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Population density

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literaryClarity View Drop Down
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    Posted: 03 Jun 2015 at 04:36
What are the various correlations to it?  Wealth, disease, poverty, amenities, taxes, popular destination and sites.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_proper_by_population_density

Manila with a population of 1.6 mil with the highest population density of 110 k residents per square mile at 14 sq miles.  If you do the math and everyone was out in the open that would be about seeing another person every 15 feet you walk.

Shanghai, the most populous city in China at the density of 10 k residents per square mile means you'd see another person every 52 feet if everyone in the city was out in the open.
http://hwyst.hangzhou.com.cn/wmyzh/content/2013-10/09/content_4920423.htm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wolfhnd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jun 2015 at 05:39
It seems to me there are two poles for high population density, a teaming slum and a luxury highrise.  What makes them very different is privacy.  Modern mans desire for privacy is hard to understand in light of our almost certain lack there of for most of human evolution.  We seem to go crazy if we are too isolated as illustrated by "Prairie madness" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prairie_madness but crowding seems to have less obvious but significant impact on our mental health Overcrowding in the Home: An Empirical Investigation of Its Possible Pathological Consequences  http://www.jstor.org/stable/2094818?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents .  As illustrated in the article on overcrowding the significant factor is privacy not population density.

Our need for privacy demonstrates an interesting lack of correlation between what is "natural" and what is healthy.  We desire companionship like we crave sugar but it seems to much of a "good thing" is not advisable. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote literaryClarity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jun 2015 at 06:07
I can't honestly believe that what is "natural" was so completely devoid of a deliberate effort to design solutions to overturn some of the very obvious societal problems that occurs at the level of distinction where large and populous societies are concerned; in areas of harmonizing the economics to rendering obsolete the hate between tribal groups and that sort of thing.

What we often see as healthy is merely an emotional projection and response of our psyche trying to protect itself.  Therefore healthy eating creates the demand for healthy foods and the such while society creates the image for you that some foods are very unhealthy.  So people eat healthy only to balance the unhealthy which is kind of anachronistic to the problem of correlating solutions by creation of society and societal development.

However I am not trying to get into philosophical discussing per se.  I would like to discuss more on the matters of correlation between population density and the various aspects of society which have extended out of it.


Edited by literaryClarity - 03 Jun 2015 at 06:08
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wolfhnd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jun 2015 at 06:18
Originally posted by literaryClarity literaryClarity wrote:

I can't honestly believe that what is "natural" was so completely devoid of a deliberate effort to design solutions to overturn some of the very obvious societal problems that occurs at the level of distinction where large and populous societies are concerned; in areas of harmonizing the economics to rendering obsolete the hate between tribal groups and that sort of thing.


Excellent point in so far as culture evolves the question is how deliberate it is.  While I tried to find a "science" reference it is unfortunately going to require what may be considered philosophy to answer some aspects of this question.

Did you read the paper? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote literaryClarity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jun 2015 at 06:40
Society in the form of different cities has statistics attached to it.  You can realize these statistics by googling them.  No need for fancy smancy philosophy.

Edited by literaryClarity - 03 Jun 2015 at 06:42
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote literaryClarity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jun 2015 at 06:46
What a nonsensical red herring.  My question was not in so far as culture evolves how much of it is deliberate.  In so far that it can be deliberate is de facto deliberate.  But because you made it sound vaguely absolute that the concept of a natural society begs the question of whether it was healthy or not it became this metaphysical pursuit of some truth called "society" and "natural" and "healthy".  And I already stated I'm not going into philosophy so why beat on the dead horse unless you have an ax to grind.  The question that I ask is what correlations are drawn to the enterprise of population density.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wolfhnd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jun 2015 at 15:38
I wasn't speaking so much to society but the need of individuals for privacy.   Any reference to "natural" relates to the environment in which humans evolved prior to what we call civilization.  It is important to understand that physical and cultural evolution cannot be separated when considering human evolution.

I would take a look at this link.
  

Perspectives on Cultural Evolution, by Daniel C. Dennett


P.S.  There is no need to throw insults around by suggesting "red herrings" where there are none.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote literaryClarity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jun 2015 at 19:58
You stated living together was a natural outgrowth of some natural longing and cited prairie madness as a reflection of that innate need.  Then you made that into a strawman by saying but people who are crowded together suffer but in somewhat invisible ways.  You created a strawman fallacy out of the argument for population density to talk about something else, privacy, and then on top of that you added in an additional layer of cultural evolution.  So in each post you are just evading the actual topic of population density.

Nobody who talks about the topic of population density sets forth the argument that privacy is taken out of the equation because neither taking it out nor putting it in makes a case of population density.  A completely sparse population can still evidence the family and home setting which is crowded.  And a slum population which has residents crowded into homeless shelters may actually be the result of a terrible tragedy of a freak natural occurence.

So therefore your ideas haven't even bothered to touch "population density" because you are busy illustrating extremes of privacy, non privacy, cultural and psychological evolution, nature, individuality, and various other paradigms which have nothing to do with the topic.

It would be like if a person created a topic on HD screens and correlations to competitive component pricing, market saturation, branding, and entertainment but you decided to call into question the paradigms of communicating views between people but isolating them to digital archives. What?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wolfhnd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jun 2015 at 05:06
The strawman you are looking for doesn't exist.  The psychological effects of high population density is relevant to your topic.  I was talking about privacy but it is not so much about not being observed but about being disturbed or agitated.  While I'm no expert on the subject I do have some experience with noise mitigation.  Privacy and noise are just two areas of urban planning but there are many other concerns for planners. 

One of the paradoxical aspects of privacy in high population density populations is the feeling of getting "lost in the crowd".  It's not just a psychological issue however as anonymity is a practical concern as well.  It effects behavior in a variety of ways, one of the most obvious is the loss of inhibition where people behave in antisocial ways they would not in smaller communities.

The standard of living in a high population density environment is highly dependent on proper planning and regulation. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fantasus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jun 2015 at 08:38
Population issues are both important and relevant.Yet both the OP and this discussion appear to me to get somewhat on an odd and problematic path. If we take the OP literally, then it only asks for some statistics about cities of the World. On the other hand: why raise those questions at all on a worldhistoria forum if not for shedding some ligth upon broader population issues (like is there anything to "overpopulation" - or "unmderpopulation"). That is of course only guesswork on my part.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wolfhnd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jun 2015 at 09:41
I have to admit that I had no idea what the OP was about and assumed that it requested thoughts on the challenges of providing the highest possible standard of living in densely populated settings.

I have had some professional involvement in urban planning where catch phrases like livable cities were thrown about.  I never felt however that anyone really knew the fundamental human requirements for living happily in a crowded city.  Planners talk of green spaces, public transportation, security and walkability but the subject of privacy never came up.  Do we really know what kind of environment people really want?  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote literaryClarity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jun 2015 at 20:54
Quote
 I was talking about privacy but it is not so much about not being observed but about being disturbed or agitated.


Still irrelevant to the scope of the topic.  It's like saying the effects of hydration are inclusive of vibrational sensations as the water enters into the body.  What?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote literaryClarity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jun 2015 at 21:02
Fantasus hello I am asking a question in the OP if you haven't noticed.  I cited the simple arithmetic and statistics as a reflection on the reality of the spatial dimensions of interaction.  I'm neither talking about prairie madness or slum shelters as some other person who went on a tanget.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fantasus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 2015 at 06:37
Originally posted by literaryClarity literaryClarity wrote:

Fantasus hello I am asking a question in the OP if you haven't noticed.  I cited the simple arithmetic and statistics as a reflection on the reality of the spatial dimensions of interaction.  I'm neither talking about prairie madness or slum shelters as some other person who went on a tanget.
Yes, I noticed. But in a later post You wrote those figures can be found by googling.
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Originally posted by wolfhnd wolfhnd wrote:

I have to admit that I had no idea what the OP was about and assumed that it requested thoughts on the challenges of providing the highest possible standard of living in densely populated settings.

I have had some professional involvement in urban planning where catch phrases like livable cities were thrown about.  I never felt however that anyone really knew the fundamental human requirements for living happily in a crowded city.  Planners talk of green spaces, public transportation, security and walkability but the subject of privacy never came up.  Do we really know what kind of environment people really want?  

Some say that our evolutionary background drives our desires for habitat. An attachment to nature, associating with small groups that parallel a tribal grouping, etc., would be appealing when presented in a modernized, abstract form. 

On the other hand, some some seem to have adapted quite well to the environment they find themselves in. The '60s style, dispersed, auto oriented, strip mall society has its fans. Perhaps some grow up in these environments, and if they associate happy memories with it, and find it appealing. 

My guess is that the former is more likely than the latter. Surveys of some of the most mainstream, auto oriented urban areas often suggest many would move out if that were a viable option. On the other hand, the "livable" cities can get high ratings.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote literaryClarity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jun 2015 at 01:46
Fantasus exactly, that's the point.  Googling the statistics means you can get the information about cities online.  What's the point of philosophizing about the statistics when they are right under your nose.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote literaryClarity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jun 2015 at 05:18
In searching about population density and longevity I found a paper which I'll not post here less it be misinterpreted and the authors degraded upon like so many papers I've placed as evidence in forums.  But in case you want to you can always search for those terms together namely population density and longevity and fruit flies.

But consider the fact that density creates a positive stress factor in the individuals of the subjects such that in later generations they will have evolved to become adapted to those "problem areas" of society listed such as disease, or age related problems simply because a competitive society and more socially active society requires a more active brain into old age.  However the background problems are shifted ever more into the background, such as the susceptibility to high uncertainty tolerance such that individuals may find themselves reproducing less as their mortality rates reduce and longevity increases.  In tribal societies where density is not secured the people tend to be aggressive and try to reproduce as much as possible to counter infant mortality to allow for acceptable population replacement rates.
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PJ O'Rourke once wrote an article about population density and Bangladesh.  He said, that it wasn't because of population density that Bangladesh was screwed up.  It was because the leadership class had disappeared twice in the 20th century, first when the British pulled out, and second when Bangladesh (formerly East Pakistan) broke away from (West) Pakistan.  If you want to look at population, look at Singapore (or Hong Kong, or New York, or London), cities that have a fairly dense population, but also a relatively high standard of living.  Of course, for every Tokyo, there is a Cairo or a Mexico City.  But, the point is, is that a high population density in itself is not necessarily the kiss of death.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fantasus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jun 2015 at 07:15
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

PJ O'Rourke once wrote an article about population density and Bangladesh.  He said, that it wasn't because of population density that Bangladesh was screwed up.  It was because the leadership class had disappeared twice in the 20th century, first when the British pulled out, and second when Bangladesh (formerly East Pakistan) broke away from (West) Pakistan.  If you want to look at population, look at Singapore (or Hong Kong, or New York, or London), cities that have a fairly dense population, but also a relatively high standard of living.  Of course, for every Tokyo, there is a Cairo or a Mexico City.  But, the point is, is that a high population density in itself is not necessarily the kiss of death.
Don´t forget cities get there ressources from elsewhere, and most likely spread their vaste over much bigger areas. almost by definition a city is a place wherethe food and other necessities come from outside.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fantasus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jun 2015 at 07:32
Originally posted by literaryClarity literaryClarity wrote:

In searching about population density and longevity I found a paper which I'll not post here less it be misinterpreted and the authors degraded upon like so many papers I've placed as evidence in forums. 
Frankly: What are we to do with such a remark? You open a discussion - or, no - ít is not really in the open?
Originally posted by literaryClarity literaryClarity wrote:


But in case you want to you can always search for those terms together namely population density and longevity and fruit flies.

But consider the fact that density creates a positive stress factor in the individuals of the subjects such that in later generations they will have evolved to become adapted to those "problem areas" of society listed such as disease, or age related problems simply because a competitive society and more socially active society requires a more active brain into old age.  However the background problems are shifted ever more into the background, such as the susceptibility to high uncertainty tolerance such that individuals may find themselves reproducing less as their mortality rates reduce and longevity increases.  In tribal societies where density is not secured the people tend to be aggressive and try to reproduce as much as possible to counter infant mortality to allow for acceptable population replacement rates.
We may speculate so, but I have never seen any documentation that old people in very densely settled areas have a more active brain.´
For non-"tribal" societies with fairly low population average densities I have not seen evidence they are particularly aggressive or that people live shorter lives than elsewhere. It may very well be it is different for fruit flies, but at least we may agree that the later are quite different from humans.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote literaryClarity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jun 2015 at 07:41
It was open in the way a thread was supposed to be but the post after the opening post sort of mutated the scaffolding for discussion to become more philosophical than I really wanted.  I ended up going along with it because it seems there's no way but to go with the flow.

As to the speculation, yea I agree that the fruit fly experiment was really interpretational.  It is a bit of a stretch to take fruit fly experiments and apply to human cities.  But humans can't be experimented upon so I guess that's why they used fruit flies.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote literaryClarity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jun 2015 at 07:48
I sort of wanted a discussion where a city is given its specs, such as Tokyo, citing its most dense critical areas and then evaluate it.  I didn't want an evaluation of social paradigms per se.

For example I stated that for Manila and Shanghai, the two most populous cities of their respective countries have a certain landmass holding a certain density and what it means.  It means bumping into a person every so and so meters.  The relative differences ought to have some measurable correlation such that we can chart them and make projections.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fantasus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jun 2015 at 12:54
Originally posted by literaryClarity literaryClarity wrote:

I sort of wanted a discussion where a city is given its specs, such as Tokyo, citing its most dense critical areas and then evaluate it.  I didn't want an evaluation of social paradigms per se.

For example I stated that for Manila and Shanghai, the two most populous cities of their respective countries have a certain landmass holding a certain density and what it means.  It means bumping into a person every so and so meters.  The relative differences ought to have some measurable correlation such that we can chart them and make projections.
On the other hand we can ask how much we can rely upon such sorts ofd statistics. I am not so sure it will can not be misleading in many ways. If people commute it may appear the areas of residence are very densely populated. It could very well be most of them don´t live much of their time there, but most only sleep there and go other Places for Work, studies, shopping, hobbies and hollidays. Probably more the wealthier the population is.
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http://www.crystalinks.com/romeroads.html

In 450 BC Julius Ceasar enacted the "Laws of the Twelve Tables." These laws defined the method and specifics for building roads as well as outlining who could use the roads and at what time of day.

There were foot paths for most people but commerce was done at night so that people could travel on foot over the viae during the day. It seems being trampled to death was a concern.

So you had literally a city that never slept. The noise would have been constant. It was so heavily populated that the activity within the city had to be controlled in order to get all the work done.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Captain Vancouver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jun 2015 at 17:10
Originally posted by literaryClarity literaryClarity wrote:

It was open in the way a thread was supposed to be but the post after the opening post sort of mutated the scaffolding for discussion to become more philosophical than I really wanted.  I ended up going along with it because it seems there's no way but to go with the flow.

As to the speculation, yea I agree that the fruit fly experiment was really interpretational.  It is a bit of a stretch to take fruit fly experiments and apply to human cities.  But humans can't be experimented upon so I guess that's why they used fruit flies.

I'm not sure how you can avoid "philosophical" discussion on a topic such as this, as urban design has huge implications for social interactions, psychological status, and even political outcomes.

Many, I suspect, simply look at the present day status quo in cities, and assume that is normal, the logical product of progress. Our urban environment is however a subjective thing, and open to varied opinion. There is no natural law that says things must be as they are, and I'd wager that in the future, our norms will be challenged and changed.

Density, as remarked on here, can take on wildly different forms. Chinatown in  Bangkok can assume sci-fi like aspects in its noise and bustle. The West End neighbourhood in Vancouver, with about 50,000 in a square mile, can be so quite one can nod off while sitting on a bench on the street.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote literaryClarity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jun 2015 at 23:32
Fantasus You have to rely on the statistics.  That's basically a given.  The data has to be analyzed to reveal some truth.  That's not equal to I must put my assumptions on the data before looking at the data.  Population density is not going to be all those various things just one of those things you mentioned otherwise the data will just be uncertain and unusable.  It is almost certain that the population density I'm talking about is referring to permanent residency and not people who visit the city and shop and study and then walk around and then leave the next day.

Captain Vancouver I don't know what you mean when you say social interactions, psychological status and political outcomes.  Because when I say the social interaction of a high population density compared to a low population density is really different, that is not merely philosophical.  Such a phenomenon can be observed and measured.  For example one can obtain the statistic for the number of businesses where there are tables where one sits down across another person or in other words the number of restaurants, cafes, bars as opposed to local grocery stores where you buy and take home to individual preparation and consumption.
http://hwyst.hangzhou.com.cn/wmyzh/content/2013-10/09/content_4920423.htm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fantasus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jun 2015 at 06:23
Originally posted by literaryClarity literaryClarity wrote:

Fantasus You have to rely on the statistics. 
Sorry, but I think we can only rely on statistics to some degree. One of the few Things I learned about science experiments in Scholl is that one should note possible sources of error.
And when I think about it there is a lot of such problems to statistics of population density.

Originally posted by literaryClarity literaryClarity wrote:


Population density is not going to be all those various things just one of those things you mentioned otherwise the data will just be uncertain and unusable.  It is almost certain that the population density I'm talking about is referring to permanent residency and not people who visit the city and shop and study and then walk around and then leave the next day.
But You seem to forget than in many parts of the World, even Texas I guess, a lot of people move over substancial distances every day. I think the statistics as You say will only mentiion one thing: where people "reside". That is their postal adress. But that adress is not necessarily where they are during most of the day. Especially not in "industrialised" regions. So You can not be so sure those statistics of population density in Residential areas are good indicatotors of how crowded ones eperience is in "real life".



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote literaryClarity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jun 2015 at 06:36
But there are correlations to it.  The indication of residency at so and so number of apartments per hectare for example is a kind of data you would use to understand the amount of energy an area would require and the kinds of wealth exchange due to stable price structure of marketed goods and services.  Things like medical care and taxes used to pay for it, or public landmarks designed to attract tourists to become new residences.  These are interrelated to one specific statistic, population density.  People going to work in a more crowded setting or much less crowded setting isn't going to remove all the correlations of what made a city livable for a certain population density.
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