| FORUM | ARCHIVE |                    | TOTAL QUIZ RESULT |


  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Pre-Celtic Language Hypothesis
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login


Welcome stranger, click here to read about some of the great benefits of registering for a free account with us and joining us in our global online community.


Pre-Celtic Language Hypothesis

 Post Reply Post Reply
Author
Viewpoint View Drop Down
Housecarl
Housecarl


Joined: 20 Oct 2014
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 34
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Viewpoint Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Pre-Celtic Language Hypothesis
    Posted: 20 Oct 2014 at 15:18
There has been much speculation about what was spoken in Britain before the Celts, and I think that I have a possible theory. The sheep counting numbers known as "yan, tan, tethera" (four is "methera") or "North Country Score" which are supposedly purely Brythonic, are surprisingly different from Welsh, which begins "un, dau, tri, pedwar". The equivalent numbers in Hittite are "as, dan, teries, meyawes". Burushaski, which may be an Anatolian language like Hittite begins "hin, altan". Could it be that early farmers who spoke an archaic form of Proto-Celtic which retained many Anatolian features were the first people in Britain, and probably the builders of Stonehenge? I have thought what the language could be called, and my best idea is "Pre-Celtic British". What are your thoughts, guys and girls?
Back to Top
Sponsored Links


Back to Top
Alburz View Drop Down
Samurai
Samurai
Avatar
Shogun

Joined: 20 Oct 2014
Status: Offline
Points: 135
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Alburz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Oct 2014 at 19:19
What was the language of Picts up in North Britannia? Doesn't it predate welsh or Celtic? Btw, Burushaski is from Gilgit area up in North Pakistan not Anatolia! Early Celt may have migrated from Anatolia but you are talking about people prior to Celt so you may need to look for other sources such as Basque or other isolated languages which are closer to Britannia and predate Celtic expansion.
Back to Top
Viewpoint View Drop Down
Housecarl
Housecarl


Joined: 20 Oct 2014
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 34
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Viewpoint Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Oct 2014 at 10:40
Professor Ilija Casule of Macquarie University, Australia reckons that Burushaski is part of the Anatolian family of languages ( I didn't say it is found in present day Anatolia, my geography isn't that bad )
Back to Top
toyomotor View Drop Down
Moderator
Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 15 Feb 2014
Location: Tasmania, AUST.
Status: Offline
Points: 4905
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Oct 2014 at 06:45
Originally posted by Viewpoint Viewpoint wrote:

There has been much speculation about what was spoken in Britain before the Celts, and I think that I have a possible theory. The sheep counting numbers known as "yan, tan, tethera" (four is "methera") or "North Country Score" which are supposedly purely Brythonic, are surprisingly different from Welsh, which begins "un, dau, tri, pedwar". The equivalent numbers in Hittite are "as, dan, teries, meyawes". Burushaski, which may be an Anatolian language like Hittite begins "hin, altan". Could it be that early farmers who spoke an archaic form of Proto-Celtic which retained many Anatolian features were the first people in Britain, and probably the builders of Stonehenge? I have thought what the language could be called, and my best idea is "Pre-Celtic British". What are your thoughts, guys and girls?


I've always thought that the tribes of England spoke a Brythonic language.

When do you suggest that they spoke a Celtic language, and for how long?

Don't forget, the population of Ireland was from the UK and North Western Europe, not the other way round.
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.
Back to Top
Viewpoint View Drop Down
Housecarl
Housecarl


Joined: 20 Oct 2014
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 34
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Viewpoint Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Oct 2014 at 18:53
The Celtic languages are divided into two groups: Goidelic comprises Irish, Scots Gaelic and Manx, and Brythonic comprises Welsh, Cornish and Breton
Back to Top
toyomotor View Drop Down
Moderator
Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 15 Feb 2014
Location: Tasmania, AUST.
Status: Offline
Points: 4905
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Oct 2014 at 03:00
Originally posted by Viewpoint Viewpoint wrote:

The Celtic languages are divided into two groups: Goidelic comprises Irish, Scots Gaelic and Manx, and Brythonic comprises Welsh, Cornish and Breton


But is Brythonic a "Celtic" language?

If it is, what language was spoken prior to Brythonic?
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.
Back to Top
ZoeRPM View Drop Down
Janissary
Janissary
Avatar

Joined: 18 Dec 2014
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 30
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote ZoeRPM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Dec 2014 at 11:52
That's a good point. The Turks have had such a successful time in Anatolia that they have more-or-less wiped out any evidence of previous occupations. 

Another group of words to examine are the names of rivers in Europe, which are clearly old enough to predate the arrival of the Celts or, indeed any other Indo-European peoples, in Europe. The problem with languages such as Basque are that they have borrowed extensively from Indo-European and from Arabic. You need to remove these borrowed words from the vocabulary before any analysis can be made.
Zoe Bremer, BSc. (Hons.)
England
Back to Top
toyomotor View Drop Down
Moderator
Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 15 Feb 2014
Location: Tasmania, AUST.
Status: Offline
Points: 4905
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Dec 2014 at 11:59
Originally posted by ZoeRPM ZoeRPM wrote:

That's a good point. The Turks have had such a successful time in Anatolia that they have more-or-less wiped out any evidence of previous occupations. 

Another group of words to examine are the names of rivers in Europe, which are clearly old enough to predate the arrival of the Celts or, indeed any other Indo-European peoples, in Europe. The problem with languages such as Basque are that they have borrowed extensively from Indo-European and from Arabic. You need to remove these borrowed words from the vocabulary before any analysis can be made.


Thanks Zoe, and welcome to World Historia.

I'm currently reading "The Wheel, the Horse and Language" by David W. Anthony, but haven't found reference yet to the pre-Celtic Languages.

Btw, did Basque "borrow" from IE or was it an IE language to start with, and then borrow from Celtic?

It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.
Back to Top
Viewpoint View Drop Down
Housecarl
Housecarl


Joined: 20 Oct 2014
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 34
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Viewpoint Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jan 2018 at 10:40
Since I first made this post, a couple of things have happened. Firstly, genetics have proved beyond all reasonable doubt that all of the "modern" Indo-European languages come from the steppe. Secondly, like most people in Britain, I was completely unaware of the existence of early Welsh historical records and the writings of Adrian Gilbert, Alan Wilson and Baram Blackett. To cut a long story short, it is recorded in the Brut Tysilio and other writings that Brutus of Troy travelled to Britain by sea, and settled with a large army around 1170BC. At the time the Trojans spoke Luwian, which is an Anatolian language closely related to Hittite. Alan Wilson has come in for a fair amount of academic flak; all I can say is that I believe the evidence to be entirely consistent with his findings. It seems likely that there was a pre-celtic seaborne invasion from Anatolia; whether it happened in exactly 1170BC and whether its leader was called Brutus is less certain.
Back to Top
toyomotor View Drop Down
Moderator
Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 15 Feb 2014
Location: Tasmania, AUST.
Status: Offline
Points: 4905
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jan 2018 at 12:46
But it's now argued by scholars that Wales, Ireland, Cornwall and Brittany were not necessarily populated by invasions of Celts, but more likely a wave of migrations.

Scotland, as you would know, was a Pictish country, with their own Pictish lagnguage, that it until the Irish began settling there between 400AD and 1000AD and essentally tooke up the Roman Occupation as they left. The Scots brought Christianity to Scotland, and of course a semblance of Irish Gaelic Language.

The Basques, btw, are Celts, but with a unique language, but nevertheless an afficity with the Irish.

Some scholars will argue that the heimat of the Celts was on the Iberian Peninsula, while others argue, and with truck loads of evidence, that they originated on the Pontic Steppe, which, coincientally, has also been identified as the birthplace of the Proto Indo/European Languages. Evidence of this may be adduced by the spread of the Corded Ware culture's crockery, as well as the Bell Beaker pots etc. which originated, again, in the Steppe Region.

It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.
Back to Top
toyomotor View Drop Down
Moderator
Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 15 Feb 2014
Location: Tasmania, AUST.
Status: Offline
Points: 4905
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jan 2018 at 12:47
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

But it's now argued by scholars that Wales, Ireland, Cornwall and Brittany were not necessarily populated by invasions of Celts, but more likely a wave of migrations.

Scotland, as you would know, was a Pictish country, with their own Pictish lagnguage, that it until the Irish began settling there between 400AD and 1000AD and essentally tooke up the Roman Occupation as they left. The Scots brought Christianity to Scotland, and of course a semblance of Irish Gaelic Language.

The Basques, btw, are Celts, but with a unique language, but nevertheless an affinity with the Irish.

Some scholars will argue that the heimat of the Celts was on the Iberian Peninsula, while others argue, and with truck loads of evidence, that they originated on the Pontic Steppe, which, coincientally, has also been identified as the birthplace of the Proto Indo/European Languages. Evidence of this may be adduced by the spread of the Corded Ware culture's crockery, as well as the Bell Beaker pots etc. which originated, again, in the Steppe Region.

It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.
Back to Top
Viewpoint View Drop Down
Housecarl
Housecarl


Joined: 20 Oct 2014
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 34
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Viewpoint Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jan 2018 at 18:20
This certainly makes sense to me, toyomotor. I've read a bit about the period, and I think I understand the situation a bit better. In those days, sea travel was far easier than land travel. There was a period of time when several of the civilisations of the eastern Mediterranean suffered a dramatic downturn, known as the "Bronze Age Collapse". The reasons for this are not fully understood, but seem to have been mainly economic with some climatic factors. The "Sea People" were at their height at this time, and there seem to have been large numbers of adventurers with a sea faring tradition and nothing much to lose. The Mediterranean must have appeared to them as a long strip of sea with the coastal land either side well settled and well defended. If they chose to look further north, beyond the Balkans and the Alps, they were faced with a long journey, bitterly cold winters and very hostile tribes. If they looked south beyond the coastal regions, there was just empty desert. It made sense to keep on sailing, through the pillars of Hercules, and turn northwards to islands they had vaguely heard of which were less strongly defended and where the climate was relatively benign. It seems that France was an interesting country at that time, a natural "pass" between the Alps and the Pyrenees. Travellers could advance up the Rhone valley towards the flat lands of northern France. There is a lot of quasi-romantic writings about that time, talk of "pure bloodlines" and "direct descent" from one or another group or individual. That aside, it seems clear to me that there was a strong and continuous admixture from the near east affecting the whole of southern and western Europe, with only the Balts and northern Slavs having any claim to have remained separate.
Back to Top
toyomotor View Drop Down
Moderator
Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 15 Feb 2014
Location: Tasmania, AUST.
Status: Offline
Points: 4905
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jan 2018 at 02:03
Viewpoint

Quote This certainly makes sense to me, toyomotor. I've read a bit about the period, and I think I understand the situation a bit better. In those days, sea travel was far easier than land travel.


Not necessarily. Everyone had access to feet, some had horses and, if you lived near the sea, you possibly had a boat.

The Silk Road played a large part in the movement of people, language and customs. I believe that the Celts originated in the Pontic Steppe region,many migrated to the Iberian Peninsula, from where they moved onward to Brittany in France, a short sea hop to England(Wales) and another to Ireland.

I'm not sure if there is evidence of Celts being in Wales before Ireland.

But, back to language, the proto Indo/European languages (PIE) originated in the steppe region, and spread throughout parts of Asia, Europe and so on.

You will read about the "Corded Ware" and "Bell Beaker" cultures-so named after the shape of pottery produced, mainly by their women. These vessels have been found in many parts of Europe. No one really knows how they got there, by traders, women married to passing traders, or movement by whole groups. If it was the latter, IMHO, it would be reasonable to assume that they also took their language, which, over time would have given rise to "loan words" in either their own language or the language of their new surrounds.

So, pre-Celtic languages would have been based on the PIE, whether they be Pictish or other. In some parts of Europe, such as Scandinavia and Russia, the language may have strayed further from the PIE that say Turkish. I'm not an expert on these matters, but having read about them, I believe that the countries which have a strong Celtic past, would probably spoken a dialect of Pictish prior to the arrival of the Celts.

It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.
Back to Top
Viewpoint View Drop Down
Housecarl
Housecarl


Joined: 20 Oct 2014
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 34
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Viewpoint Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jan 2018 at 14:48
I think both routes played a part in forming the cultures which have been regarded as Celtic. There was the land route along the Danube valley, from there both up the Rhine and south-west into Gaul and Spain, and the sea route up the west coast of Europe. I think that Barry Cunliffe has a point, i.e. a maritime lingua franca formed, which absorbed elements of other languages, for which the best candidates are Berber and Basque. Interestingly, what we know about Gaulish is quite a lot different from the insular Celtic languages, the word "toutios" for tribe shows an Indo-European type inflection, "tuath" the same word in Irish, seems slangy and influenced by another language. You're not he first person to think that Basque is connected to the Indo-European languages; Gianfranco Forni has a theory on those lines, and John T Koch, a very respected linguist thinks that it is certainly possible. Colin Renfrew's Anatolian Hypothesis has taken a battering, but parts of it may still be standing. It seems, at least for southern and western Europe that farming wasn't introduced by either the "modern" Indo-European languages or the Anatolian languages (which don't seem to have spread north of the Balkans in continental Europe), but by languages such as Basque and Etruscan, seemingly coming much earlier from Anatolia and spoken by R1b people. The Basques themselves have a legend that they are descended from the first farmers.
Back to Top
toyomotor View Drop Down
Moderator
Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 15 Feb 2014
Location: Tasmania, AUST.
Status: Offline
Points: 4905
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 2018 at 00:50
I've not seen anything regarding a Celtic sea migration, but obviously they had to move between Europe and the British Isles by sea.

As I wrote previously, AFAIK, all European languages evolved from the Proto Indo European language, but not to dwell on the Celts, in Ireland, prior to the Celts arrival, it's believed that the people spoke a Pictish type dialect.

And course, YDNA R1b is one of the archetypal indicators of Irish males, although there are other pockets of R1b elsewhere.
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.
Back to Top
Viewpoint View Drop Down
Housecarl
Housecarl


Joined: 20 Oct 2014
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 34
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Viewpoint Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 May 2018 at 17:00
As important, and probably more important than the way through the Rhone valley, was the route through the Garonne, and up the western side of France. Barry Cunliffe describes this in his book "Pytheas the Greek", showing how Marseilles was originally founded by Greek traders, and how a number of canals existed in that area, even as early as 600BC. The Welsh language has quite a bit of Greek influence, and Britain was known as a source of tin to many of the peoples of the mediterranean.
Back to Top
franciscosan View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar


Joined: 09 Feb 2015
Location: Littleton CO
Status: Offline
Points: 3214
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 May 2018 at 01:37
Massalia was founded by the Phocaeans, who in their penticonters were great sea voyagers.  The emblem of the Phocaeans was a seal (Phoke) which appeared on their coins, usually as a secondary symbol.  Instead of facing the Persian invasion, the Phocaeans immigrated enmass first to Alalia in Sardinia, and then to Elea (or Velia) on the front of the toe of Italy, c. 540 BC.

Of course, the Western-most Mediterranean was a Carthaginian lake, which restricted travel out into the Atlantic.

Is the Greek influence on Welsh 'merely' a matter of vocabulary?  Or does it get into the structure and grammar of the language?  Any more than both being Indo-European?  ("Iran" and "Ire"-land, are both from Aryan). 
Back to Top
Viewpoint View Drop Down
Housecarl
Housecarl


Joined: 20 Oct 2014
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 34
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Viewpoint Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 May 2018 at 07:52
You'd have to ask a Welsh language expert that question, unfortunately my Welsh isn't good enough. I do know that there are plurals that look quite like Greek; sglodyn for chip (French Fry), pl sglodion. There are basic words like dwr for water which resembles Greek hydyr. (I realise they didn't have french fries in the Bronze Age, there are lots of other words with similar plurals, but as I was a bit hungry, this was the first one I thought of)
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 11.10
Copyright ©2001-2017 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.125 seconds.