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People of Azerbaijan

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Emil_Diniyev View Drop Down
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    Posted: 08 Aug 2009 at 23:10
What do you think?

Are people of Azerbaijan mainly native Caucasians or Turkic settlers?

We have North Caucasian (Lezgin, Avar, Udi, Tsaxur) groups in northern regions but the question is about Azeris the main people of Azerbaijan.

AS you know, before Turkic invasions, the area of Azerbaijan were consisted of Caucasian Albania, confedration of 26 Caucasian tribes.

But of course the kingdom got crushed first by Turkic invasions from north and finally the Oghuz Turks from south.


Edited by Emil_Diniyev - 09 Aug 2009 at 11:21
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Easternbul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Aug 2009 at 09:08
They are both
Turkic settlers and native Caucasians.
The blood don't makes you an Caucasian or an Semitic or whatever.
Your Culture and Language makes you Turkic or Caucasian.So we know that the Azeri language is a Turkic language and that Azeris are calling themselves as Azeri-Turks.So they are Turkic in my eyes but they have definetly Caucasian ancestors too.
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I consider myself Turkic aswell. This is just a question about how others think. Wink


Edited by Emil_Diniyev - 09 Aug 2009 at 22:04
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Easternbul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Aug 2009 at 11:36
Sen Azerbaycan'da mi yasiyorsun ?
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Originally posted by Easternbul Easternbul wrote:

Sen Azerbaycan'da mi yasiyorsun ?


Yes, I do.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote calvo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Aug 2009 at 22:30

Psychologically, do Azeris tend to feel part of the "Turkic family" or the "Caucasian family"?

Do they consider Turkic people such as Turkmens, Anatolian Turks, Uzbeks, and Tatars are their kindred nations, or as total foreigners?
Back in the Russian Empire Azeris were colloquially called "Tatars" although there is little ancestral and cultural relation between Volga and Crimean Tatars and the Azeris. How did Azeris take this?
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Emil_Diniyev Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Aug 2009 at 22:51
We see Meshketian and Anatolian Turks as the closest kinds to us of course but can't say the same for others, it differs from person to person. We consider ourselves as both in fact.

Yes, for instance Georgians still call us Tatarebi. Azeri term for us is a fairly new one really, so I don't think there was any problems. But I think I didn't understood completly about the Tatar thing.




Edited by Emil_Diniyev - 10 Aug 2009 at 01:19
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Believe it or not Emil, the closest people to Azeris are Armenians. Your practically cousins.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Emil_Diniyev Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Aug 2009 at 01:20
Originally posted by Al Jassas Al Jassas wrote:

Believe it or not Emil, the closest people to Azeris are Armenians. Your practically cousins.
 
Al-Jassas


According to what? Confused



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Easternbul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Aug 2009 at 04:13
Like i told you Al Jassas
Blood is not the most important thing.
To share the same culture and the same language is imporant.
So when Azeris are calling themselves as Oghuz people so they are Oghuz people.
The same with the Armenians.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ArmenianSurvival Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Aug 2009 at 07:10

Originally posted by Emil_Diniyev Emil_Diniyev wrote:

but the question is about Azeris the main people of Azerbaijan.

You mean Tatars. The main people of "Azerbaijan" are Tatars.

 

 

Originally posted by Emil_Diniyev Emil_Diniyev wrote:

AS you know, before Turkic invasions, the area of Azerbaijan were consisted of Caucasian Albania, confedration of 26 Caucasian tribes.

 

Before the Turkic invasions, the only place called Azerbaijan was south of the Arax river in Iran. The region you are referring to was known as Arran/Aghvank.

 

In fact, before 1918, there never existed a country or nation called "Azerbaijan" north of the Arax river. Before 1918, the term Azeri exclusively described the people of north-western Iran, south of the Arax.

 

For centuries, the Turkic-speaking tribes of Arran (modern "Azerbaijan") were known as Tatars. That is, until Pan-Turkic armies invaded the region in 1918 and renamed everyone "Azeri" in order to create a satellite state and lay claim on the Iranian province of the same name. This fabrication of history and geography has prevailed to the present day through state-sponsored propaganda in the school system.

 

Lets use accurate vocabulary. You want to know if modern Caspian Tatars are Caucasians or Turkic settlers. I'd say they are a bit of both, although the Turkic aspect seems to be more dominant, at least culturally, politically and historically (by historically, I mean the trend of the locals towards Turkic culture, as well as the modern interpretation Tatars have of their own history).

 
 
Originally posted by Al Jassas Al Jassas wrote:

Believe it or not Emil, the closest people to Azeris are Armenians. Your practically cousins.
 
This is actually true to an extent. The ancient Caucasian Albanians were culturally and politically aligned with Armenians. Armenians influenced their Christianity, their church architecture, and the Armenian scholar Mesrob Mashdots even created the Caucasian Albanian alphabet.
 
Sadly, however, any remnants of this culture and society were disrupted by the invading Tatars, and today, very few traces remain. But what makes modern Tatars and Armenians at least "genetically" close is the fact that the surviving Caucasian Albanians were assimilated by the local Tatars. Also, the survivors of many other minor Caucasian tribes were assimilated by Tatars. Therefore, modern Tatars and Armenians both have a Caucasian 'flavor'.
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Hello to you all

Azerbaijan, the region not the province, according to Arab geographers began fro The Kura river (Barda) to Zanjan east and from the mountains of Dagestan north to Kurdistan from the South.
Armenia began west of the Kura river and north of Aras. THe inhabitants were all called Armenians. Later, those who became muslim became "Azeris" and who remained christians remained Armenians.

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Do I smell a flame war about to ignite? Before it does will some one provide me a definition of "native Caucasian"...
Honi soit qui mal y pense
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ArmenianSurvival Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Aug 2009 at 08:53
Originally posted by Al Jassas Al Jassas wrote:

according to Arab geographers
 
Which Arab geographers?
 
 
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Before it does will some one provide me a definition of "native Caucasian"...
 
I understood this term to mean the sedentary cultures and peoples who inhabited the entities and kingdoms of Caucasia and Transcaucasia prior to the Turkic invasions.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Emil_Diniyev Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Aug 2009 at 18:12
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

will some one provide me a definition of "native Caucasian"...


Speakers of the Caucasian language family.

Circassians, Chechen-Ingush, Dagestanian and Georgian sub-groups. Cuacasian Albans were one of them but extinced, except 5 thousound Udis living in Azerbaijan.


Edited by Emil_Diniyev - 10 Aug 2009 at 18:14
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Emil_Diniyev Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Aug 2009 at 19:58
Originally posted by ArmenianSurvival ArmenianSurvival wrote:

Originally posted by Emil_Diniyev Emil_Diniyev wrote:

but the question is about Azeris the main people of Azerbaijan.

You mean Tatars. The main people of "Azerbaijan" are Tatars.

 

 

Originally posted by Emil_Diniyev Emil_Diniyev wrote:

AS you know, before Turkic invasions, the area of Azerbaijan were consisted of Caucasian Albania, confedration of 26 Caucasian tribes.

 

Before the Turkic invasions, the only place called Azerbaijan was south of the Arax river in Iran. The region you are referring to was known as Arran/Aghvank.

 

In fact, before 1918, there never existed a country or nation called "Azerbaijan" north of the Arax river. Before 1918, the term Azeri exclusively described the people of north-western Iran, south of the Arax.

 

For centuries, the Turkic-speaking tribes of Arran (modern "Azerbaijan") were known as Tatars. That is, until Pan-Turkic armies invaded the region in 1918 and renamed everyone "Azeri" in order to create a satellite state and lay claim on the Iranian province of the same name. This fabrication of history and geography has prevailed to the present day through state-sponsored propaganda in the school system.

 

Lets use accurate vocabulary. You want to know if modern Caspian Tatars are Caucasians or Turkic settlers. I'd say they are a bit of both, although the Turkic aspect seems to be more dominant, at least culturally, politically and historically (by historically, I mean the trend of the locals towards Turkic culture, as well as the modern interpretation Tatars have of their own history).

 
 
Originally posted by Al Jassas Al Jassas wrote:

Believe it or not Emil, the closest people to Azeris are Armenians. Your practically cousins.
 
This is actually true to an extent. The ancient Caucasian Albanians were culturally and politically aligned with Armenians. Armenians influenced their Christianity, their church architecture, and the Armenian scholar Mesrob Mashdots even created the Caucasian Albanian alphabet.
 
Sadly, however, any remnants of this culture and society were disrupted by the invading Tatars, and today, very few traces remain. But what makes modern Tatars and Armenians at least "genetically" close is the fact that the surviving Caucasian Albanians were assimilated by the local Tatars. Also, the survivors of many other minor Caucasian tribes were assimilated by Tatars. Therefore, modern Tatars and Armenians both have a Caucasian 'flavor'.


Fair enough. Tatar. LOL

Actually, our Caucasianess have also much to do with our relations with Dagestan (as you can see in culture) and not just the "Agvhan" historical background.

Whatever, Azerbaijan name existed or not, it was us, so whats your point.





Edited by Emil_Diniyev - 10 Aug 2009 at 20:03
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote calvo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Aug 2009 at 20:03
If Russians and Georgians called Azeris "Tatars" until the 20th century, what did the Azeris call themselves? Turks?
If they considered themselves as "Tatars", did they see the Crimean and Kazan Tatars as their kins?

In the Russian Empire the term "Tatar" was misused for a large number of peoples, even Chechens were called "Tatars" when they are not even Turkic or Altaic.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Aug 2009 at 20:06
Originally posted by Emil_Diniyev Emil_Diniyev wrote:

Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

will some one provide me a definition of "native Caucasian"...


Speakers of the Caucasian language family.

Circassians, Chechen-Ingush, Dagestanian and Georgian sub-groups. Cuacasian Albans were one of them but extinced, except 5 thousound Udis living in Azerbaijan.

Well Azeris are certainly not speakers of the caucasian language family. I would think it fairly likely that a lot of Azeris are descendants of speakers of the caucasian language family, but whether Azeris identify as Turks or descendants of speakers of the caucasian language family I would have no idea, but interested to find out.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Emil_Diniyev Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Aug 2009 at 20:07
Originally posted by ArmenianSurvival ArmenianSurvival wrote:

Originally posted by Al Jassas Al Jassas wrote:

according to Arab geographers
 
Which Arab geographers?
 



Actually, look at this, according to you Azerbaijan didn't existed to north of Araxes before 1918 but it did for the Arabs.

Again, don't tell us your Armenians lies here please and wich have been supported and publicized by Iranian nationalists against our existence.





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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Emil_Diniyev Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Aug 2009 at 20:10
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim Omar al Hashim wrote:

Originally posted by Emil_Diniyev Emil_Diniyev wrote:

Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

will some one provide me a definition of "native Caucasian"...


Speakers of the Caucasian language family.

Circassians, Chechen-Ingush, Dagestanian and Georgian sub-groups. Cuacasian Albans were one of them but extinced, except 5 thousound Udis living in Azerbaijan.

Well Azeris are certainly not speakers of the caucasian language family. I would think it fairly likely that a lot of Azeris are descendants of speakers of the caucasian language family, but whether Azeris identify as Turks or descendants of speakers of the caucasian language family I would have no idea, but interested to find out.


Of course not. I just pointed out for him what is a "Native Caucasian".




Edited by Emil_Diniyev - 10 Aug 2009 at 20:11
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Emil_Diniyev Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Aug 2009 at 20:14
Originally posted by calvo calvo wrote:

If Russians and Georgians called Azeris "Tatars" until the 20th century, what did the Azeris call themselves? Turks?
If they considered themselves as "Tatars", did they see the Crimean and Kazan Tatars as their kins?

In the Russian Empire the term "Tatar" was misused for a large number of peoples, even Chechens were called "Tatars" when they are not even Turkic or Altaic.



Its true about Russians but other neighbours of ours called us in that way aswell and Georgians for instance still do.

I don't think it has much to do with the Tatars we know but a term just used to describe us as "Turkic Barbar", no disrespect to Tatars but thats how others think of.

In fact, I could say that its more of a insult calling us that way, at least according to them.


Edited by Emil_Diniyev - 10 Aug 2009 at 20:16
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Aug 2009 at 20:14
Originally posted by Emil_Diniyev Emil_Diniyev wrote:


Again, don't tell us your Armenians lies here please and wich have been supported and publicized by Iranian nationalists against our existence.

Just as a friendly note, we are pretty strict about standards of behaviour around here. So by all means attack his arguments, but don't attack the person, or bait him into attacking you please. Treat him the way you'd like him to treat you.

That, as always, goes for everyone.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AyKurt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Aug 2009 at 21:02
Azeris are not Armenian muslims no matter what any ignorant outside geographer claims.  The dominant genetic makeup of the Caucasus has been decided tens of thousands of years before any of the number of Indo-European or Turkic groups migrated to the region.  They both share, among other peoples, the genes of those early settlers.

As to what they were called, we find the same problem throughout the Turkic world.  Turks rarely have common ethnic names.  They most likely identified with their family, clan and tribe and those would be their strongest identifiers.  Oghuz, Turk, and after Islamic conversions Turkmen, were names they would have been familiar with.  Oghuz began to be replaced with Turk.  Prior to the Ottoman empire Turkish national identity was tribal and depended on what beylik or confederation those tribes aligned themselves with.  The Akkoyunlu for example covered most of present day Eastern Turkey, Caucasus and Western Iran.  But Akkoyunlu was not an ethnic national name either but a political entity that also included Kurdish tribes among others.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Aug 2009 at 23:30
Originally posted by Al Jassas Al Jassas wrote:

Hello to you all

Azerbaijan, the region not the province, according to Arab geographers began fro The Kura river (Barda) to Zanjan east and from the mountains of Dagestan north to Kurdistan from the South.
Armenia began west of the Kura river and north of Aras. THe inhabitants were all called Armenians. Later, those who became muslim became "Azeris" and who remained christians remained Armenians.

Al-Jassas



Before the Iranian part and Southern Rep of Azer part were Turkicised the majority of the inhabitants were what could be called Parthian (modern descendants include Tats, Talysh, Gilaki, and Mazandarani (all related to Zaza in Turkey) and in the Western parts sedentary Medeans (Kurds).

Azarbaijan was always a geographic term rather than an ethnic term.   Azerbaijan is an Arabised word, it comes from Azarbadegan.  Which means land of fire in Middle Persian (Parthian dialect). Many Zaroastrian temples were built there with gas coming up directly to form the eternal fire.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Emil_Diniyev Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Aug 2009 at 00:32
Originally posted by Zagros Zagros wrote:

Originally posted by Al Jassas Al Jassas wrote:

Hello to you all

Azerbaijan, the region not the province, according to Arab geographers began fro The Kura river (Barda) to Zanjan east and from the mountains of Dagestan north to Kurdistan from the South.
Armenia began west of the Kura river and north of Aras. THe inhabitants were all called Armenians. Later, those who became muslim became "Azeris" and who remained christians remained Armenians.

Al-Jassas



Before the Iranian part and Southern Rep of Azer part were Turkicised the majority of the inhabitants were what could be called Parthian (modern descendants include Tats, Talysh, Gilaki, and Mazandarani (all related to Zaza in Turkey) and in the Western parts sedentary Medeans (Kurds).

Azarbaijan was always a geographic term rather than an ethnic term.   Azerbaijan is an Arabised word, it comes from Azarbadegan.  Which means land of fire in Middle Persian (Parthian dialect). Many Zaroastrian temples were built there with gas coming up directly to form the eternal fire.




What is this supposed to be?

For your information, Parthians didn't even reached South of Azer Republic, neither did Medians.

This territority had one inhabbitants and that was Caucasian Albans, including South of it.  Maybe there could be 1 or 2 "Iranic" origin tribes among these 26 tribes but were never such major ones like you mentioned, Parthian and Medeans. Maybe you mean the Azerbaijan province of Iran, I don't know.

"According to the historian Robert H. Hewsen, the Albanian tribes "must have been largely of autochthonous Caucasian origin, but we cannot be certain that this was true of all twenty-six of them. Thus, properly speaking, there was no Albanian people per se but only a federation of Caucasian tribes among whom the Albanians were possibly only one, paramount, tribe which had organized the federation to begin with."



Edited by Emil_Diniyev - 11 Aug 2009 at 02:09
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Aug 2009 at 02:41
I didn't mention the Caucasus proper.  I'm talking about the name Azerbaijan and the historical region of Azerbaijan which is all of Iranian (South) Azerbaijan north until the Caucasus mountains.  This was the heartland of the Medeans and then the Parthians when they became sedentary and mixed with locals.  Tats and Talysh are mostly their descendants.  Just like Azeri Turks today are mostly descended from Oghuz Turks who mixed with locals.

F Emil I:

Median Empire:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Median_Empire.svg

Parthian Empire:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/36/Map_Parthian_Empire-fr.png



NB: my mistake: Azarbadegan means protector of fire (which makes more sense given the name).


Edited by Zagros - 11 Aug 2009 at 02:43
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Emil_Diniyev Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Aug 2009 at 02:46
What do you mean?

So you talk about Azerbaijan of Iran and not the Azerbaijan proper (country)? First clearify this for me.


Edited by Emil_Diniyev - 11 Aug 2009 at 02:46
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Aug 2009 at 02:52
I am talking about historical region of Azerbaijan, not the modern country or Iranian provinces;  the definition that Al Jassas gave.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Emil_Diniyev Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Aug 2009 at 02:54
Originally posted by Zagros Zagros wrote:

I am talking about historical region of Azerbaijan, not the modern country or Iranian provinces;  the definition that Al Jassas gave.


And whats that? Could you clerify it?

Because like explained, there has never been Median or Parthian presence in any regions of Azerbaijan proper, not even South of it as you mentioned.

And you gave me the links but don't bother to look at the maps there? Wink

Because I still haven't figured out what you try to argue.


Edited by Emil_Diniyev - 11 Aug 2009 at 03:01
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Aug 2009 at 03:05
Look at the defnition Al Jassus gave.

I am not arguing, I was adding information.  If you deny the presence of Medians and Parthians in Azerbaijan then there is nothing I can do for you except give you a link to external academic sources:
Quote

Media

 ancient region, Iran

Main

ancient country of northwestern Iran, generally corresponding to the modern regions of Azerbaijan, Kurdistan, and parts of Kermanshah. Media first appears in the texts of the Assyrian king Shalmaneser III (858–824 bc), in which peoples of the land of “Mada” are recorded. The inhabitants came to be known as Medes.

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/372125/Media



I am aware of a certain disregard for academia amongst Rep. Azerbaijani hyper nationalists.  And that trait is certainly manifest in you.


Edited by Zagros - 11 Aug 2009 at 03:09
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