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Patriotism

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toyomotor View Drop Down
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    Posted: 23 Nov 2017 at 00:20
IMO, the most overtly patriotic country in the western world must be the USA.

Americans are a proud race, whose achievements have led the world. Students are taught the Pleddge of Allegiance at a very early age, and, I believe, it instills in them a sense of national pride.

Quote "I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

It therefore comes as a bit of a surprise to learn that many Americans refuse to recite the pledge, and openly reject it's value.

I wish that we had a Pledge of Allegiance in Australia.


It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.
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franciscosan View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Nov 2017 at 02:22
Thailand gets uptight about the king, and India requires people to stand for the national anthem at movies.  What is it that is attractive about an anthem?  Loyalty is admirable, when it is deserved, but at the same time the US allows flag burning, the Under God clause is controversial amongst atheists and agnostics (and polytheists).  The US is a mass of contradictions, paradoxes (and perhaps that is a good thing).  But again, what is attractive about an anthem to you?  Just curious, you need not say.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Nov 2017 at 02:47
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

Thailand gets uptight about the king, and India requires people to stand for the national anthem at movies.  What is it that is attractive about an anthem?  Loyalty is admirable, when it is deserved, but at the same time the US allows flag burning, the Under God clause is controversial amongst atheists and agnostics (and polytheists).  The US is a mass of contradictions, paradoxes (and perhaps that is a good thing).  But again, what is attractive about an anthem to you?  Just curious, you need not say.

Being of the older generation, I was taught to sing the National Anthem (at the time it was God Save the Queen) daily. If we went to the movies, all stood when the anthem was played. In those days, burning our flag would have been tountamount to treason, and the offender/s would have been dealt with quickly by members of the public. Bush justice.

I note that the Pledge of Allegiance doesn't mention which God, or Gods, and of course athiests could always leave that part out.

Singing the National Anthem, and standing when it was played (with hats off) gave us, imho, a sense of pride in our country and our heritage. It certainly did no harm.

Having an Armed Services background also, I believe that the above also taught a measure of respect.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Mar 2018 at 23:42
On our coins, we have the motto, e pluribus unum.  Al Gore misinterpreted that as 'from one, many'   (it means, "from many, one.").  I think there are good things about anthems, and pledges, and oaths, but not if they are taken too far.  Germans tend to not like the anthem, "Deutschland Uber Alles." and rightfully so.  They were very big on such symbols, when they were goose-stepping through Paris.  I think that it is good to teach mottos and slogans to children, giving them a common basis, but I think adults should be fond of such slogans, and nostalgic, but look upon blind parroting with suspicion.  They mean something, something that is generally positive, but something that can also be twisted.  I would suggest that it is better to be familiar than not familiar, because with familiarity, can come a bit of inoculation.  I think some knowledge of such things may be necessary to be a good citizen, but being a good citizen is not the same thing as being a good human being.  The two can coincide, but they are not the same thing.  It is better, and probably more difficult to be the later.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Mar 2018 at 06:52
Quote  The two can coincide, but they are not the same thing.  It is better, and probably more difficult to be the later.

Latter.

I suggest that if one is a good human being, they would automatically be a good citizen. The two are intertwined.

But all of your post misses the point that I was making, that being, I see no harm at all in school children pledging their loyalty to their country, and singing the National Anthem.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Mar 2018 at 23:49
Is a good Nazi, a good human being?  You see no harm, but what about Hitler Youth?  Or the equivalent of Soviet or red China?  How do you distinguish between good loyalty, and bad loyalty.  No, I think that there are times when one should be disloyal to the state, in order to be a Mensch.  That is why I say there is a difference between being a good citizen and a good human being.  When do people admit that their government ('they') are wrong?  Granted there are some people who are alarmists who see a threat everywhere.  They 'cry wolf' over someone flying a flag, or other behavior.  But, there can be a point when there actually is a wolf at the door (actually I like real wolves).  It has happened before, and will happen again.....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Mar 2018 at 00:37
I consider the term "good Nazi" to be an oxymoron. 

So that ends that!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar 2018 at 02:33
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

I consider the term "good Nazi" to be an oxymoron. 

So that ends that!!
The Essene and other heretic types did not do oaths. The idea is, as has been said, aren't we already expected to be doing what we know to be true and worthy of our values? If we are not then an oath will just be a lie on top of our bad values.

There is my home and my community and our values are a source of pride. Until things get perverted as they do sometimes. I find the WW 2 war effort on the home front (of many nations) to be particularly inspiring. 
The root of all desires is the one desire: to come home, to be at peace. -Jean Klein
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar 2018 at 21:38
I have never watched Schindler's List, but I imagine that Schindler might be considered a bad nazi, but a half decent human being.  There are those that embraced Nazism wholeheartedly and worked to conform or abide by its standards, people who were "good" at being Nazis, and there were those who went along but dragged their feet (malingerers or those who were bad at being Nazis).  By the standards of National Socialism, one can say that there were "good" Nazis, and "bad" Nazis.  Those standards are perverted and backwards.  Or you might adopt the attitude that the only good Nazi was a dead Nazi.

One might say that Orson Welles character in the Third Man is a "good" capitalist, and a very bad man.

Actually from what I recently heard, the Essenes gave an oath when they entered the order to follow the rules, which included a rule about not giving oaths.

The government did scrap metal drives, in some cases, not because the metal was needed for the war effort, but for the community to participate.  Compare that with a volunteer force and only a fragment of a population going off to war.  I see why they did that in WWII, but I am not entirely comfortable with it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Mar 2018 at 03:56
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

Actually from what I recently heard, the Essenes gave an oath when they entered the order to follow the rules, which included a rule about not giving oaths.
That's proof you're no Essene!

Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

The government did scrap metal drives, in some cases, not because the metal was needed for the war effort, but for the community to participate.  Compare that with a volunteer force and only a fragment of a population going off to war.  I see why they did that in WWII, but I am not entirely comfortable with it.

I'm not going to quibble about metals. The war at home was real.

I do see the larger point that you are making.
The root of all desires is the one desire: to come home, to be at peace. -Jean Klein
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