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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Qaradağlı Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Aug 2011 at 01:41
If you actually read the medieval history of the region, you can see that population of Azerbaijan are ethnic Oghuz Turks, or Turkmens as they later would be called. There are countless tribes of Turks with their own names that settled in Azerbaijan, so this language story are nothing but a myth, and a newly created one.

Well, the argument here is that Iran itself should be a Turk country like it was for centuries or at least Turk-Persian and not Persian dominated like it is today. And the other one is of course that Southern Azerbaijan should get its independence. And if only there is someone that have to emigrate, that is Persians, namely to Tadjikistan and Afghanistan. Or even India. Have fun with your Aryan brothers.


Edited by Qaradağlı - 11 Aug 2011 at 01:58
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Qaradağlı Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Aug 2011 at 01:44
Originally posted by Zagros Zagros wrote:



And I'm sure he understands your interests in the counter definition.


The difference is, I m actually originally from Southern Azerbaijan. From Ahar!

Yes, there is 20-30 millions. There are not that many in actual Azerbaijan provinces, but there are more in Tehran, Karaj, Isfahan and other cities.

Qazvin, Zanjan and Hamadan are also Azerbaijani provinces. So if we count actual Azerbaijani provinces, that is west and east Azerbaijan, Ardebil, Zanjan, Qazvin and Hamadan and millions in Tehran, Karaj, Isfahan etc...Not that little, is it?

Tehran now has as much Turk population as Persian. Karaj are mainly consisted of Turks. And they are in middle of Iran. LOL


Edited by Qaradağlı - 11 Aug 2011 at 01:50
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Aug 2011 at 02:33
The genetic lines in Azerbaijan go back way further than Turkic migrations, a fact which is evidenced by similar DNA profiles to Armenians, Kurds and longer resident populations.  Obviously there is a Turkic genetic element and you can see it int he features of some of the people.  However, overall, it is more like the situation in Mexico actually where a ruling and military elite changed the language of the area more than its ethnic make-up.  Also, contrary to popular belief Azerbaijan's main language was not Turkicised int he time of the Seljuqs, but more so as a result of Timurlane's campaigns.  

As for Iran being classed as Turkic it could have happened but the cultural strength of the extant civilisation meant that the Turko-Mongol ruling elites were Persianised within two generations. 

If the Turkic language is in decline in Azerbaijan (which I don't think it particularly is, this only happens were turcophones move out of the Turcophonic region) then it is up to the people to maintain it, not the state. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Aug 2011 at 02:35
Originally posted by Qaradağlı Qaradağlı wrote:



The difference is, I m actually originally from Southern Azerbaijan. From Ahar!



Makes no difference.  Your interest isn't particularly changed by that nor does it have more authority, unless you have actually conducted a census in Iran.

To base the population estimate on population of provinces is also flawed in that it assumes everyone is a Turcophone, which is not the case.  West Azerbaijan for example has a significant Kurdish population.  And these provinces are meant for municipal administration anyway, not any indication specifically of ethnic make-up.  Azerbaijan derives from a Middle-Persian word meaning land of fire so Azeri is not an ethnic term since there are Azeri-Kurds and Armenians too - Azeri-Turk would be correct.


Edited by Zagros - 11 Aug 2011 at 02:40
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Qaradağlı Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Aug 2011 at 03:12
Not at all. Turkmen tribes actually settled in Azerbaijan in big numbers and created modern day population. Countess tribes.

Afshar, Bayat, Qaraqoyunlu, Baharlu, Qajar, Qaradaghli (my tribe), Shahseven, Qarapapak, Qarayi, Geymik, Shatrunlu, Qashqay etc... and even many other Turkmen tribes from Anatolia that settled in Azerbaijan fleeing Ottoman persecution like Chepni, Arapgirlu, Turgudlu, Bozcalu, Acirlu, Hinislu etc...

Those are only some of the tribes that I actually could remember.


Edited by Qaradağlı - 11 Aug 2011 at 09:18
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Qaradağlı Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Aug 2011 at 03:16
Really, your post didn't make any sense. How does it proves that there are not 20-30 million Azeri Turk population in Iran.

"not any indication specifically of ethnic make-up."

Indeed, Ardebil, Qazvin, Zanjan, Hamadan are also Turk provinces, but dosen't bears the "Azerbaijan" name.


Edited by Qaradağlı - 11 Aug 2011 at 03:22
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Aug 2011 at 09:00
Originally posted by Qaradağlı Qaradağlı wrote:

Not at all. Turkmen tribes actually settled in Azerbaijan in big numbers and created modern day population. Countess tribes.

Afshar, Qaraqoyunlu, Baharlu, Qajar, Qaradaghli (my tribe), Shahseven, Qarapapak, Qarayi, Geymik, Shatrunlu, Qashqay etc... and even many other Turkmen tribes from Anatolia that settled in Azerbaijan fleeing Ottoman persecution like Chepni, Arapgirlu, Turgudlu, Bozcalu, Acirlu, Hinislu etc...

Those are only some of the tribes that I actually could remember.


You are the first Azeri I know saying such a thing. Most people I have met from your country know they are part native Caucasian, part Turkic.

Also, I provided you CIAs statistics about Irans demographics. Can you provide an official source that states 20-30 million Azeris in Iran?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Qaradağlı Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Aug 2011 at 09:17
I did not name those tribes out of nowhere. And I m actually from one of those tribes myself.

There are 20-30 million of you count Turk populations in big cities.


Edited by Qaradağlı - 11 Aug 2011 at 18:29
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Qaradağlı Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Aug 2011 at 17:35
From Tabriz

"Azərbaycan Canımdır Ay Ulduz Bayrağımdır", "Azerbaijan is my heart, crescent-star my flag"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7AYcrSwr4c

And many other slogans. According to our Persian friends, they are not even aware of their idenity...


Edited by Qaradağlı - 11 Aug 2011 at 17:37
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.


Edited by Qaradağlı - 11 Aug 2011 at 18:30
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Aug 2011 at 17:56
Originally posted by Qaradağlı Qaradağlı wrote:


There are 20-30 million of you count Turk populations in big cities.


I ask again. Official source? I gave you CIA for the demographics and now I also give you this: http://lcweb2.loc.gov/frd/cs/profiles/Iran.pdf . As you can see most people are Iranic (Persians, Kurds, Lurs).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Qaradağlı Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jan 2012 at 11:07
Khamenei pays a visit to ethnic Azerbaijanis, notice that they are nomadic. The strong nomadic Turkic culture can be easily observed. Also interesting that, it seems most of these people (old) are unable to speak even a single word of Persian.

Also notice how fluent Khamenei is in Azeri Turkish.






Edited by Qaradağlı - 07 Jan 2012 at 13:15
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jan 2012 at 18:42
The weight of genetic evidence shows mainly indigenous origins for Azeris, not CA tribes, which is pretty much consistent with most people around the world. Language and corresponding identity is not correlated to genetic origin. Azeris are no exception to this rule. Closest thing to a Azeri in the north are there neighbors and in Iran other Iranians. Love genetics, as they contradict ethnic nationalist myths almost every time.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jan 2012 at 19:21
Originally posted by Leonidas Leonidas wrote:

Love genetics, as they contradict ethnic nationalist myths almost every time.


Long time no seen Leonida!
I second what you said! I wouldn't use genetics in historical issues or ethnic identity, but they are also useful to shut some mouths who make baseless statements.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jan 2012 at 21:16
Hi flipper, still no computer but I will try and use my phone more often!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mukarrib Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jan 2012 at 21:24
Re: The video above.

Any people who live in yurts must be Turks.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paradigm of Humanity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jan 2012 at 21:59
Genetics and nationality are different matters. Like Turkey, Azerbaijan is dominantly consisted from its native inhabitants. One more thing, Armenian is Indo-European (not Caucasian), so geography and language are different things too...


Edited by Paradigm of Humanity - 07 Jan 2012 at 21:59
the single postmodern virtue of obsessive egalitarianism
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mukarrib Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jan 2012 at 23:29
Turkey is not predominantly made up of its original native inhabitants.

The Turks arrived there only about 1000 years ago.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Qaradağlı Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan 2012 at 01:52
Did you guys watch the video or what?

You know, only Turkics lives in Yurts. You cannot "assimilate" anyone to live in Yurts. LOL

And that is how most of Azerbaijani Turks lived, at least semi-nomadic, until modern times. Of course there were also big amount of non-nomadic people, but it was not the majority. This tradition continued more so in Southern Azerbaijan in contrast to Northern Azerbaijan where it was occupied by Russians.

But there are still solely nomadic Azeri tribes, like Shahsevens.


Edited by Qaradağlı - 08 Jan 2012 at 01:58
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan 2012 at 06:02
Originally posted by Mukarrib Mukarrib wrote:

Turkey is not predominantly made up of its original native inhabitants.

The Turks arrived there only about 1000 years ago.


Have you really checked up the data for Turkey? What does it matter when Turkic tribes arrived? The question is how many were they? In many many cases, people are more or less their neolithic past and Turkey is partially no exception.

Just an example...In Turkey there is the highest percentage of the G2 haplogroup in Europe. This rare haplogroup was found in the iceman Ötzi who was found in northern Italy. Do you know where you will find G2? Northern Italy, Aegean Islands & Crete, Thessaly and Turkey (11%). Does that ring a bell? First farmers of Europe 6000 BC? Etruscan migrations maybe (hypothetically speaking) ?


Edited by Flipper - 08 Jan 2012 at 06:13
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jan 2012 at 10:06
Why anyone even graces these stupid threads with serious replies any more is beyond me.  
"There was glory in pissing, Corabb decided as he watched the stream curve out and make that familiar but unique sound as it hit the ground." So true.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Qaradağlı Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jan 2012 at 01:49
Indeed it is a stupid thread, but bunch of people who has no idea of a said people trying to "change" somethings for their own agenda are even more stupid, and I personally can't stand them.

Try to create stories about Turks, it dosen't changes the facts we ruled you (Persians, Greeks, Kurds, Armenians and what not) for hundreds of years. And by we I mean Anatolian Turks and us Azeri Turks.

I don't see any other explanation behind such stupid propaganda.

Anyway, would be better to lock or even delete this thread. Wink


Edited by Qaradağlı - 10 Jan 2012 at 01:50
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jan 2012 at 06:25
Originally posted by Qaradağlı Qaradağlı wrote:

Indeed it is a stupid thread, but bunch of people who has no idea of a said people trying to "change" somethings for their own agenda are even more stupid, and I personally can't stand them.

Try to create stories about Turks, it dosen't changes the facts we ruled you (Persians, Greeks, Kurds, Armenians and what not) for hundreds of years. And by we I mean Anatolian Turks and us Azeri Turks.

I don't see any other explanation behind such stupid propaganda.

Anyway, would be better to lock or even delete this thread. Wink


Wasn't it you that tried to make an agenda about half the population of Iran being Turks? What is so stupid about this thread really?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Qaradağlı Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jan 2012 at 09:38
I never said "half of Iran". And how is that an "agenda"?

In contrast, the constant attempt of insulting Turks by spewing such theories are an agenda.

Talking of Iran, it had been Azeri Turks who ruled Iran until 1925, and such recent theories by Persians during Pahlavi era has a clear propaganda goal and agenda. "Azeris are "Ayrans" (yeah, Aryan BS), our Ayran nation had always been Ayran for past 1000 years".

Even Pahlavi family itself was half Azeri Turk by blood (Reza Shah, his son Mohammed Reza Shah and his children), they were not "pure Ayrans" as they would like to believe they were. I think this might be the biggest reason why such theory was started under Pahlavi era. Someone "ashamed" of his Turkic half it seems.






Edited by Qaradağlı - 10 Jan 2012 at 10:10
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mukarrib Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jan 2012 at 20:24
The fact is that in the entire Muslim world people mixed a lot. There was little care or even recognition of so called ethnic boundaries. That's why there's a lot of Turkic people in not just Iran but even in the Arab countries. You can see it in the people, and many can tell the story of their Turkish ancestor, who most families have at least one or two.

Likewise the Ottoman in Anatolia mixed a lot with Georgians, Greeks, Slavs etc. and so modern Anatolian Turks look almost nothing like their central asian ancestors.

The point? There's none, who cares. Why people get so bent out of shape over ethnic issues is beyond me. We're all children of Adam (pbuh), lets leave it at that.


Edited by Mukarrib - 10 Jan 2012 at 20:25
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jan 2012 at 20:37
Originally posted by Qaradağlı Qaradağlı wrote:

I never said "half of Iran". And how is that an "agenda"?

In contrast, the constant attempt of insulting Turks by spewing such theories are an agenda.

Talking of Iran, it had been Azeri Turks who ruled Iran until 1925, and such recent theories by Persians during Pahlavi era has a clear propaganda goal and agenda. "Azeris are "Ayrans" (yeah, Aryan BS), our Ayran nation had always been Ayran for past 1000 years".

Even Pahlavi family itself was half Azeri Turk by blood (Reza Shah, his son Mohammed Reza Shah and his children), they were not "pure Ayrans" as they would like to believe they were. I think this might be the biggest reason why such theory was started under Pahlavi era. Someone "ashamed" of his Turkic half it seems.



Have I missed something here? Who said Azeris were Aryans? The thread questions whether they are native Caucasians. Who attempted to insult Turks here?

Regards
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jan 2012 at 20:38
Originally posted by Mukarrib Mukarrib wrote:

The fact is that in the entire Muslim world people mixed a lot. There was little care or even recognition of so called ethnic boundaries. That's why there's a lot of Turkic people in not just Iran but even in the Arab countries. You can see it in the people, and many can tell the story of their Turkish ancestor, who most families have at least one or two.

Likewise the Ottoman in Anatolia mixed a lot with Georgians, Greeks, Slavs etc. and so modern Anatolian Turks look almost nothing like their central asian ancestors.

The point? There's none, who cares. Why people get so bent out of shape over ethnic issues is beyond me. We're all children of Adam (pbuh), lets leave it at that.


I agree with you Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Qaradağlı Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2012 at 01:02
But Azerbaijan and Anatolia are not same, the two had different histories, namely the Safavids and Ottomans.

Safavids were more Turkic than Ottomans, this is a fact. The Safavid army that met Ottoman army was a Turkoman army, facing mostly non-Turk janissaries.

Also, many Oghuz tribes from Anatolia settled in Azerbaijan during Safavid era, because of persecution by Ottomans. While Anatolia indeed received non-Turkic population, but let's not exeggerate. There is some Balkan settlement, and then the Circassian one. It's not that ordinary people in Turkey were result of mixes. But there are actually millions that are not Turk, and it is a known fact, they are not assimilated, they know they are Circassian, Albanian etc...or in many cases mixed families.

But the point is, Azerbaijan are not like that. It received more Turkic settlement, in contrast. And there were little intermariage with other ethnicities. The boundary between Azeri TUrks and other ethnicites were always clear, so...

Plus the areas where the different Oghuz clans spread are known. For instance Urmia and around it are all Afshar, no exception. Ganja and northwards + Borchali are all Qarapapagh and so on...These are known facts.


Edited by Qaradağlı - 11 Jan 2012 at 01:23
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Qaradağlı Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2012 at 01:15
Originally posted by Flipper Flipper wrote:

Originally posted by Qaradağlı Qaradağlı wrote:

I never said "half of Iran". And how is that an "agenda"?

In contrast, the constant attempt of insulting Turks by spewing such theories are an agenda.

Talking of Iran, it had been Azeri Turks who ruled Iran until 1925, and such recent theories by Persians during Pahlavi era has a clear propaganda goal and agenda. "Azeris are "Ayrans" (yeah, Aryan BS), our Ayran nation had always been Ayran for past 1000 years".

Even Pahlavi family itself was half Azeri Turk by blood (Reza Shah, his son Mohammed Reza Shah and his children), they were not "pure Ayrans" as they would like to believe they were. I think this might be the biggest reason why such theory was started under Pahlavi era. Someone "ashamed" of his Turkic half it seems.



Have I missed something here? Who said Azeris were Aryans? The thread questions whether they are native Caucasians. Who attempted to insult Turks here?

Regards


It was not aimed at anyone, talking generally.

Well, that surely isn't the case, most of Azeri Turks have nothing to do with Caucasus.

History of Azeri Turks or Azerbaijan cannot be limited into Caucasus, in fact it mostly has nothing to do with Caucasus. Center of Azerbaijan and Azeri Turks are Tabriz.


Edited by Qaradağlı - 11 Jan 2012 at 01:19
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2012 at 01:34
English royal family has strong German ancestry, does that make them Germany's royal family?  British used Indian soldiers in WW1 and WW2, does that make Britain India?

Originally posted by Qaradağlı Qaradağlı wrote:

But Azerbaijan and Anatolia are not same, the two had different histories, namely the Safavids and Ottomans.

Safavids were more Turkic than Ottomans, this is a fact. The Safavid army that met Ottoman army was a Turkoman army, facing mostly non-Turk janissaries.

Also, many Oghuz tribes from Anatolia settled in Azerbaijan during Safavid era, because of persecution by Ottomans. While Anatolia indeed received non-Turkic population, but let's not exeggerate. There is some Balkan settlement, and then the Circassian one. It's not that ordinary people in Turkey were result of mixes. But there are actually millions that are not Turk, and it is a known fact, they are not assimilated, they know they are Circassian, Albanian etc...or in many cases mixed families.

But the point is, Azerbaijan are not like that. It received more Turkic settlement, in contrast. And there were little intermariage with other ethnicities. The boundary between Azeri TUrks and other ethnicites were always clear, so...

Plus the areas where the different Oghuz clans spread are known. For instance Urmia and around it are all Afshar, no exception. Ganja and northwards + Borchali are all Qarapapagh and so on...These are known facts.


What does that matter when Abbas Shah called himself Shahanshah of Iran and NOT Turkazeristan?  You can make your racist claims all day long, but such notions were hardly a consideration in those days. Even so, You should not call Turks Azeri - since the word Azer is persian anyway (as is Azerbaijan) and is a demonym for the pre-Turkic population.  As for genetic heritage, it is obvious without DNA results who has Turkmen ancestry and who has ancestry in common with pre-Turkic residents.

And if Turks were unhappy in Iran, they are as a group large enough and powerful enough to separate if they so pleased.

People like you can yap all day long until you're blue in the face but that won't change a thing so long as your outlook is so divergent from reality.
"There was glory in pissing, Corabb decided as he watched the stream curve out and make that familiar but unique sound as it hit the ground." So true.
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