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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Captain Vancouver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 2014 at 18:02
There is not much point in having a chicken and egg argument about who was first without context.

We could look at an act of the French resistance during WW2 for example, and say, hey, they just shot three soldiers! Terrorists! But what led up to such an incident? What was the history behind it?

There are reasons why things are as the are in the Mid-East, and they need to be examined.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Arlington Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jul 2014 at 01:29
''US media is reporting today, what Taitz already reported couple of days ago, Obama to transfer 2.8 billion to Iran''

''The United States will give Iran access to another $2.8 billion over the next several months and appears to have conceded to Iran’s demand that it be permitted to domestically enrich uranium, the key component in a nuclear weapon, according to senior Obama administration officials.

In exchange for agreeing over the weekend to extend nuclear talks until late November, Iran will be given another $2.8 billion in unfrozen assets, the White House told reporters over the weekend, after President Barack Obama decided to extend the talks past their July 20 deadline.

The United States already returned to Iran $4.2 billion in unfrozen oil assets during the past six months of the interim nuclear deal and has now agreed to provide another $2.8 billion in exchange for an extension in the negotiations.

White House officials also appeared to..''


http://www.redflagnews.com/headlines/obama-regime-to-give-iran-the-enemy-another-28-billion




Translated this means: that the US and the Obama administration; now supports Hamas terrorism and continues to abandon it's long term alliance with Israel. As these bribery funds continue to not only appease Iran. But funds their ongoing development of nucs and delivery systems. As well as fund Hamas viz their Iranian masters.


That no dissimulation by the so called 'social democrats' and terrorist-pro palestinian supporters can refute. Though they will attempt it.

These funds and those given by the UN and US in support of Hamas will enable continuation of the goal of the destruction and genocidal elimination of Israel.

And those who deny that Hamas is funded remain dupes and intellectual liars and frauds. As Hamas, as a part of the government in Gaza, is calling the shots.

Rockets and mortar rounds recently found in a UN Aid facility, vacant or other, again, prove that all their rhetoric aside..that the same so called 'social democratic' rhetoric; remains nothing more than merde.

And ongoing evidence of their closet sympathies in support of fanatic Islamist terrorism. As demonstrated by their piteous defense of the Hamas terrorists, under the guise of pro palestinians defenders and their pathetic support of Obama.





''UNRWA Admits Finding More Rockets Hidden in Gaza School; Second Time in a Week ''


''In the second case in a week, the UN Agency responsible for Palestinians admitted that its staff had discovered rockets hidden in their schools in the Gaza Strip.

“Today, in the course of the regular inspection of its premises, UNRWA (the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East), discovered rockets hidden in a vacant school in the Gaza Strip,” the agency said in a statement Tuesday evening.''


http://www.algemeiner.com/2014/07/22/unrwa-admits-finding-more-rockets-hidden-in-gaza-school-second-time-in-a-week/



Edited by Arlington - 23 Jul 2014 at 01:31
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jul 2014 at 02:46
Originally posted by Eetion Eetion wrote:

Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

 
it seems to be initiated by HAMAS



I have counted my objections. If you still extend your lands in to Palestinains even during the Peace talk, how does the Hamas be aggresive side?

In human relations planting  the wind, means harvesting the whirlwind.

 
"As ye sow, so shall ye reap".
 
As I wrote earlier, it seems to me that HAMAS lies dormant for a while and then starts rocket attacks on Israel, which retaliates.
 
If Israel didn't retaliate, HAMAS loses it's raison d'etre-it's reason for being, but that's not going to happen, Israel will retaliate every time, and every time HAMAS attacks Israel, innocent civilians, on both sides, suffer.
 
This has been going on for far too long, there must be and end to it.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Arlington Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jul 2014 at 02:57


''The prophet, prayer and peace be upon him, said: The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him! This will not apply to the Gharqad, which is a Jewish tree (cited by Bukhari and Muslim).''

Article Seven Hamas Charter 1988.





''....There is no solution to the Palestinian problem except by Jihad. The initiatives, proposals and International Conferences are but a waste of time, an exercise in futility.''

Article 17 Hamas Charter of 1988.


Now agreed with by the Obama administration.

Evidence?


Bribery payments to the Iranians and their proxy Hamas.
Weak and indecisive policy directed towards other supporters of Iran(Russia) and viz them to Hamas and Islamist totalitarianism in Syria.

And the failure to act aggressively against Islamist fanatic persecution of Christians by ISIS in Iraq and elsewhere.

Well done social democrats.. ntl your continued support of the terrorists and now their Proxy, the Obama administration,is still revealed
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jul 2014 at 06:10
Qur'an (5:51) - "O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people."
 
 
Hardly the basis for lasting peace, is it?
 
Qur'an (5:80) - "You will see many of them befriending those who disbelieve; certainly evil is that which their souls have sent before for them, that Allah became displeased with them and in chastisement shall they abide." Those Muslims who befriend unbelievers will abide in hell.
 


Edited by toyomotor - 23 Jul 2014 at 06:25
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Captain Vancouver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jul 2014 at 18:16
Originally posted by Arlington Arlington wrote:

''US media is reporting today, what Taitz already reported couple of days ago, Obama to transfer 2.8 billion to Iran''

''The United States will give Iran access to another $2.8 billion over the next several months and appears to have conceded to Iran’s demand that it be permitted to domestically enrich uranium, the key component in a nuclear weapon, according to senior Obama administration officials.

In exchange for agreeing over the weekend to extend nuclear talks until late November, Iran will be given another $2.8 billion in unfrozen assets, the White House told reporters over the weekend, after President Barack Obama decided to extend the talks past their July 20 deadline.

The United States already returned to Iran $4.2 billion in unfrozen oil assets during the past six months of the interim nuclear deal and has now agreed to provide another $2.8 billion in exchange for an extension in the negotiations.

White House officials also appeared to..''


http://www.redflagnews.com/headlines/obama-regime-to-give-iran-the-enemy-another-28-billion




Translated this means: that the US and the Obama administration; now supports Hamas terrorism and continues to abandon it's long term alliance with Israel. As these bribery funds continue to not only appease Iran. But funds their ongoing development of nucs and delivery systems. As well as fund Hamas viz their Iranian masters.

I checked out your red flag site. The lead story when I was there was: "Obama Caught in Gay Sex Act; Female Witness Murdered". This example will give readers here a sense of the seriousness of this particular media outlet. Really Arlington, if you are going to learn anything about history, you should set your sights higher than comic books, trash television, and sensationalist nonsense such as this.

The realistic summary: Both US and EU negotiators feel that they are making  some progress with Iran. The latter is of course spinning it out for all  it is worth. But they have obtained concessions, such as the diversion of some nuclear fuel to an experimental reactor. As agreed, a tiny portion of overseas Iranian funds seized will be returned to act as an incentive to further progress. This will amount to $7B in total, or 7% of frozen Iranian assets of $100B. This is small change for a large and impoverished country, and given the level of corruption there, it will likely drop into some well tailored pockets anyway.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/07/19/us-iran-nuclear-idUSKBN0FN27020140719

The charge that the US supports Hamas is laughable. Even the top US diplomat must wear out the knees in his expensive pants while grovelling at the alter of Israel, even if his personal views are somewhat different (the recent open mike gaff). Over 600 Palestinians have been killed, mostly civilians, as a collective punishment for the murder of three Israeli teens, and still the US cannot find the moral integrity to say anything other than, you should try to limit things fellows.

Originally posted by Arlington Arlington wrote:


That no dissimulation by the so called 'social democrats' and terrorist-pro palestinian supporters can refute. Though they will attempt it.

These funds and those given by the UN and US in support of Hamas will enable continuation of the goal of the destruction and genocidal elimination of Israel.

And those who deny that Hamas is funded remain dupes and intellectual liars and frauds. As Hamas, as a part of the government in Gaza, is calling the shots.

Rockets and mortar rounds recently found in a UN Aid facility, vacant or other, again, prove that all their rhetoric aside..that the same so called 'social democratic' rhetoric; remains nothing more than merde.

And ongoing evidence of their closet sympathies in support of fanatic Islamist terrorism. As demonstrated by their piteous defense of the Hamas terrorists, under the guise of pro palestinians defenders and their pathetic support of Obama.

Yes, those social democrats out there linking up with terrorists. Do you even know what these words mean? If not, you should look them up.

Personally, I don't support any sort of violent radical. As someone interested in history though, I can understand how extreme behaviors can emerge from extreme events. And that certainly applies in spades to the Palestinian territories, which have become, essentially, a giant prison.

Originally posted by Arlington Arlington wrote:



''UNRWA Admits Finding More Rockets Hidden in Gaza School; Second Time in a Week ''


''In the second case in a week, the UN Agency responsible for Palestinians admitted that its staff had discovered rockets hidden in their schools in the Gaza Strip.

“Today, in the course of the regular inspection of its premises, UNRWA (the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East), discovered rockets hidden in a vacant school in the Gaza Strip,” the agency said in a statement Tuesday evening.''


http://www.algemeiner.com/2014/07/22/unrwa-admits-finding-more-rockets-hidden-in-gaza-school-second-time-in-a-week/

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Captain Vancouver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jul 2014 at 18:43
Listen fellows, anyone can grab a quick quote off the net. Unfortunately , there are no shortage of hate mongers, dim wits, and those consumed with rage out there. 


“The Talmud states that...two contrary types of souls exist, a non-Jewish soul comes from the Satanic spheres, while the Jewish soul stems from holiness...Rabbi Kook, the Elder, the revered father of the messianic tendency of Jewish fundamentalism said, “The difference between a Jewish soul and the souls of non-Jews...is greater and deeper than the difference between a human soul and the souls of cattle.’”
Israel Shahak and Norton Mezvinsky’s “Jewish Fundamentalism in Israel”

“Before [the Palestinians] very eyes we are possessing the land and the villages where they, and their ancestors, have lived...We are the generation of colonizers, and without the steel helmet and the gun barrel we cannot plant a tree and build a home.” Israeli leader Moshe Dayan, quoted in Benjamin Beit-Hallahmi, “Original Sins: Reflections on the History of Zionism and Israel”

http://www.ifamericaknew.org/history/origin.html#1948

Sharon isn't alone in his militant tone. Israel's Deputy Prime Minister Eli Yishai is reported by The Yeshiva World News to have said, "We must blow Gaza back to the Middle Ages, destroying all the infrastructure including roads and water." Haaretz also reports that Yishai stated, "The goal of the operation is to send Gaza back to the Middle Ages."

"...Sharon writes in his op-ed, entitled "A decisive conclusion is necessary," that "the residents of Gaza are not innocent, they elected Hamas. The Gazans aren’t hostages; they chose this freely, and must live with the consequences." After saying that Israel needs to "flatten all of Gaza," he goes on to say, "The Americans didn’t stop with Hiroshima – the Japanese weren’t surrendering fast enough, so they hit Nagasaki, too."


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/18/gilad-sharon-israel-gaza-op-ed_n_2155932.html

See? That only took a few minutes. There is plenty of rhetoric on both sides, and the more pushed people become, the more draconian the speeches.

Aiming for some more intelligent commentary would be more productive, IMO.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jul 2014 at 04:01
Captain:
The point I was trying to make is that the quotes from the Koran are the type of thing being preached by the radicals. It's being absorbed by the masses from the day that they are born, until they know no better.
 
Those references to The People of The Book, which ally Christians, Jews and Muslims is not taught.
 
The silent majority in Islamic countries who are oppressed by the Sharia Laws and interpretations placed on Koranic texts dare not speak out for fear of being executed.
 
And the web site where I found those texts, is only one of probably thousands.
 
 
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Arlington Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jul 2014 at 05:32
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:





Captain:
The point I was trying to make is that the quotes from the Koran are the type of thing being preached by the radicals. It's being absorbed by the masses from the day that they are born, until they know no better.
 
Those references to The People of The Book, which ally Christians, Jews and Muslims is not taught.
 
The silent majority in Islamic countries who are oppressed by the Sharia Laws and interpretations placed on Koranic texts dare not speak out for fear of being executed.
 
And the web site where I found those texts, is only one of probably thousands.
 
 
 
 
 


Useless at this point Toyo.

The leftist-socialist and feigned social democratic supporters of Hamas and terror as noted here and elsewhere; under the guise of concern for Palestinian citizenry at large, will never ever not attempt dissimulation and obfuscation in their support.

They will never ever admit to:

a. Israeli sovereignty and right of security.

b. UN and Obama aid, most recently to the turn of 47m, for Hamas and it's clearly avowed intent to destroy Israel.

c. Admit to US weakness and indecisive leadership in policy to support the American long held ally: Israel.

d. Admit that recent graft and bribery payments made to Iran will not only facilitate ongoing covert enrichment of nuc grade material for weapons. Or that as a proxy, Hamas will receive a cut of the same. Rest assured they will.

e. Admit that UN AID teams fly using Qatar (an overt Hamas supporter) air transport; another example of UN anti-Semitism and hostility towards Israel, less a few select nations.

f. Materials that were identified by UN aid inspectors for use in bombarding Israel... were returned to the Gaza governing body. Translated: the UN now has directly aided and abetted the ongoing conflict. As these materials will be used by Hamas.

g. They will ignore the ever increasing anti-Semitism being exhibited in Europe..North Africa and the ME at large.

e. They will ignore the Islamist fanatics persecutions of minority theologies and beliefs and human rights for women. Especially versus Christians throughout the region. See again the threat of genocide now by ISIS in Iraq.

The list and comments are endless. But above all in keeping with their covert, overt and or, guilt by ommission through silence, the eradication of the State of Israel.


Theirs is the suspect. Not yours not mine.

Yours has been intelligent and thoughtful. As has mine. Theirs remains nothing more than unbalanced rhetoric of the typical nature in support of terrorists.

But take heart you have made your point. And many others, other than supporters of terror here, visit this site. And see them for what they are.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jul 2014 at 04:53
Originally posted by Po-Binnasaur Po-Binnasaur wrote:

Recently the U.N has recognized Palestine as an "non-member state" which is the same status as the Vatican is, during the vote 138 countries voted in favor of Palestine and 9 opposed including the U.S and Israel, both the U.S and Israel and many who opposed are saying that this move by the Palestinians is wrong and is getting in the way of making them become a true state, they also said that this new status was harming the peace process and the only way to resolve this is through a direct negotiation between the two (Israel and Palestine). Do you agree with the U.S and Israel's statement? another question I have is, since Palestine now has the power to bring Israel into the ICC and charge them with war crimes, do you think Palestine will do it?
 
To get back to the OP, I believe that if Palestine were to elect a more moderate government, it should be permitted to become a member. The fact that the current ruling party, HAMAS, is recognised by Israel and the west as a terrorist organisation means that Palestine lacks credibility in western eyes, and even in the eyes of some Middle Eastern countries.
 
I do agree that the best way ro resolve the Palestine/Israeli issue is by direct negotiation, or at least with an indepent negotiator after both sides have vowed to abide by the umpires decision, which would be enforceable by the UN.
 
There is plenty of scope, imho, for both Palestine and Israel to live side by side in harmony, it only needs a bit more common sense and moderation on both sides.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Arlington Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jul 2014 at 10:37
''There is plenty of scope, imho, for both Palestine and Israel to live side by side in harmony, it only needs a bit more common sense and moderation on both sides.''


To late for that Toyo.

Because of what I stated previous:


''They will never ever admit to:

a. Israeli sovereignty and right of security.

b. UN and Obama aid, most recently to the turn of 47m, for Hamas and it's clearly avowed intent to destroy Israel.

c. Admit to US weakness and indecisive leadership in policy to support the American long held ally: Israel.

d. Admit that recent graft and bribery payments made to Iran will not only facilitate ongoing covert enrichment of nuc grade material for weapons. Or that as a proxy, Hamas will receive a cut of the same. Rest assured they will.

e. Admit that UN AID teams fly using Qatar (an overt Hamas supporter) air transport; another example of UN anti-Semitism and hostility towards Israel, less a few select nations.

f. Materials that were identified by UN aid inspectors for use in bombarding Israel... were returned to the Gaza governing body. Translated: the UN now has directly aided and abetted the ongoing conflict. As these materials will be used by Hamas.

g. They will ignore the ever increasing anti-Semitism being exhibited in Europe..North Africa and the ME at large.

e. They will ignore the Islamist fanatics persecutions of minority theologies and beliefs and human rights for women. Especially versus Christians throughout the region. See again the threat of genocide now by ISIS in Iraq.

The list and comments are endless. But above all in keeping with their covert, overt and or, guilt by ommission through silence, the eradication of the State of Israel.''


All you have is a anti-Semitic UN and the Terrorist supporters of Iran and Hamas or you have the counter. There is no moderation in Hamas or Iran's agenda of a genocidal of the Israeli state.


Hamas leads the Gaza authority. Until they and the Iran threat, and their supporters, are eradicated you get what you have now. Don't let the terrorist supporters, overt and covert, attempt to dissimulate you into believing other.

They wish to see Israel eliminated from the world map. Nothing more.. no matter their counter rhetoric.

If you believe other you are sadly mistaken. And if it comes to that you will regret having suggested moderation was possible from terrorists.



Edited by Arlington - 27 Jul 2014 at 10:40
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Captain Vancouver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jul 2014 at 16:22
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Originally posted by Po-Binnasaur Po-Binnasaur wrote:

Recently the U.N has recognized Palestine as an "non-member state" which is the same status as the Vatican is, during the vote 138 countries voted in favor of Palestine and 9 opposed including the U.S and Israel, both the U.S and Israel and many who opposed are saying that this move by the Palestinians is wrong and is getting in the way of making them become a true state, they also said that this new status was harming the peace process and the only way to resolve this is through a direct negotiation between the two (Israel and Palestine). Do you agree with the U.S and Israel's statement? another question I have is, since Palestine now has the power to bring Israel into the ICC and charge them with war crimes, do you think Palestine will do it?
 
To get back to the OP, I believe that if Palestine were to elect a more moderate government, it should be permitted to become a member. The fact that the current ruling party, HAMAS, is recognised by Israel and the west as a terrorist organisation means that Palestine lacks credibility in western eyes, and even in the eyes of some Middle Eastern countries.
 
I do agree that the best way ro resolve the Palestine/Israeli issue is by direct negotiation, or at least with an indepent negotiator after both sides have vowed to abide by the umpires decision, which would be enforceable by the UN.
 
There is plenty of scope, imho, for both Palestine and Israel to live side by side in harmony, it only needs a bit more common sense and moderation on both sides.
 
 

The Hamas issue is a bit of a red herring. When people are pushed far enough, some of them become radical and violent. When Europe was occupied by the Nazis, otherwise peaceful and civilized folks did some pretty violent things in reaction to their treatment. Jews themselves, including some surviving to today, committed terrorist acts when they thought survival was on the line. They killed British and allied troops in Palestine, along with civilians, to get the results they wanted. Now in a classic case of the pot calling the kettle black, the position is: we don't negotiate with terrorists. Despite the fact the world negotiated with them, and indeed were quite generous with terms, when they were committing terrorist acts.

And at any rate, Palestine does have a moderate government- the Palestinian Authority. It has cooperated with Israel, and accepts the terms the Saudi peace proposal, which is mainstream to world opinion, and within it accepts Israel's right to exist. Hamas was elected once by those in Gaza, under desperate circumstances. It is uncertain how many would accept their policies under peaceful and settled conditions. If history is a guide, sentiment would shift to more moderate policies, given more moderate treatment. This is hardly surprising.

Direct negotiation is good, but it takes two to tango. Israel has never negotiated in good faith, as it knows that presently it has the upper hand, and so there is no need to offer any sort of compromise. They have the unquestioned backing of the US, their own independent nuclear deterrent, and enemies that are now in chaotic disarray, for the most part. Why talk?

Their only threat currently comes from terrorist pinpricks, for which they are retaliating by killing at a rate of about 100 to 1.

The only negotiated solution that will come is if and when those in Washington find the courage to forego financial and philosophical entreaties of the Israel lobby, do some reading up on their history, and decide to take a more balanced posture in the Middle East.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Paradigm of Humanity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jul 2014 at 09:07
Portraying the Hamas as bad beheaving field negro doesn't work on Palestinians anymore. Bush government and Israeli governments persistently used Al Fatah as a domestic slave for pacification and marginalisation of Palestinian resistance in classical divide and conquer manner. Bush government convinced Al Fatah to a coup d'etat against Hamas in following electoral victory of Hamas in 2006 from which Hamas emerged victorius in Gaza strip from ensuing conflict. Al Fatah still retained control over Westbank and recognition as the Palestinian Authority in which they complied everything they asked from Israel under delusion Israel is willing for a solution. Now, Al Fatah found their hands empty with false promises and found themselves in position of actively policing their own population for Israel. Palestinians becoming increasingly critical toward Al Fatah's policies and in turn Al Fatah is moving closer to Hamas' political standpoint rhethorically at least.

In short, "Hamas is all to blame, if only the Palestinian Authority had control on Gaza" is a cynical Israeli right wing propaganda which unfortunately liberal Isralies as well buy into it. But the fact is they are already merged, Hamas and Al Fatah agreed on a unity government - actual cause of Israeli frustration. The reason why Al Fatah prefered over Hamas is half out of the ideology (the West prefers a secular dictatorship to an islamic democracy) and half out of Al Fatah's compliance due what turned out to be deluded expectations and withering future prospects.

Unlike expectations of Israeli government, Israeli public and the West as a whole, Palestinians are not being alinated from Hamas just due they claim "you are suffering just because you back Hamas". Instead their frustration increases as well as determination to stiffen up the resistance. Hamas is gaining in popularity as a result.



Edited by Paradigm of Humanity - 29 Jul 2014 at 09:13
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Jul 2014 at 14:14
Although we've all gone way off topic, the most recent events in The Gaza Strip and in Israel tend to indicate that perhaps it's time that the US stopped arming Israel, and instead insist on brokering a lasting peace between Palestine and Israel.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Arlington Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Jul 2014 at 19:40
The problem is not US aid Toyo. But the ongoing machinations of Hamas and it's terrorist support states of Iran-Turkey-Qatar and Russia. And the influence they exert. And your failure now to admit this is telling.

The problem remains not US aid. But a rise in anti Jewish/Israeli Semitism and the support of it, on this forum and in the world at large.

The problem is not US aid. But an acceptance, here and in the world, of an Islamist terrorists agenda for a genocidal elimination of the state of Israel.


The problem is not US aid. But an acceptance, here and in the world, of Islamist Terrorists and other forms of state sponsored persecution; of Christian and other minorities theological philosophies.

When this has been eliminated. There then will be peace.

To single out the US as the sole agent capable of bringing it about; without the elimination of the aforementioned is naïve, foolish and or ridiculous.

And you have never struck me previously as any of those things. Be wary Toyo..the pro Hamas terrorist supporters, here and in the world at large, wish to use your concern and genuine empathy for their anti-semitc agendas. Which is to say manipulate your position to seem as if it were theirs.

Don't let them.

Because if they didn't support the Hamas terrorists. They would publically, in writing on this very thread, reject the Hamas stated agenda of elimination of the state of Israel.

But they wont. Because they support it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Aug 2014 at 03:14
Arlington: I read in yesterdays newspaper that the US intends to keep supplying Israel with heavy armaments.
 
Having regard to the collateral damage being done in Gaza, I thought now would be a good time to rethink the US policy in relation to Israel.
 
I'm not suggesting that HAMAS isn't the terrorist organisation that we all know it is, nor am I going soft on HAMAS, but, surely, after all this time, there must be an end to the fighting.


Edited by toyomotor - 01 Aug 2014 at 03:16
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Arlington Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Aug 2014 at 03:06
No no end as long as Hamas and it's masters seek a genocidal elimination of the state of Israel and it's peoples which includes Arabs.

Collateral damage remains first and foremost a Hamas responsibility, burden and price. It includes the citizens they use as human shields, and the murder of innocent civilians viz their tunnels, in the ongoing conflict; initiated by themselves. The latest ceasefire was AGAIN broken by Hamas.

The best thing that could happen is either the Gaza citizenry requests military assistance in their elimination from the government or that the pounding continues until Israeli strat and tac objectives are met.

Dead Gazan's through mistakes in intelligence and or targeting; made by the IDF will be dealt with by the IDF. I don't doubt that. Dead Gazan's due to Hamas's propaganda agendas and violations of Articles of War, in the use as human shields, remain their problem.

In the end the more dead Hamas the better for all concerned.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Aug 2014 at 03:14
Arlington:
 
Bearing in mind that we have been shown TV "evidence" of HAMAS using schools etc as launching sites, if the evidence can be believed, HAMAS is guilty of War Crimes.
 
As I see it, the western world has two options-send in UN troops and force a peaceful settlement, or pull out altogether, that is cease support to both sides, and let them fight it out.
 
The second is not an option when innocents are being killed on grand scale, on both sides, daily.
 
So, regardless of who we consider to be right or wrong, to stop the endless killing of innocents, what do we do?
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Arlington Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Aug 2014 at 03:34
''So, regardless of who we consider to be right or wrong, to stop the endless killing of innocents, what do we do?''

I've already answered that Toyo.


''The best thing that could happen is either the Gaza citizenry requests military assistance in their elimination from the government or that the pounding continues until Israeli strat and tac objectives are met.''


UN insertion is useless. As they are made up predominantly of Hamas supporters, apologists, and financial and logistical backers. Further under no unified command, other than UN; they would not have the authority to return fire other than defensive; given the predominance of anti-Israeli semitics amongst them.

When their mission should be to disarm Hamas fighters and confiscate their means of hostilities.


Destroy any further tunnels and cease the support which enables them.


Especially if they were Europeans..perhaps with the exception of the Brits-French.

They are simply not to be trusted with the actual accomplishment of the mission.

Consequently the Gaza citizenry, as advocated by it's founding father's own son, must seek military assistance from either the US or Britain-France to eliminate Hamas from the region.


Either that or the IDF launches a major three prong attack invades the entire strip and eliminates their opposition. The collaterals will always occur and I trust the IDF, as they have already evidenced, to keep them to as low a count as possible.

Occupation of the strip for 90 days and the re establishment of a Gaza government without Hamas. During this time the UN and non-belligerents could aid the reconstruction and rebuilding of the region.

In addition, Israel should be willing to immediately lift sanctions and open ports and in turn offer massive aid for reconstruction and re open talks for a two state existing.
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