| FORUM | ARCHIVE |                    | TOTAL QUIZ RESULT |


  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Plato or Aristotle?
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login


Welcome stranger, click here to read about some of the great benefits of registering for a free account with us and joining us in our global online community.


Plato or Aristotle?

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <12
Poll Question: Would you describe yourself as more of a Platonist or an Aristotelian?
Poll Choice Votes Poll Statistics
9 [45.00%]
9 [45.00%]
2 [10.00%]
You can not vote in this poll

Author
drgonzaga View Drop Down
King
King
Avatar
Plus Ultra

Joined: 01 Oct 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 6262
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Mar 2011 at 20:11
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

It seems reasonable to suggest that Christianity is what resuts if you cross Plato with Judaism.
 
I'm tempted to explore the possibility that Islam is what results if you cross Aristotle with Judaism. Ermm
 
Well that is what Philo did and if we are to discuss the Alexandrian roots of early Christianity and its philosophical constructs, that conclusion is inescapable. I myself am more comfortable with Aristotle, but I can understand the choices taken by Ako and Arch because if we are going to find the longing for the ideal as perfection then the Republic is the "Indian in the Cupboard" of Augustine's The City of God. However, the Saint differs from the flatulence of Plato in terms of the Ideal and how such is defined. Such comes to the forefront when one juxtaposes the definiton of evil in the Greek and that shaped by the African. To the former evil was all that was not in conformance with the State and justice was the imposition of this conformity. The state itself defined evil. Thankfully, Augustine, presented evil as ignorance of God (the ultimate good) and knowlege of the ultimate good and allegiance to it would always produce justice. Within this context there is ample room for justice as a virtue, not so with Plato where justice is little more than a function of excellence in the desired ideal. There is no mercy in Plato since all as excellence in function demands totalitarian adhesion.
 
By now all of you have gathered my vote went to Alexander's tutor!
 
PS: Thomas Aquinas rescued the Church from platonism although Calvin would do his best to bring it back by abusing his reading of Augustine! As for arguments over who proceeds from what and this essence and that aura with respect to nature...I might surmise that all such is little more than an angels and pin fascination.
 
 


Edited by drgonzaga - 20 Mar 2011 at 18:54
Honi soit qui mal y pense
Back to Top
Sponsored Links


Back to Top
Flipper View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 23 Apr 2006
Location: Anatolia&Balkan
Status: Offline
Points: 2798
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar 2011 at 08:36
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

It seems reasonable to suggest that Christianity is what resuts if you cross Plato with Judaism.
 
I'm tempted to explore the possibility that Islam is what results if you cross Aristotle with Judaism. Ermm


Wow, be careful with that statement! Some Platonics would simply curse you if they heard you connecting Plato to Christianity. LOL

Now, if you have happened to talk with an Asian, he/she would probably tell you Plato has more in common with Buddhism. Actually, from those few things I know about that religion, I tend to find it more probable than Christianity.


Edited by Flipper - 20 Mar 2011 at 08:37
FΑΝΑΚΤΟΥ ΜΙΔΑ ΓΟΝΟΣ
Back to Top
gcle2003 View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar
PM Honorary Member

Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Location: Luxembourg
Status: Offline
Points: 13262
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar 2011 at 14:09
Originally posted by Flipper Flipper wrote:

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

It seems reasonable to suggest that Christianity is what resuts if you cross Plato with Judaism.
 
I'm tempted to explore the possibility that Islam is what results if you cross Aristotle with Judaism. Ermm


Wow, be careful with that statement! Some Platonics would simply curse you if they heard you connecting Plato to Christianity. LOL

Now, if you have happened to talk with an Asian, he/she would probably tell you Plato has more in common with Buddhism.
In that both believe in the transmigratin of souls via reincarnation, yes.  But Christiian - at least Catholic Christian - cncepts of the Eternal City with its guardian elite and its protection via the militant orders and the need for the ordinary citizen to recognise and remin in his place are reminiscent of Plato's Republic.
 
Protestant Christianity of course differs considerably from that, and its original emphasis on individual conscience/observation  and independence of congregations reminds one more of Aristotle. And indeed of Islam.
Quote
Actually, from those few things I know about that religion, I tend to find it more probable than Christianity.
I'm not sure 'probability' is measurable here, but it fits Ockham's Razor better, I would agree.
Citizen of Ankh-Morpork.

Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.

Back to Top
drgonzaga View Drop Down
King
King
Avatar
Plus Ultra

Joined: 01 Oct 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 6262
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar 2011 at 19:05
I was amused by this statement from Gcle:
 
Protestant Christianity of course differs considerably from that, and its original emphasis on individual conscience/observation  and independence of congregations reminds one more of Aristotle. And indeed of Islam.
 
Is not individual conscience a rather amorphous term akin to free will in "drag" since the overarching characteristic of Protestant fundamentalist Christianity is premised upon a dulling conformity?
Honi soit qui mal y pense
Back to Top
gcle2003 View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar
PM Honorary Member

Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Location: Luxembourg
Status: Offline
Points: 13262
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar 2011 at 20:16
I'm not suggesting that the Protestant reformers actually believed in individual conscience, let alone practised it. It's what they preached.
 
You're probably right that Protestant conformity is duller than Catholic conformity.
I was thinking of apologising topresent company there, but it strikes me that we don't seem to have any known Protestant members, do we?
Citizen of Ankh-Morpork.

Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.

Back to Top
opuslola View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 22 Feb 2011
Location: MS, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 1009
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar 2011 at 23:48
Originally posted by Flipper Flipper wrote:

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

It seems reasonable to suggest that Christianity is what resuts if you cross Plato with Judaism.
 
I'm tempted to explore the possibility that Islam is what results if you cross Aristotle with Judaism. Ermm


Wow, be careful with that statement! Some Platonics would simply curse you if they heard you connecting Plato to Christianity. LOL

Now, if you have happened to talk with an Asian, he/she would probably tell you Plato has more in common with Buddhism. Actually, from those few things I know about that religion, I tend to find it more probable than Christianity.
But, it is not a problem if one considers the Fomenko Theory!  Thus, the original and only Plato, was this man.
 
 
The Christianity and Muslim postitions are included here!
 
"It is so simple, that a child can do it!"  Wink
 
Regards,
Back to Top
drgonzaga View Drop Down
King
King
Avatar
Plus Ultra

Joined: 01 Oct 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 6262
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Mar 2011 at 00:12
Fomenko? Isn't he really Rasputin...and all of the confusion simply the product of false mathematics in the Julian Calendar of the Czars?
Honi soit qui mal y pense
Back to Top
gcle2003 View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar
PM Honorary Member

Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Location: Luxembourg
Status: Offline
Points: 13262
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Mar 2011 at 16:04
This could be fun.
 
Immanuel Kant and Kublai Khan are the same person but one is better at it than the other.
 
And of course, shortly after Hery IV left Canossa he rushed to England in time to get rid of that nasty Richard II, with his 'white, rounded and feminine' face. Which proves Shakespeare was reincarnated as Pirandello.
 
I won't even start with Marx, or indeed Spencer.
 
 
Citizen of Ankh-Morpork.

Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.

Back to Top
opuslola View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 22 Feb 2011
Location: MS, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 1009
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Mar 2011 at 19:07
Laugh!  I just loved the responses above, but just what would your opinion of the words of the above famous men, were later to be found only the words of some 15th, 16th, or 17th century forgers?
 
Would you then go to the lengths that you do today, when you all consider these men to be a portrait of a "great and olden era?"
 
Note this;
 
 
"Origin:
1250–1300; Middle English forgen  < Old French forgier  < Latin fabricāre  to fabricate; see fabric

—Related forms
forge·a·ble, adjective
forg·er, noun
re·forge·a·ble, adjective
un·forge·a·ble, adjective

—Synonyms
2.  shape, fabricate, manufacture, fashion, mold."
 
It seems to me somewhat funny that the very word to describe such an act, is regarded (by the best authorities) to have only been considered in the period of "1250-1300?"
 
Have all of you merely been "moulded?" 

Regards,
Ron


Edited by opuslola - 22 Mar 2011 at 19:13
Back to Top
drgonzaga View Drop Down
King
King
Avatar
Plus Ultra

Joined: 01 Oct 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 6262
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Mar 2011 at 22:59
Opuslola I must with some regret state that you are becoming not only a bit stale but treading a very thin line that is threatening to snap.
Honi soit qui mal y pense
Back to Top
Seko- View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar

Joined: 01 Sep 2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 11725
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Seko- Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Mar 2011 at 23:42
No use talking sense to him Doc. It appears that he is fixated on the printed press and poo poos anything to do with carbon dating, primary sources on papyrus, rock, paper, or any other fiber used to jot down notes that existed prior to the 12th century. 

Edited by Seko - 23 Mar 2011 at 00:08
Back to Top
Seko- View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar

Joined: 01 Sep 2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 11725
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Seko- Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Mar 2011 at 23:44
oh and btw, the topic...Yes I pick Plato for pure hedonistic reading pleasure. Who needs oracles when father Socrates was bound to counsel the youth of Athens. 
Back to Top
opuslola View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 22 Feb 2011
Location: MS, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 1009
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Mar 2011 at 01:29
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Opuslola I must with some regret state that you are becoming not only a bit stale but treading a very thin line that is threatening to snap.
But, I thought my ideas were "welcome" here?
 
Perhaps the language of the "welcome" was some how perverted?
 
There seems to be "Perverts", most every where?
 
Regards,
 
Ron
Back to Top
Seko- View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar

Joined: 01 Sep 2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 11725
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Seko- Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Mar 2011 at 01:36
alright that's it...OFFICIAL WARNING time!


Back to Top
opuslola View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 22 Feb 2011
Location: MS, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 1009
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Mar 2011 at 02:16
Yes, I receive the said notice via PM!  And I responded in kind.
 
So, I just hope that all of us can again come together in "words"?
 
Perhaps my conversion of the name "Seko" to "Sucko" caused it?Embarrassed
 
Regards'

Ron
Back to Top
drgonzaga View Drop Down
King
King
Avatar
Plus Ultra

Joined: 01 Oct 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 6262
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Mar 2011 at 15:22
No it did not and it is regrettable that you make "light" of the historical simply for the purpose of pursuing a type of superficial gamesmanship masquerading as "ideas". Notions have little to do with Ideas be it within the constructs of Philosophy or of History. Certainly even with the context of informed opinion the postings that have gotten you into trouble fall remarkably short in that respect. Since I am an "old dog" when it comes to the history of participants in Net Forums--going back to the days of Usenet and its successor WIT in the early 90s and platforms such as Delphi by the end of that decade--I am adept at identifying flame warriors engaged in practices that are little more than exercises in narcissism. Ideas are welcome here insofar as they respect the methodology of History and are founded upon sound interpretation of the records that serve as its meat-and-bone. One does not have to be a "titled" historian to appreciate History but one must still display a level of competence in discussing the available records.
 
By the way, Henry Ford actually said "History is more or less bunk" (published in the Chicago Tribune, 25 May 1916) but his understanding of History was more or less sophomoric in that he equated the discipline with Tradition. If you require further elucidation as to why historians are fond of that little blurb then visit the blog maintained by Professor Jonathan Reese of Colorado State's History Department.
 
 
If you need to analyze further why the "traditional" has little room in History then you could do no worse than read Dr. Reese's latest book:
 
Representation and Rebellion: The Rockefeller Plan at the Colorado Fuel and Iron Company, 1914-1942
 
Why you can even get it as a Kindle!
 
 
Honi soit qui mal y pense
Back to Top
opuslola View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 22 Feb 2011
Location: MS, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 1009
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Mar 2011 at 17:11
Thanks for the correction, I actually knew it was incorrect when I used it, and finally someone actually caught it.  But, it was "more or less" correct. 
 
So, perhaps I shall post a new one, the one by Thomas Carlyle that I have used but once on this site.  But, it seems I have a lot of choices;
 
 
Again, my apology to both you and Seko!
 
Regards,
Ron


Edited by opuslola - 23 Mar 2011 at 17:40
Back to Top
gcle2003 View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar
PM Honorary Member

Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Location: Luxembourg
Status: Offline
Points: 13262
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Mar 2011 at 20:24
I make it nine quotes from Carlyle on that page. Which one did you have in mind?
Citizen of Ankh-Morpork.

Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.

Back to Top
opuslola View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 22 Feb 2011
Location: MS, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 1009
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Mar 2011 at 22:21
Yes, exactly.

Nine to choose from, and I did not even consider the possiblilty of using one of the others not from Caryle.

But, Carlyle is not exactly a person that many admire.

Perhaps, I should pick and choose from some of the other?

But, you seem to know me well, which one do you feel best represents me, from the list of Caryle?

I would be happy if you were to provide me with a suitable tag.

Regards,
Ron

Edited by opuslola - 23 Mar 2011 at 22:22
Back to Top
Akolouthos View Drop Down
Moderator
Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 24 Feb 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 3526
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Akolouthos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Oct 2011 at 15:47
Bump. Wink
 
I'd be interested to get the opinions of some of our newer members on this topic.
 
-Akolouthos
Back to Top
Akhenaton View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 10 Jun 2013
Location: MA
Status: Offline
Points: 3
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Akhenaton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jun 2013 at 18:10
Plato dealt with Forms, while Aristotle dealt more with the physical world (everything you can see, smell, touch).  I feel Aristotle was working for the elite and corrupted the ancient teachings.  Plato, who was outraged over the death of his teacher, cried out against the ruling class, and therefore much more credible.
Back to Top
Lao Tse View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar
Editorial Staff

Joined: 20 Jun 2012
Location: Louisville, KY
Status: Offline
Points: 678
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lao Tse Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jun 2013 at 21:12
I vote other.
I believe more in the Confucian philosophy than Plato's or Aristotle's, it just makes more sense to me
在財富的害處,而是一件好事永遠不持續。我在和平中仅居住在新的風下。 Wei Jia Hong No harm in wealth, but a good thing doesn't last forever. I live only among peace under
Back to Top
Akolouthos View Drop Down
Moderator
Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 24 Feb 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 3526
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Akolouthos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jun 2013 at 01:47
How is that so, Lao Tse? I'm not criticizing; just interested in getting another perspective.

-Akolouthos
Back to Top
Lao Tse View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar
Editorial Staff

Joined: 20 Jun 2012
Location: Louisville, KY
Status: Offline
Points: 678
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lao Tse Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jun 2013 at 05:16
Well, I think it's just because I was raised that way, and like all philosophies, it has its own idea of a perfect society, which my family drove through my head over the years. Confucianism is still one of the strongest philosophies on the planet, and it kept society (at least where I grew up) extremely stable, even in the hardest of times. While Plato's The Republic does show that the people should have the power, Zhongni (Confucius) and his Annals changed China from a country with ethics that were remaining from the fallen Shang Kingdom and the Legalistic ideals of Qin (although Confucius died before the end of Zhou, his Annals survived the wrath of Qin Legalism), to a society that, although often collapsing and reforming, became one of the most complex societies on Earth. Confucianism, unlike many other societies (such as Rome or Greece BEFORE Plato or Aristotle in existence), is not based on quantities of money, but more on occupation and education. Example: Merchants are at the lowest class because they often lack in education, but they are often the richest people in the country other than Officials. Yet, Scholars and public officials (meaning the lower of government officials, usually on the City or County level) are some of the highest in the social system, but have less money than the merchants and local traders. The Confucian social system is extremely complicated, and it is often based on ability (Example: one part of the Civil Examinations that all scholars must take if they want to be able to hold government office without having to marry into a noble family is the Calligraphic portion, the person must copy the Thousand Character Essay using their best calligraphy, and in all styles {Da and Xiao Zhuan, Li, Xing, Cao, and Kai Shu}, meaning that the essay is really 7000 different characters), and each caste is subdivided by age and ability. As a child, I knew that I was going to be the one who had to pass the idea of a perfect Confucian society on to the next generation, and although I disagree with Confucian ideals about women being lesser than men, I passed the rest of the ideals on (leaving out the woman's role in Confucian society, in light of I moved to America, and I had to keep spirits up for my daughter), and the family still remains Confucian Taoist, although it is a little old fashioned for the younger generations LOL.
在財富的害處,而是一件好事永遠不持續。我在和平中仅居住在新的風下。 Wei Jia Hong No harm in wealth, but a good thing doesn't last forever. I live only among peace under
Back to Top
Bearskin View Drop Down
Janissary
Janissary


Joined: 02 Nov 2013
Status: Offline
Points: 18
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bearskin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Nov 2013 at 02:11
One very valuable thing the Greeks taught us is that everything is cognisable to human reason. Aristotle exemplifies that quality perfectly.

Although a poor scholar I still derive from Aristotle’s logic of language and argument. Even as a schoolboy I was familiar with Latinized concepts such as circulus in demonstrando, modus ponens/ tollens and syllogisms.
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <12
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 11.10
Copyright ©2001-2017 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.125 seconds.