Print Page | Close Window

..

Printed From: WorldHistoria Forum
Category: REGIONAL HISTORY
Forum Name: Multi-Region To 1900 AD
Forum Description: Historic topics which encompass more than one region.
URL: http://www.worldhistoria.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=125373
Printed Date: 23 Aug 2019 at 18:26
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: ..
Posted By: Reck
Subject: ..
Date Posted: 22 Feb 2010 at 02:50

.




Replies:
Posted By: Frederick Roger
Date Posted: 22 Feb 2010 at 04:08
Ermm


Posted By: fantasus
Date Posted: 22 Feb 2010 at 04:35
I honestly doubt how much is really known about this Muhammad, what is legend and what is history. I have not heard he ever went outside Arabian peninsula - far from Afghanistan and far from "west". How much material is there found, contemporary with and about Muhammads leadership?


Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 22 Feb 2010 at 05:40
Of the list I'd probably pick Mohammed as having had the greatest impact on history. But I disagree with the reasons given.
 
Churchill and Stalin were inspirational war leaders, but otherwise Churchill had no significant political success, and Stalin, while he did have political success hasn't left any imprint on the world.
 
The US was not the first democratic state and Washington in particular was no democrat. The 'imperial presidency' of recent years does go back to a Federalist model to some extent, but it isn't Washington's creation.
 
Caesar didn't found the Roman Empire, and Alexander's conquests have left virtually no trace behind.
 
PS Your (Reck's) avatar is offensive to many people. It would be a good idea to change it.
 


-------------
Citizen of Ankh-Morpork.

Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.



Posted By: Scourge
Date Posted: 22 Feb 2010 at 06:38
Adolf Hitler and way to not put him up there. 


Posted By: Frederick Roger
Date Posted: 22 Feb 2010 at 07:01
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

 
PS Your (Reck's) avatar is offensive to many people. It would be a good idea to change it.
 
 
 
Who is it?


Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 22 Feb 2010 at 07:17
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Movsar_Barayev - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Movsar_Barayev
 
 


-------------
Citizen of Ankh-Morpork.

Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.



Posted By: Scourge
Date Posted: 22 Feb 2010 at 07:19
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Movsar_Barayev - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Movsar_Barayev
 
 


That isn't that bad. I had pictures of Ted Bundy as my avis before and that guy was a bigger asshole than that guy.


Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 22 Feb 2010 at 07:19
Originally posted by Scourge Scourge wrote:

Adolf Hitler and way to not put him up there. 
 
Because he was an utter failure, a lousy general and left no legacy whatsoever ecept for short term pain and suffering. (Short term in a historical sense that is. Plenty of the suffering lasted a lifetime.)


-------------
Citizen of Ankh-Morpork.

Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.



Posted By: Omar al Hashim
Date Posted: 22 Feb 2010 at 07:45

Originally posted by fantasus fantasus wrote:

I honestly doubt how much is really known about this Muhammad, what is legend and what is history. I have not heard he ever went outside Arabian peninsula - far from Afghanistan and far from "west". How much material is there found, contemporary with and about Muhammads leadership?
Volumes. His life is very well documented.
Originally posted by gcle gcle wrote:


Caesar didn't found the Roman Empire, and Alexander's conquests have left virtually no trace behind.

I'd disagree with that. The successor kingdoms are certainly the legacy of Alexanders conquests, and they count as a trace. Greek influence was injected into the whole the middle east because of his conquests. That was a dominating influence until at least the Abbasids, and to an extend persists today. Baghdad is pretty much the same place as Selucia, built by Alexanders general. Not to mention all the towns built by Alexander himself - Alexandria, Kandahar, Amman

PS. Reck I agree with gcle. Change your avatar to something more appropriate.



Posted By: fantasus
Date Posted: 22 Feb 2010 at 07:58
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim Omar al Hashim wrote:

Originally posted by fantasus fantasus wrote:

I honestly doubt how much is really known about this Muhammad, what is legend and what is history. I have not heard he ever went outside Arabian peninsula - far from Afghanistan and far from "west". How much material is there found, contemporary with and about Muhammads leadership?
Volumes. His life is very well documented.

So there was written volumes during his lifetime about him and how he ruled. (what I asked for). Any titles of those volumes? (except of course the Quran)


Posted By: King John
Date Posted: 22 Feb 2010 at 09:28
The avatar needs to be changed, Reck.


Posted By: Scourge
Date Posted: 22 Feb 2010 at 09:44
I've had hitler, ted bundy and himmler and the zodiac killer as my avis and nobody said anything.


Posted By: King John
Date Posted: 22 Feb 2010 at 10:12
People said things about your avatars, Scourge.  This is not an issue for public debate.


Posted By: Omar al Hashim
Date Posted: 22 Feb 2010 at 11:07
Originally posted by fantasus fantasus wrote:

Originally posted by Omar al Hashim Omar al Hashim wrote:

Originally posted by fantasus fantasus wrote:

I honestly doubt how much is really known about this Muhammad, what is legend and what is history. I have not heard he ever went outside Arabian peninsula - far from Afghanistan and far from "west". How much material is there found, contemporary with and about Muhammads leadership?
Volumes. His life is very well documented.
So there was written volumes during his lifetime about him and how he ruled. (what I asked for). Any titles of those volumes? (except of course the Quran)

The Quran does not deal with Muhammeds life or leadership except by giving him instructions in various circumstances. The history of the period was recorded in the Hadiths, which are the contempory records by those who knew him, and the work of the 1st and 2nd generation of Islamic scholars. The most famous hadith collection is the Sahih Bukhari, but hadiths are probably not written in the form you are looking for - they are organised by the lesson from an event, not by a chronological sequence of an event. The best book written for modern western audiences is Karen Armstrongs Muhammed: A Biography of the Prophet. I think it would be much easier to read this book for what you're after than to read directly from the Hadiths or the work of early islamic scholars (much of which is not in English or other European languages).


Posted By: SPQR
Date Posted: 22 Feb 2010 at 11:33
Gotta agree that Muhammad has left the greatest impact, although I am not a Muslim; he has contributed in the beginning of Islamic civilization and its religion. He has also left an indelible mark in the hearts and minds of Muslims around the world that transcends political or physical prowess.

-------------
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind.

- Albert Einstein


Posted By: Scourge
Date Posted: 22 Feb 2010 at 11:38
Adolf Hitler was the greatest leader ever. People just can't see it. 


Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 22 Feb 2010 at 20:51
So why did he fail so dismally?

-------------
Citizen of Ankh-Morpork.

Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.



Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 22 Feb 2010 at 20:57
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim Omar al Hashim wrote:

Originally posted by gcle gcle wrote:


Caesar didn't found the Roman Empire, and Alexander's conquests have left virtually no trace behind.

I'd disagree with that. The successor kingdoms are certainly the legacy of Alexanders conquests, and they count as a trace. Greek influence was injected into the whole the middle east because of his conquests. That was a dominating influence until at least the Abbasids, and to an extend persists today. Baghdad is pretty much the same place as Selucia, built by Alexanders general. Not to mention all the towns built by Alexander himself - Alexandria, Kandahar, Amman.

Hmm... at the risk of seeming to be quibbling I didn't say they left no trace ever, but they have left virtually no trace (meaning on today's world). With the exception of the persistence of some cities, essentially the Alexandrine world was effaced by Islam.


-------------
Citizen of Ankh-Morpork.

Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.



Posted By: drgonzaga
Date Posted: 23 Feb 2010 at 03:48
Well, Muhammad was just as much a "leader" as Confucius or Gautama, that is to say more effective dead than when alive. With regard to personal impact one may mark observations within the milieu of the Arabian peninsula itself, but it was the politics of his immediate successors that generated an external manifestation. Not that the initiator of this thread may not have over-blown motives similar to the nonsense found on this Internet site:
 
http://rupeenews.com/2008/09/12/expansion-of-early-islam-in-maps-6th-7th-century/ - http://rupeenews.com/2008/09/12/expansion-of-early-islam-in-maps-6th-7th-century/
 
Essentially, the leadership under the Rashidun and Umayyad (specially the Sufyanids) caliphs despite the fitnas (really an expression of traditional Arabian blood feuds) turned Islam into a multi-cultural phenomenon, and in that respect the name that should replace Muhammad above is that of
Muawiyah!


-------------
Honi soit qui mal y pense


Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 23 Feb 2010 at 05:50
Well, we were picking from a given list.

-------------
Citizen of Ankh-Morpork.

Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.



Posted By: drgonzaga
Date Posted: 23 Feb 2010 at 07:16
A "stacked" poll, perhaps? I did not "cast" the die when confronting this piddle of a Rubicon for the premise of Muhammad as a "leader" (with all the conditionals such a terminology entails) is simply put: preposterous. He certainly did not put an end to all the internecine tribal rivalries typical of the Arabian peninsula, although he did play them to his momentary advantages.

-------------
Honi soit qui mal y pense


Posted By: Reck
Date Posted: 24 Feb 2010 at 06:30
.


Posted By: Reck
Date Posted: 24 Feb 2010 at 06:49

.



Posted By: drgonzaga
Date Posted: 24 Feb 2010 at 07:52
That avatar is not much of an improvement either, Reck, but then there's much that needs improvement if the above post is any indicator.

-------------
Honi soit qui mal y pense


Posted By: SPQR
Date Posted: 24 Feb 2010 at 09:52
5.Churchill-after WWII Britain's empire split up and he supported Hitler but Gremans attacked to the Britain.He had to stop before attcking germans.

Churchill was one of the few outspoken critics of Hitler years before the war when everyone thought he was just a harmless rebel.

-------------
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind.

- Albert Einstein


Posted By: SPQR
Date Posted: 24 Feb 2010 at 09:58
Originally posted by SPQR SPQR wrote:

Gotta agree that Muhammad has left the greatest impact, although I am not a Muslim; he has contributed in the beginning of Islamic civilization and its religion. He has also left an indelible mark in the hearts and minds of Muslims around the world that transcends political or physical prowess.


using the same logic I applied for Muhammed

on another note, you could add Jesus, Moses, Buddha, Muhammad, Confucius, Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva, Quetzalcoatl, and many other religious beings that have left a profound spiritual leadership that resides in the hearts and minds of there adherents.

-------------
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind.

- Albert Einstein


Posted By: Reck
Date Posted: 24 Feb 2010 at 19:40
.


Posted By: drgonzaga
Date Posted: 25 Feb 2010 at 01:57
Reck, kindly cease insulting our intelligence for the sake of your weird agenda. This is a History Forum not a cocoon in which you may exercise your continued metamorphises! As in the Kalmyk thread, any grasp on history is obviously scurilous and unless you now wish to claim a pretension to the Moghul throne, kindly contribute rather than antagonize!

-------------
Honi soit qui mal y pense


Posted By: Reck
Date Posted: 25 Feb 2010 at 02:32
.


Posted By: drgonzaga
Date Posted: 25 Feb 2010 at 02:47
There is quite a difference between History and Hagiography, Reck, and unless you are the retired PR man for one Cassius Clay aka Mohammed Ali this question of "who is the greatest" is entirely superfluous.

-------------
Honi soit qui mal y pense


Posted By: Reck
Date Posted: 25 Feb 2010 at 02:50

.



Posted By: Omar al Hashim
Date Posted: 25 Feb 2010 at 09:20
Stop picking on the new guys drgonzaga!
 
For that matter, stop making personal attacks when someone says something that doesn't quite make sense. At somepoint in everyone's life you just don't know and always deserve the benefit of the doubt in that regard.


Posted By: Reginmund
Date Posted: 25 Feb 2010 at 19:20
How you compare those guys depends entirely on whether you include their posthumous impact in the assessment. The problem with posthumous impacts it that they can't really be ascribed to the person himself but his successors and how they made use of his legacy.
 
The question itself is meaningless though. It's important to study their achievements to understand history, but establishing who was "greater" teaches us nothing, it's just a pissing contest for the sake of having a pissing contest.


-------------
Sing, goddess, of Achilles' ruinous anger
Which brought ten thousand pains to the Achaeans,
And cast the souls of many stalwart heroes
To Hades, and their bodies to the dogs
And birds of prey


Posted By: Gharanai
Date Posted: 26 Feb 2010 at 06:53
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Essentially, the leadership under the Rashidun and Umayyad (specially the Sufyanids) caliphs despite the fitnas (really an expression of traditional Arabian blood feuds) turned Islam into a multi-cultural phenomenon, and in that respect the name that should replace Muhammad above is that of
Muawiyah!
 
Well my vote also goes to prophet Muhammad (PBUH), not only because I am a muslim and that's what shall I think but because as said before, the impact that his steps and intiations left on the world of today.
It is really hard to find people around the world upon whose name (even after centuries of his death) gets ready to die (Although I am against it and Prophet's words itself shows a rejection of such actions).
Now some people are motivated with some propagandas to do so but there are people who are truely devotional and spiritual about it.
 
That's who much he is loved, now lets see his lifetime. That in itself is an amazing story of how a middle class person unites the most versatile (whose only aim was fighting each other) people in the Arabian Peninsula and introduces a new religion.
His capability of command in the battle field is also beyond question where he with his tactical superiority challenged forces way greater than his, and still succeeded.
 
 
As far as your point drgonzaga, I disagree with you about hazrat Muawiyah's (R) being the person who multi-culturized Islam since it was done way back during hazrat Omer's (R) time when Islam got beyond the traditional Arabian borders (Most famous of them the Persian extension and the east Byzantine extension).
But then you see in such struggles soldiers are meant to follow a rule set by the leaders and it's the quality and capability of the leaders guidence and way that takes the soldiers toward victories.
It's always about those who initiate a struggle or a process and those are the ones who are remembered for the achievement, in prophet Muhammad's (PBUH) case it was his guidence that took these great Suhaba's to such victories and extends.
 
It's like you, me and everyone else does know who was the first person to step on the moon (Armstrong) but does anyone around know who was the second person who did (for sure most of general answers would be ??? but if you google a bit you will come with Buzz Aldrin, I think you got my point)?
 
 


-------------




Posted By: drgonzaga
Date Posted: 26 Feb 2010 at 08:01
Gharani wrote:
As far as your point drgonzaga, I disagree with you about hazrat Muawiyah's (R) being the person who multi-culturized Islam since it was done way back during hazrat Omer's (R) time when Islam got beyond the traditional Arabian borders (Most famous of them the Persian extension and the east Byzantine extension). But then you see in such struggles soldiers are meant to follow a rule set by the leaders and it's the quality and capability of the leaders guidence and way that takes the soldiers toward victories.
 
In that distincion, we would have to agree to disagree because, and here I will use Egyptian history as the foil, despite the prowess of Amr ibn al-As in 639-645, the grafting of Islam within an Egyptian cultural milieu does belong within the ambit of the Umayyads. The Coptic majority did not disappear within the the confines of the 7th century, and the process of conversion and acculturation is an 8th century phenomenon. Yes, in a way we are parsing here but the conversion of the Copts (particularly the peasantry) was a process that required time and was essentially unknown during the years of the Righteous Hazrats. Not that the Umayyads were not exposed to periodic revolts between AD 725-750. Nevertheless, with the advent of Arabic as the official state language in 706 you witness the incubus of an Islamicized Egypt. By the way, I chose Muawiyah for the simple reason of the rapport he established within Syria and the utilization of non-Arabs within the political hierarchy. 


-------------
Honi soit qui mal y pense



Print Page | Close Window

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Copyright ©2001-2018 Web Wiz Ltd. - https://www.webwiz.net