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Positive Discrimination or Affirmative Action

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Topic: Positive Discrimination or Affirmative Action
Posted By: Al Jassas
Subject: Positive Discrimination or Affirmative Action
Date Posted: 15 Feb 2010 at 23:35
Hello to you all
 
I have dilema towards this policy. On the one hand it is not fair, on the other hand millions benifited from it raising them from poverty and turning them away from a life in crime. I also may have been a benificiery since I come from a disadvantaged segment of the society and probably given preference during the final stages of admission to the university where I eventually studied.
 
So, what do you think?
 
Al-Jassas



Replies:
Posted By: hugoestr
Date Posted: 16 Feb 2010 at 00:22
Affirmative Action was needed, especially when it was implemented because qualified minorities couldn't get a job. As many people with jobs know, you get jobs through the people that you hang out with. If you are poor and you don't know anyone in positions of power, you are out of luck.

There were problems with how it was implemented, but then, there are problems with implementation of any kind of projects.

At this point it would be nice if they also took into consideration income levels and added other groups, such as people from Appalachia and people from rural backgrounds which face similar hurdles like discriminated minorities.


Posted By: es_bih
Date Posted: 16 Feb 2010 at 01:24
I'm not a big fan of it in most cases today. It isn't the same environment as it was 30 years ago. Not to mention that the people that do get the disadvantage aren't descendants of slave owners but recent arrivals who get the unfortunate designation that puts them in the same lot as people who've been here for generations. At the end of the day, especially in poorer areas you're taking a single piece of bread from one mouth to feed another; instead of feeding both.

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Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 16 Feb 2010 at 06:55
It's BS plain and simple when quality is compromised for the sake of filling a quota.

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"There was glory in pissing, Corabb decided as he watched the stream curve out and make that familiar but unique sound as it hit the ground." So true.


Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 16 Feb 2010 at 06:59
Originally posted by es_bih es_bih wrote:

I'm not a big fan of it in most cases today. It isn't the same environment as it was 30 years ago. Not to mention that the people that do get the disadvantage aren't descendants of slave owners but recent arrivals who get the unfortunate designation that puts them in the same lot as people who've been here for generations. At the end of the day, especially in poorer areas you're taking a single piece of bread from one mouth to feed another; instead of feeding both.


I hear you there.  My ex-gf who is an Iranian American missed out on a place in Georgetown for her bachelors whilst a classmate whose grades were clearly inferior made it on the basis of her skin colour being black. 


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"There was glory in pissing, Corabb decided as he watched the stream curve out and make that familiar but unique sound as it hit the ground." So true.


Posted By: calvo
Date Posted: 16 Feb 2010 at 07:49
On the whole, I don't agree with the overall method of how positive discrimination is implemented in the USA. It should "discriminate" on the basis of family income and residential level rather than the colour of skin. I can't see why quotas are made for black people of any economic background, but are not made for poor whites.
Ideally, it should be made for humble people of all racial and ethnic backgrounds. By giving someone a special privelige just because the colour of his skin only forments more racism.



Posted By: AksumVanguard
Date Posted: 16 Feb 2010 at 09:29
I would agree that it is misused at times but I think instead of giving jobs they should initiate a local program in the community of disadvantaged, but as it is known if  they have a certain quota, they would not just hand this favor out procuring to make a new business in the market that will be a threatening  competition for themselves. That all depends if it is a government or private business of course. 

However I feel this would not hold up for long as Mexicans become the new largest minority in the US, I'm not sure about the affirmative action elsewhere in other countries if there is one. It all depends on a lot of issues that  should be gauged by different circumstances.


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Posted By: hugoestr
Date Posted: 16 Feb 2010 at 12:51
Yes, I agree on the issue about income. That would include many African Americans and other minorities that do not have access to different networks.

There is another issue here as well. In the US public higher education has been under funded since the 70s and 80s. So, as someone else said, instead of having more opportunities for people, there are less.

I would really like to see the US move back to have easy access to higher education for the youth, such as the early boomers had back in the 60s. It would be good for the country in the long term.


Posted By: Ziegenbartami
Date Posted: 16 Feb 2010 at 13:43
Originally posted by hugoestr hugoestr wrote:

There is another issue here as well. In the US public higher education has been under funded since the 70s and 80s. So, as someone else said, instead of having more opportunities for people, there are less.

I would really like to see the US move back to have easy access to higher education for the youth, such as the early boomers had back in the 60s. It would be good for the country in the long term.

I'm not sure what you mean by US public higher education being under-funded, the universities seem to be making a killing off of students. Also, there seems to be plenty of access to higher education for youth, since nearly everyone I went to high school with has gone on to some kind of post-secondary education, not to mention the fact that a college degree is an absolute minimum requirement for jobs for which a high school diploma would have sufficed back in the 60s.


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"The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule."
- H.L. Mencken (1880-1956)


Posted By: lirelou
Date Posted: 16 Feb 2010 at 14:57
Affirmative Action should not be viewed as a permanent program, but the nature of any government 'give-out' is to enshrine it forever after having expanded it to the point of absurdity. I see a lot of misconceptions here. I graduated from High School in 1962 and other than private scholarships, college costs were partially paid with tuition that put such out of reach for my socio-economic group. The larger number of Baby-boomers entering college was likely a reflection of their own parents (or, more commonly, a parent) having attended college on the GI Bill in the wake of WWII. My own education was paid with the GI bill, though the Pell grants came into being when I attended college in the mid-70s. My first battery commander in the Army was a Black Captain, and my next sernior NCO was a Black FIrst Sergeant. WHen I became an officer six years later, my Battalion Commander was Black, and later my Brigade Commander was a Black Colonel who made General in 1968. I never served in a unit after the mid-60s that did not have at least one Black officer. And this was before Affirmative Action. Affirmative Action may have opened the door to some very fine officers, but it also gave us minority officers who could not write a sentence in standard English, and in an extreme case, a Black Major who refused to return the salutes of White enlisted soldiers. Meanwhile, the very best Black officers came from where they had always come from: the Military Academies, the prestigious university ROTC programs, and certain historical Black colleges, such as Howard, whose ROTC cadets were often themselves the sons and daughters of career military officers or mid to senior level civil servants. (At one time, there was a club of such gentlemen active in the Washington DC area. They were known as the 'Rebocks", or "Retired Black Officer Corps". Members included retired Black Admirals and General Officers, none of whom had been Affirmative Actions types. Colin Powell has praised the affirmative action program, but it is not what made him a general. A home atmosphere with a Jamaican-British attitude to work and doing ones very best with no excuses for failure did that. Once Affirmative-Action came along, the military had to get ridiculous about it. Women had to be considered a disadvantaged minority, thereby elevating the Yuppie Buffy's of the country to the same status as a Black share-cropper's son. Government non-bid contracts were set aside for "minority" firms, resulting in the Pentagon's contract for maintenance, trash removal, etc, going to a "minority" firm headed by a subcontinental Indian immigrant with an engineering degree. When that was questioned, a few African-Americans were put on the board, but the majority of "minority" participation remained the performance of janitorial services.

Affirmative Action, or any program resulting in formal or informal quotas, whether in the military of in college admissions, is a recipe for mediocrity. Recruiting and promotion lists should strive to select the very best without regard to race, religion, or national origin. That's all they need to do. Given the current make-up of the United States, just doing that will continue to provide a diverse leadership. 


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Phong trần mài một lưỡi gươm, Những loài giá áo túi cơm sá gì


Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 16 Feb 2010 at 21:51
Originally posted by Ziegenbartami Ziegenbartami wrote:

I'm not sure what you mean by US public higher education being under-funded, the universities seem to be making a killing off of students.
That would appear to be a very good symptom of the universities being underfunded.


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Citizen of Ankh-Morpork.

Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.



Posted By: drgonzaga
Date Posted: 17 Feb 2010 at 03:52
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Originally posted by Ziegenbartami Ziegenbartami wrote:

I'm not sure what you mean by US public higher education being under-funded, the universities seem to be making a killing off of students.
That would appear to be a very good symptom of the universities being underfunded.
 
On the other hand, it could also be a symptom of gross mismanagement and politico-bureaucratic incest, specially within the setting of state universities. Apropos, to the theme of the thread, the persistence of "black" colleges in the public sector can be viewed as an anachronistic financial waste perpetuating limited opportunity and debilitating the educational sector's resources.


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Honi soit qui mal y pense


Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 17 Feb 2010 at 04:14
Could be mismanagement, yes, though I would have thought it was more likely because of management having inappropriate goals, which are being pursued successfully.
 
Mind you I'm talking theoretically: I have little idea of the actual state of affairs in US universities, particularly nowadays.


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Citizen of Ankh-Morpork.

Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.



Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 17 Feb 2010 at 05:24
I'm with the Dr on that one having heard that the conduct within and amongst some major US higher education institutions and individuals would make the parliamentary expense scandalas a sign of MPs' unshakable honour and integrity .

And on the quota base for accepting people from lower income backgrounds, whilst I support such a notion whole heartedly from a moral perspective my instinct is still that candidate quality should never come in as a secondary consideration.


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"There was glory in pissing, Corabb decided as he watched the stream curve out and make that familiar but unique sound as it hit the ground." So true.



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