, "any political party other than Hamas or any Zionist political party in Israel..."

Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:


My view is that the Jews, displaced for centuries were entitled to have their homeland back, and it should not have happened after going to war against Britain. It should have been all sorted out back in 1947.

You are of course entitled to your view, however misguided. What makes you think, a) That the Zionist colonizers of modern Israel/Palestine were ever related to the inhabitants of the ancient Levant (or whatever name you want to give the region) or that these inhabitants were ever dispersed/displaced? b) Historically Jews ever thought of themselves as a "people"? Judaism, after all is a religion, not an ethicity.

As for 1947, it should have been sorted out in 1919!

Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:


At the same time, the Palestinian people were entitled to occupy a land that they had lived in for centuries.

Correct.

Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:


These age old rivalries have no place in 21st Century society, and they need to be sorted out, amicably, now!


I think that the all the Imperialist powers have a lot to answer for regarding their mistakes, and ironically so does the USA for compounding and exacerbating them so that they still exist and fester in the 21st century.

Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

As for US hypocracy, when was it ever any different?


Umm...before 26th September 1919?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 May 2014 at 12:49
Originally posted by Challenger2 Challenger2 wrote:

Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Hamas, imo, should be forcibly disbanded, and then the two national leaders locked in a room until they have arrived at an agreement on what should happen with the Palestinian land claims.

It would be far better if both could live side by side in harmony-and it is possible.

The application of a new UN status is all very well, but does it really achieve anything?




Hopelessly idealistic. There is a persistant rumour that Hamas was originally created by the Zionists to fracture and sabotage the PLO and Fatah. Once created, Hamas went it's own way, a bit like a Zionist Frankenstein's monster.  If this is true, all that would happen  is that the Zionists would create a more extreme faction and the cycle would start again.

Currently Fatah and Hamas are trying a reconciliation process to form a unity government. It might be interesting to see if this succeeds who the next "terrorist" group becomes Israel's bete-noir; the PFLP, Tanzim, Al-aqsa martyrs, DFLP, PIJ? Or some new Wahabist nut-job group that currently only exists in Mossad's imagination. 

The new U.N. status is a step in the right direction, but only one step.

Yeah, I know, but one can dream.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Captain Vancouver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 May 2014 at 16:33
Attitudes towards Israel varied somewhat in the past. The US was reluctant to take on Jewish refugees for a time before WW2. The Truman administration supported an independent Jewish state, but then Eisenhower was put off by the Suez attack in '56, and told Israel to get out of Egypt in no uncertain terms. The all out tilt started with Nixon and Kissinger, and for some reason has continued ever since. No politician of any importance has been allowed through the halls of power without first going down on their knees to the image of Israel. Corruption probably explains some of this, but it is still a bizarre spectacle seeing one US luminary after another wearing out the knees of their pants.

The Jewish rush to statehood is, as you say of course Challenger, a modern phenomenon. If all ethnic or national groups decided they wanted to migrate to areas supposedly occupied in the past by their fellows, we would soon have the entire planet playing a game of musical chairs. The real push for statehood came with the Holocaust, when the rage and despair of survivors, understandably, urged some sort of political solution and settlement. The problem is, the target destination was not theirs in any sort of legal or pragmatic sense, and those in the region have never accepted the outcome. It is a classic case of two wrongs not making a right.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 May 2014 at 03:21
Captain:

I know my position is "a best case scenario", with compromise being needed on both sides, and that it's probably wishful thinking, nevertheless, this sore has been festering for far too long, imo, and deserves to be concluded.

So how do you see the situation being resolved?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Challenger2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 May 2014 at 18:07
Originally posted by Captain Vancouver Captain Vancouver wrote:

Attitudes towards Israel varied somewhat in the past. The US was reluctant to take on Jewish refugees for a time before WW2. The Truman administration supported an independent Jewish state, but then Eisenhower was put off by the Suez attack in '56, and told Israel to get out of Egypt in no uncertain terms. The all out tilt started with Nixon and Kissinger, and for some reason has continued ever since. No politician of any importance has been allowed through the halls of power without first going down on their knees to the image of Israel. Corruption probably explains some of this, but it is still a bizarre spectacle seeing one US luminary after another wearing out the knees of their pants.


If you are interested, this is how it works. Demographically 76% Jewish Americans are concentrated in 16 cities of 6 states:
New York (29 electoral votes)
California (55 electoral votes)
Pennsylvania (20 electoral votes)
Illinois (20 electoral votes)
Ohio (18 electoral votes)
Florida (29 electoral votes)
Total:  171 electoral votes.

As you are probably well aware it takes 270 electoral votes to elect a President of the U.S. by a plurality votes by an Electoral College, not by the popular vote. Under this system the votes of a state go as a unit to the candidate winning a plurality of voters. This gives any well-organised lobby a powerful bargaining position, as in tightly contested states 500 votes here or there can gain the entire state's electoral votes, you effectively don't need huge numbers of voters to get elected, just enough to give you that 1 extra vote.

A study made in the 1970's reckoned that candidates running for the White House needed campaign funds in excess of $50 million, those running for the Senate about $15 million and those running for the House of Representatives about $10 million. In those days official U.S. statistics showed that Jewish Americans were about 3% or less of the total population of the U.S. but were contributing nearly 50% of campaign funds. Nowdays accurate figures are impossible to find as campaign contributions by the "Jewish Lobby" are hidden using  fronts like Political Action Committees.


Edited by Challenger2 - 03 May 2014 at 18:11
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Captain Vancouver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 May 2014 at 18:23
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Captain:

I know my position is "a best case scenario", with compromise being needed on both sides, and that it's probably wishful thinking, nevertheless, this sore has been festering for far too long, imo, and deserves to be concluded.

So how do you see the situation being resolved?

A resolution will only come through a decision on the part of Israel to negotiate in good faith; to acknowledge past excesses and to be prepared to make some sacrifices of land. This would have to be a sincere offer, not something along the lines of the absurd notion of quasi-sovereign Arab Bantustans embedded in a Jewish master state that have been on the table to date. More like a 50/50 split, with a fair distribution of resources, and aid from involved states in order to get Palestine up and running. If this were to occur, I think the  Arab League, the EU, and other major players would get behind the plan.

Will it occur? Almost certainly not. Israel is riding high right now, with nuclear forces that are on a par with France or the UK, a significant arms industry, opponents who are in disarray if not chaos, and not least, with the unconditional backing of the US, come what may. They see no need to give an inch, and so they are not. In fact, they are taking inches- ever more of the former Palestine, week by week.

The unsettling thing here is that, as readers of history, I think we all know that nothing stays the same forever. Trend lines curve this way and that, making sharp bends that appear in newspaper headlines. Some trends that Israel would be wise to pay more attention to are:

1) The radicalization of the country. Some of the best and brightest are leaving the country, and those with extreme religious belief are gaining in political power.

2) The Arab birth rate exceeds that of Jews, and so they are becoming a minority within the traditional boundaries of Palestine.

3) Nuclear weapons are almost sure to spread to the Middle East. Iran is almost there, Pakistan is rumored to have made offers to supply  Saudi Arabia with technology and/or weapons. Once the ball gets rolling, all will want protection. In a nuclear Middle East, Israel's position would weaken considerably.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 May 2014 at 04:56
Originally posted by Challenger2 Challenger2 wrote:

Originally posted by Captain Vancouver Captain Vancouver wrote:

Attitudes towards Israel varied somewhat in the past. The US was reluctant to take on Jewish refugees for a time before WW2. The Truman administration supported an independent Jewish state, but then Eisenhower was put off by the Suez attack in '56, and told Israel to get out of Egypt in no uncertain terms. The all out tilt started with Nixon and Kissinger, and for some reason has continued ever since. No politician of any importance has been allowed through the halls of power without first going down on their knees to the image of Israel. Corruption probably explains some of this, but it is still a bizarre spectacle seeing one US luminary after another wearing out the knees of their pants.


If you are interested, this is how it works. Demographically 76% Jewish Americans are concentrated in 16 cities of 6 states:
New York (29 electoral votes)
California (55 electoral votes)
Pennsylvania (20 electoral votes)
Illinois (20 electoral votes)
Ohio (18 electoral votes)
Florida (29 electoral votes)
Total:  171 electoral votes.

As you are probably well aware it takes 270 electoral votes to elect a President of the U.S. by a plurality votes by an Electoral College, not by the popular vote. Under this system the votes of a state go as a unit to the candidate winning a plurality of voters. This gives any well-organised lobby a powerful bargaining position, as in tightly contested states 500 votes here or there can gain the entire state's electoral votes, you effectively don't need huge numbers of voters to get elected, just enough to give you that 1 extra vote.

A study made in the 1970's reckoned that candidates running for the White House needed campaign funds in excess of $50 million, those running for the Senate about $15 million and those running for the House of Representatives about $10 million. In those days official U.S. statistics showed that Jewish Americans were about 3% or less of the total population of the U.S. but were contributing nearly 50% of campaign funds. Nowdays accurate figures are impossible to find as campaign contributions by the "Jewish Lobby" are hidden using  fronts like Political Action Committees.

I agree, and as I've said before, he who pays the piper calls the tune. The "money men" get to control US policy.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 2014 at 03:50
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Great news. Israel should be forced to behave like a civilized country, at last. In any case, Palestinians should also make an effort to get rid of extremists. 
 
I have to agree with Pinguin here.
 
It's a crying shame that so many innocents are being killed or injured as the result of rocket attacks by both sides.
 
I believe that, firstly HAMAS must either be eradicated in Palestine so that moderates can broker a sustainable peace deal with Israel, and secondly Israel needs to be a bit more flexible with it's border policies. The silly thing is that Palestinians cross the border daily to work in Israel.
 
There is certainly room for both the Palestinians and the Israelis to live side by side in harmony, and I get the feeling that it could happen-if the right wings of both sides were more moderate.
 
This conflict has gone on along for far too long-being fed by the US and by radical Islamists.
 
END IT NOW!!
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Captain Vancouver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 2014 at 04:45
It could end tomorrow, but it is not likely to. All that would need happen is for the US to say, make a deal, or no more subsidy. The Arab world has come out with a moderate peace plan that allows for all sides to feel some justice. It has been rejected by Israel. They want the whole of Palestine, and given their strategic position currently, feel they can have it.

Any society pushed as far as Gaza has been is sure to become radicalized. If Australians or Canadians had been living in an open air prison for there generations, short of basic supplies and employment, periodically bombed and shot up by the "prison guards", how radical do you think the younger folks would be?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eetion Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 2014 at 06:08
Jerusalem Law-United Jewish Jerusalem
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerusalem_Law

with this law, nobody make me think that Israel really cares about peace.

The last peace agreement has alread born dead
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/04/29/us-palestinian-israel-settlements-idUSBREA3S0I120140429

and I really don't get it
How does someone still think that first move should come from Hamas?


 


Edited by Eetion - 22 Jul 2014 at 06:09
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 2014 at 07:11
Originally posted by Eetion Eetion wrote:

Jerusalem Law-United Jewish Jerusalem
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerusalem_Law

with this law, nobody make me think that Israel really cares about peace.

The last peace agreement has alread born dead
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/04/29/us-palestinian-israel-settlements-idUSBREA3S0I120140429

and I really don't get it
How does someone still think that first move should come from Hamas?
 
 
I don't really disagree with you here.
 
It's my belief that, more often than not, Hamas instigates these attacks by firing rockets into Israel. I admit that I could be wrong, but Hamas is a recognised terrorist organisation.
 
As I've said before, in other threads, it would be appropriate if the Middle East countries could all sit down and negotiate the redrawing of national borders, in a fair and decent manner.
 
Fat chance I suppose.Smile
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eetion Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 2014 at 10:43
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

 
It's my belief that, more often than not, Hamas instigates these attacks by firing rockets into Israel. I admit that I could be wrong, but Hamas is a recognised terrorist organisation.


I get over these things when I realize that PKK, ETA and IRA are just result facist state acts.
 

EX-IRA LEADER AND THE QUEEN
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 2014 at 15:54
Originally posted by Eetion Eetion wrote:

Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

 
It's my belief that, more often than not, Hamas instigates these attacks by firing rockets into Israel. I admit that I could be wrong, but Hamas is a recognised terrorist organisation.


I get over these things when I realize that PKK, ETA and IRA are just result facist state acts.
 

EX-IRA LEADER AND THE QUEEN
 
Again, I find myself agreeing with you, to at least a certain extent. I'd never call the British Government fascist, but it has stubbornly held on to Northern Ireland for nearly a thousand years, and against both political and armed protest. It could easily end the violence by allowing the return of the six counties to the Irish Republic.
 
As for Spain and the other countries, I don't know enough about their internal politics to comment, except to say that in the past Spain definately did have a fascist government.
 
Getting back to my statement about HAMAS, every time we hear about an escalation of the violence between Jews and Palestinians, it seems to be initiated by HAMAS, but I could never say for certain.
 
 


Edited by toyomotor - 22 Jul 2014 at 16:08
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Arlington Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 2014 at 17:03
''Getting back to my statement about HAMAS, every time we hear about an escalation of the violence between Jews and Palestinians, it seems to be initiated by HAMAS, but I could never say for certain.''




**And you would not be incorrect.

But the real truth as expressed in the following article is equally correct.

The problem lies in the existence of interference/support/support states for/to Hamas, whose agendas (identical to Hamas) includes a total eradication and genocidal removal of the state/people of Israel.

One primary name suffices: Iran. Which in turn is supported overtly or covertly by the Russians and others, who seek to diminish the power of the Western democracies and in particular the capitalist US. They have already successfully cowed the so called European and Canadian 'social democrats'.

Viz. the aforementioned economic relationships and dependencies. And fears and unwillingness to counter Islamist immigrant unrest. In this case; the familiar and general anti Semitism, still present in Europe, has been augmented by appeasement to the same Islamists. Both to radical terrorists and so called 'conventional and more moderate' or secular ones.

Which itself is a lie. There is no such thing as an absence of hostile, anti-Semitic, Islamists. Who either support terror through direct violence or silence. For they do. The Euros know this but do very little to contain it.

The end will not come with a two state solution; as long as Hamas and it's brother terror groups and state sponsors exist.

The end will not come until Arab/Persian-Islamist, extremists and their terror state sponsors are replaced with those willing to accept Israeli national identification and sovereignty. And accept universal identification of human-civil rights which include minority theological.

So...in short... it will not end.





''Why Israel and Hamas need each other''

..''The Israeli-Hamas bond goes back to the very inception of the Palestinian Islamist organization. Israel didn't create Hamas in 1987, but in an effort to counter the more secular Fatah and Palestine Liberation Organization in the 1970s, it gave a variety of Islamist groups political space and leeway. It even granted an operating license for an organization created by Hamas' founder, Ahmed Yassin. Paradoxically, Hamas' very reason for being depended on the existence of Israel — even though its main aim was to destroy it.''


''..One way to look at this is as a Middle Eastern form of mutually assured destruction. Hamas cannot destroy Israel, and Israel knows that it cannot reoccupy Gaza and eradicate the Islamist organization at a cost that it is willing to bear. So each actor uses the other for its own purposes.''


''..The problem posed by Hamas is not just a piece of propaganda by the Israeli right. The fact is that the absence of a monopoly over the organized use of violence in the Palestinian territories poses a legitimate threat to a two-state solution. What Israeli is going to make existential concessions to Mahmoud Abbas — a Palestinian leader who lacks the power to silence all the guns and rockets of Palestine?''

''..Finally, Hamas — particularly its military wing — also thrives on the existence of Israel. Hamas' very legitimacy is derived from an ideology and strategy steeped in confrontation and resistance. However self-destructive the ideology may be, the movement represents to many Palestinians an effort to preserve their national identity and to resist Israel and its ongoing occupation. Abbas has his peace process — or what's left of it — and his international campaign to drum up recognition of Palestinian statehood. Hamas has its resistance. It's in the nature of its very reason for being.''


http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/commentary/ct-mideast-hamas-israel-struggle-abbas-oped-0722-20140722,0,3940290.story






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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eetion Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 2014 at 17:36
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

 
it seems to be initiated by HAMAS



I have counted my objections. If you still extend your lands in to Palestinains even during the Peace talk, how does the Hamas be aggresive side?

In human relations
planting  the wind, means harvesting the whirlwind.


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